Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[Count Balerion]

One thing I've wondered for a while is where the "what's this plot" thing came from. I think I first heard of that from watching Glidus. One of those chaps.

[Ser Drewy]

On 7/21/2020 at 7:33 PM, The Dragon Demands said:

Dear God...Redanian Intelligence seems to have confirmed the leak about the Long Night prequel pilot, Bloodmoon.  The leak I made last year....

https://redanianintelligence.com/2020/07/21/new-tidbits-about-the-cancelled-game-of-thrones-prequel-leaf/

Bloodmoon's answer for "diversity"....was to cast only black people to play Children of the Forest.

They...they went with this instead of the Valyria prequel, which would have shown us Sothoryos.

@Ran @Linda

Huh, that's baffling. 

Honestly, I think because of the choices made on GOT anything to do with the Others/Children was always going to be a hard sell. It was very underdeveloped in the show, and it's tough to care about the origins of villains who had no real depth and who endangered Westeros for literally one night. If the main series didn't care about them, particularly, why should the audiences for a spin-off?

[Ser Drewy]

On 7/26/2020 at 2:20 AM, Count Balerion said:

One thing I've wondered for a while is where the "what's this plot" thing came from. I think I first heard of that from watching Glidus. One of those chaps.

You mean the Benioff comment? IIRC it was from an "Inside the Episode" interview from the S6 finale. He's talking about the sept explosion and how all this weird stuff is happening and the audience is wondering "what the hell is this plot?" as it comes together. People meme'd it because the whole plot makes no real sense (why does the High Sparrow send his thugs to get Cersei when last time he did that a few episodes ago, she had Gregor kill one, why does Lancel chase a random boy into wildfire chamber etc) and it was a funny summary of their writing that season: so many of the plots just didn't make any sense. It was just making fun of Benioff for lacking self-awareness. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Ser Drewy

[Angel Eyes]

39 minutes ago, Ser Drewy said:

You mean the Benioff comment? IIRC it was from an "Inside the Episode" interview from the S6 finale. He's talking about the sept explosion and how all this weird stuff is happening and the audience is wondering "what the hell is this plot?" as it comes together. People meme'd it because the whole plot makes no real sense (why does the High Sparrow send his thugs to get Cersei when last time he did that a few episodes ago, she had Gregor kill one, why does Loras chase a random boy into wildfire chamber etc) and it was a funny summary of their writing that season: so many of the plots just didn't make any sense. It was just making fun of Benioff for lacking self-awareness. 

It was Lancel who chased the boy into the wildfire chamber; Loras was upstairs in the main Sept.

[Ser Drewy]

3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

It was Lancel who chased the boy into the wildfire chamber; Loras was upstairs in the main Sept.

Whoops! Will fix that.

[Count Balerion]

Aha! I wasn't seeing the "Inside the episode" back then. I do recall that Cersei's motive for arming the Faith made less sense in the show. Although the sept explosion itself did, I thought, make a certain sense: I could see Cersei just blowing all her enemies up like that. Contrasted with Evil Dany, which came out of the blue. But if GRRM does it I'm guessing the narrative logic will be more coherent. "Narrative logic" ain't GOT's middle name.

[Cas Stark]

4 hours ago, Count Balerion said:

Aha! I wasn't seeing the "Inside the episode" back then. I do recall that Cersei's motive for arming the Faith made less sense in the show. Although the sept explosion itself did, I thought, make a certain sense: I could see Cersei just blowing all her enemies up like that. Contrasted with Evil Dany, which came out of the blue. But if GRRM does it I'm guessing the narrative logic will be more coherent. "Narrative logic" ain't GOT's middle name.

Yes, blowing up the sept made certain Cersei type sense, as a short term tactician, blowing up her enemies would be appealing.  Of course Lancel being lured underground to see the wildfire was dumb, but the real problem was that the aftermath was not believable.  Cersei should have been able to barely cling to power only through increasing use of dire force and torture, we should have seen riots, mass exodus of remaining nobles, etc. etc.  Instead, she became so powerful that Dany, with 3 dragons, the unsullied, the Dothraki, the Greyjoy fleet, the Tyrells and the Martells had to bow down and try to parlay with the stupid cow to get what by that point would have been the sad remnants of the Lannister army. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Cas Stark

[BlackLightning]

On 7/21/2020 at 1:28 AM, SeanF said:

I liked Season 2, mostly, but not Qarth.  Apart from the House of the Undying Chapter, Dany's story in Qarth in books is not especially gripping, but in hindsight, Qarth displays everything the show runners would get wrong with the series as a whole.

