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Let's speculate about Illyrio's chests

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1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

After 5 years on the forum, I think I've just hit peak disagreement with a fellow poster.  More than words can express -

Yea, I get that alot lol

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

No, the Dothraki do not respect property rights (why would this even be a surprise?)

Eroeh was Dany's property because the khal supported her claim. When the khal was sick and powerless. Eroeh was seized, gang-raped and murdered. Horses and slaves that were Drogo's property were stolen too. Rakharo explains that this is the Dothraki way: 'It is the right of the strong to take from the weak.'

They do respect property, I just gave a few examples.

Well, yea when the khal cant ride his rules can't be enforced. Thats not a dothraki thing, thats asoiaf thing

 

 

"Protector of the Realm," she read. "Is this meant to be your shield, my lord? A piece of paper?" She ripped the letter in half, ripped the halves in quarters, and let the pieces flutter to the floor.

"Those were the king's words," Ser Barristan said, shocked.

"We have a new king now," Cersei Lannister replied.

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On 5/3/2019 at 1:29 PM, Seams said:

Because of the consistent description of baby Aegon's head being dashed against a wall by Gregor Clegane, I have always suspected a Humpty Dumpty ending (a nursery rhyme in English speaking countries) is in store for this fAegon. Whether it will come at The Wall in the north or at a smaller wall, I suspect that all the king's horses and all the king's men won't be able to put him together again. It is known.

Oh i get it ... Aegon = Egg and Humpty Dumpty = a egg lol

On 5/3/2019 at 1:29 PM, Seams said:

Ghoyan Drohe = Dragon Hey Ho

LOL

maybe it means "go and die"

There is a gift for the boy in one of the chests. Some candied ginger. He was always fond of it." Illyrio sounded oddly sad. "I thought I might continue on to 'go and die' with you. A farewell feast before you start downriver.

But yea, I also believe fAegon is gonna get his head smashed, most likely by the Mountain Zombie ... ending fAegon's plot so GRRM can freaking move on to ADOS with less characters to worry about. 

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16 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea, I get that alot lol

:dunno:  That previous post hit a nerve, that's all. Saying that by default we have to assume the Dothraki would be respectful of women's property rights is to credit them with enlightened values they simply don't have.

16 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

They do respect property, I just gave a few examples.

Well, yea when the khal cant ride his rules can't be enforced....

Almost back in agreement here. There are no property rights, only strength. The khal is the strongest man: he can say who owns a horse or a slave or a gift - and the decision is respected because of the strength of the khal. When he falls, only the bloodriders still respect the 'rights' he gave Dany.

16 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

... Thats not a dothraki thing, thats asoiaf thing

 

 

"Protector of the Realm," she read. "Is this meant to be your shield, my lord? A piece of paper?" She ripped the letter in half, ripped the halves in quarters, and let the pieces flutter to the floor.

"Those were the king's words," Ser Barristan said, shocked.

"We have a new king now," Cersei Lannister replied.

Oh yes.  Cersei would like the Dothraki very much. As long as she got to be khal.

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On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 2:44 PM, Megorova said:

I think that "candied ginger" is a metaphor for Blackfyre sword. The boy was always fond of that sword, so Illyrio is giving it to him. And the gift for Dany could be Dark Sister.

I think it's more likely a euphemism for Young Griff being "sweet" for red heads.  Just like his old man.

In this case the candied ginger Illyrio is sending Young Griff is Duck.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

:dunno:  That previous post hit a nerve, that's all.

I speak bluntly. Never meant to instigate

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Saying that by default we have to assume the Dothraki would be respectful of women's property rights is to credit them with enlightened values they simply don't have.

But they do. Its not by default or assumptions, Dany says grab "my" dragoneggs. Dont burn "my" weapons. Drogo says dont take Silver. She ownes stuff

 

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Almost back in agreement here. There are no property rights, only strength. The khal is the strongest man: he can say who owns a horse or a slave or a gift - and the decision is respected because of the strength of the khal. When he falls, only the bloodriders still respect the 'rights' he gave Dany.

Oh yes.  Cersei would like the Dothraki very much. As long as she got to be khal.

After any law falls property gets lost, its not just dothraki and its not just Cersei, it happend in Merreen, in the Iron Islands, in the North. 

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4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

6 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Saying that by default we have to assume the Dothraki would be respectful of women's property rights is to credit them with enlightened values they simply don't have. 

But they do. Its not by default or assumptions, Dany says grab "my" dragoneggs. Dont burn "my" weapons. Drogo says dont take Silver. She ownes stuff

What? Seriously?

She said "my son" as well - a woman should have some rights to her own child, you'd think? But not according to the Dothraki: Jorah warns that the baby will be thrown to the dogs as soon as it is born.

The Dothraki are not some band of early feminists who might just support a woman's independent right to property - it's the raping, pillaging, murdering, destroying and enslaving that really are typical of Dothraki values.