1. Pointless conflict - between the Spice King and Daenerys.  Negotiation and diplomacy in the books, replaced with threats and bluster in the show.

2. Surprise, with no groundwork laid for it - Pyat Pree and Xaro killing the leaders of Qarth, murdering the Dothraki, stealing the dragons

3. An important element from the book is introduced, before it leads nowhere - Qaithe

4. Unexplained shifts in character - Doreah goes from having almost a romantic relationship with Daenerys to betraying her, for ......reasons.

5. Leaps in logic - Xaro has taken control of Qarth, but somehow, Dany and her men are able to slip into his bedroom and take him and Doreah prisoner. The Dothraki, murdered in one episode, regenerate at the end.

6. The lack of magic and horror - the scenes with Dany in the House of the Undying should have been similar to The Shining or Pan's Labyrinth. It should've been something of a haunted house.

 

[Angel Eyes]

15 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

6. The lack of magic and horror - the scenes with Dany in the House of the Undying should have been similar to The Shining or Pan's Labyrinth. It should've been something of a haunted house.

 

You can possibly blame that on Benioff; he worked on Troy and they toned down a lot of the supernatural elements in that film.

[Angel Eyes]

16 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Yes, blowing up the sept made certain Cersei type sense, as a short term tactician, blowing up her enemies would be appealing.  Of course Lancel being lured underground to see the wildfire was dumb, but the real problem was that the aftermath was not believable.  Cersei should have been able to barely cling to power only through increasing use of dire force and torture, we should have seen riots, mass exodus of remaining nobles, etc. etc.  Instead, she became so powerful that Dany, with 3 dragons, the unsullied, the Dothraki, the Greyjoy fleet, the Tyrells and the Martells had to bow down and try to parlay with the stupid cow to get what by that point would have been the sad remnants of the Lannister army. 

I'm not quite sure why the smallfolk supported Euron and Cersei in Season 7, as shown with everybody cheering when he's parading Yara, Ellaria and the Sand Snakes through the streets. All the stuff she did in Season 7 made her weak showing in Season 8 all the more anti-climactic.

[Count Balerion]

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I'm not quite sure why the smallfolk supported Euron and Cersei in Season 7, as shown with everybody cheering when he's parading Yara, Ellaria and the Sand Snakes through the streets. All the stuff she did in Season 7 made her weak showing in Season 8 all the more anti-climactic.

 

20 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Yes, blowing up the sept made certain Cersei type sense, as a short term tactician, blowing up her enemies would be appealing.  Of course Lancel being lured underground to see the wildfire was dumb, but the real problem was that the aftermath was not believable.  Cersei should have been able to barely cling to power only through increasing use of dire force and torture, we should have seen riots, mass exodus of remaining nobles, etc. etc.  Instead, she became so powerful that Dany, with 3 dragons, the unsullied, the Dothraki, the Greyjoy fleet, the Tyrells and the Martells had to bow down and try to parlay with the stupid cow to get what by that point would have been the sad remnants of the Lannister army. 

This was the absolute worst thing about season 7. I was always asking "What about the sept?" Hot Pie mentions it, but everyone else shrugs. The nobility as well as smallfolk ought to have been outraged. And Jaime or Bronn casually mentions that there's no more High Septon. And we need to go after a wight because we need Cersei? What? They ought to have been able to essentially ignore Cersei and fight the WW, and then mop her up afterwards. Weird.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Count Balerion said:

 

This was the absolute worst thing about season 7. I was always asking "What about the sept?" Hot Pie mentions it, but everyone else shrugs. The nobility as well as smallfolk ought to have been outraged. And Jaime or Bronn casually mentions that there's no more High Septon. And we need to go after a wight because we need Cersei? What? They ought to have been able to essentially ignore Cersei and fight the WW, and then mop her up afterwards. Weird.

Could have parlayed for wildfire.

[Cas Stark]

2 hours ago, Count Balerion said:

 

This was the absolute worst thing about season 7. I was always asking "What about the sept?" Hot Pie mentions it, but everyone else shrugs. The nobility as well as smallfolk ought to have been outraged. And Jaime or Bronn casually mentions that there's no more High Septon. And we need to go after a wight because we need Cersei? What? They ought to have been able to essentially ignore Cersei and fight the WW, and then mop her up afterwards. Weird.

I assume they became entranced with the big parlay scene and that was all they cared about....because, showing Cersei who would go from momentary triumph after the sept fire descending into panic as she continues to lose her grip on power due to her own actions, & needed to be more and more draconian in her actions, would have been more realistic, more interesting, given Lena something to do besides stare out the window and drink, and been part of an actual character arc.  But for that to happen they would have to significantly rework how the parlay went down, or give it up as a set piece.  Cersei could still be 'dangerous' at least in KL because of the wildfire and her alliance with Euron, but turning her into Dany's equal or better in terms of strength of arms and having Dany be the one who basically bent the knee, and then having out of the stupid parley flow the wight hunt.  Just no.  

Edited July 28, 2020 by Cas Stark

[Angel Eyes]

23 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I assume they became entranced with the big parlay scene and that was all they cared about....because, showing Cersei who would go from momentary triumph after the sept fire descending into panic as she continues to lose her grip on power due to her own actions, & needed to be more and more draconian in her actions, would have been more realistic, more interesting, given Lena something to do besides stare out the window and drink, and been part of an actual character arc.  But for that to happen they would have to significantly rework how the parlay went down, or give it up as a set piece.  Cersei could still be 'dangerous' at least in KL because of the wildfire and her alliance with Euron, but turning her into Dany's equal or better in terms of strength of arms and having Dany be the one who basically bent the knee, and then having out of the stupid parley flow the wight hunt.  Just no.  

Well, if you put them one-on-one, they would be equally matched in strength of arms; that is: none. 

[Count Balerion]

It was very weird how Cersei somehow became Dany's equal. The Lannisters took Highgarden in a walk, ostensibly because the Tyrells are rubbish from a military point of view, and really because plot, because Benioff.

While we're on the subject of Highgarden, am I remembering correctly that it was essentially a rather arid-looking plain? Not much in the way of ... garden? (Not that that's on a level with basic problems of plot and characterisation.) And apparently the plain of Highgarden turned into the desert of KL in season 8. In other words, they just took a photo of HG, jazzed it up a bit, and voila': KL.

[Angel Eyes]

13 minutes ago, Count Balerion said:

It was very weird how Cersei somehow became Dany's equal. The Lannisters took Highgarden in a walk, ostensibly because the Tyrells are rubbish from a military point of view, and really because plot, because Benioff.

While we're on the subject of Highgarden, am I remembering correctly that it was essentially a rather arid-looking plain? Not much in the way of ... garden? (Not that that's on a level with basic problems of plot and characterisation.) And apparently the plain of Highgarden turned into the desert of KL in season 8. In other words, they just took a photo of HG, jazzed it up a bit, and voila': KL.

The geography of King’s Landing is constantly inconsistent throughout the show’s run. Sometimes there’s an arid plain, sometimes there’s forest, sometimes hills.

[Count Balerion]

Yah. In season 8 they seem to have just taken Highgarden and done stuff to it.

[Count Balerion]

And: apparently a book on GOT is coming out shortly. It's by James Hibberd, who iirc was the chap who ran a forum on GOT in which no questions were allowed. The Dragon Chap posted on it in reddit.

(I don't know anyone in that reddit, at least by name, and I don't know how wise it is for the Dragon to call everyone in there "has-been kneelers", in terms of persuading them to do something. But that's by the way.)

 

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Count Balerion said:

Yah. In season 8 they seem to have just taken Highgarden and done stuff to it.

Wait a minute... when were they at Highgarden in Season 8?

[Count Balerion]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Wait a minute... when were they at Highgarden in Season 8?

They weren't. They took the HG from season 7 and fixed it up. I'm not sure of the details. I think the VFX team did it. It's been a while since I watched that video.