All Dany's rights are borrowed from Drogo. When he dies, she gets the right to be Dosh Khaleen, and the protection of her kas until she is. Everything else disappears in a puff of smoke - even before Drogo dies, she's threatened with being staked out to be gang-raped and then eaten by vermin.

Justice and respect are not appearing anywhere here. It's the right of the strong to take from the weak. That's all there is.

Quote

After any law falls property gets lost, its not just dothraki and its not just Cersei, it happend in Merreen, in the Iron Islands, in the North. 

The law may have fallen in those other places, but Dothraki law/custom was upheld when Drogo died. Wannabe khals seize the power and the property, ideally the dead khal's heir dies, and the khaleesi must fend for herself.

Anyway, enough already. Let's call it a day; we've said everything that's to be said on this topic; let's not say it twice.

 

Edited by Springwatch
word

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The candied ginger. I think it's to show that YG likes hot food - he loves heat, like a true Targ. (I think Tyrion's enthusiasm for pepper in agot says the same thing: secret Targ.)

Maybe some food code or word play in there too

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3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

The law may have fallen in those other places, but Dothraki law/custom was upheld when Drogo died. Wannabe khals seize the power and the property, ideally the dead khal's heir dies, and the khaleesi must fend for herself.

Exactly.

 

Over the carcass of the horse, they built a platform of hewn logs; trunks of smaller trees and limbs from the greater, and the thickest straightest branches they could find. They laid the wood east to west, from sunrise to sunset. On the platform they piled Khal Drogo's treasures: his great tent, his painted vests, his saddles and harness, the whip his father had given him when he came to manhood, the arakh he had used to slay Khal Ogo and his son, a mighty dragonbone bow. Aggo would have added the weapons Drogo's bloodriders had given Dany for bride gifts as well, but she forbade it. "Those are mine," she told him, "and I mean to keep them." Another layer of brush was piled about the khal's treasures, and bundles of dried grass scattered over them.

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On 5/3/2019 at 3:59 PM, Lord Varys said:

Prior to FaB the best guess as to where Dany's eggs came from was that Varys stole those eggs found on Dragonstone - which were likely brought to KL for the attempts to hatch them - during/after the Sack. Since it is common knowledge that the Baratheons don't have any dragon eggs.

Poppycock... the best explanation has always been that they originated in the Shadowlands beyond Asshai, and that Illyrio, a fabulously wealthy trader in dragonbone, among other things, who has business interests and partners in the Jade Sea, aquired them on the open market and gave them to Daenerys as a lavish bride gift to help cement the cornerstone of his elaborate plot to enthrone Aegon--a much more satisfying plot device than the original idea, which was to have the wee Targling stumble upon the eggs in the Dothraki Sea. 

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7 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Poppycock... the best explanation has always been that they originated in the Shadowlands beyond Asshai, and that Illyrio, a fabulously wealthy trader in dragonbone, among other things, who has business interests and partners in the Jade Sea, aquired them on the open market and gave them to Daenerys as a lavish bride gift to help cement the cornerstone of his elaborate plot to enthrone Aegon--a much more satisfying plot device than the original idea, which was to have the wee Targling stumble upon the eggs in the Dothraki Sea. 

Well, even if that were true - that went down the toilet with FaB as well, didn't it ;-)?

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@Springwatch hmm not food but maybe herb symbolism 

Ginger : symbolizes strength, prosperity, and diversity, white ginger flowers represent true love while red ginger flowers represent fiery passion. Ginger flowers is substitution for roses.

Cherry : represent love and divination, cherry blossoms symbolizes short life of humans that is also filled with beautiful memories. In China and Japan, cherry trees are connected to Ho-o bird that is a messanger of the Sun, symbolizes justice and fidelity. Turkish city, Giresun, means cherry.

Bracken : House Bracken is tied to Golden Company, since their founder was Aegor Bittersteel Rivers. Bracken symbolizes healing, rune magic and prophetic dreams, although Daemon II had prophetic dreams, as well as Daeron Drunk, we are yet to have access to Aegon's dreams.  

A bracken is a fern, fern symbolizes eternal youth, rain making and exorcism, with the second meaning, ferns are connected to jade stone in Turkic culture, since jade stone is known as rain stone in this culture. Jade stone is also known as dream stone and seem to be connected to glass candles. But we don't know anything about Aegon's dreams yet.

 

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On 5/3/2019 at 1:29 PM, Seams said:

Illyrio's tone here is an important clue. I think he knows (or suspects) that this Young Griff / Aegon is fated to die young. Maybe the death of Aegon / Young Griff is even part of a plan Illyrio has hatched - we know that only death can pay for life and, so far, Viserys, Drogo and Rhaego died to move Dany's cyvasse piece closer to the throne. Maybe the plan is to sacrifice Young Griff for the next step in Dany's journey. Or to allow Tyrion to advance in the game. (Doesn't Tyrion like to open a game of cyvasse by sending a dragon flying toward his opponent? Is fAegon his "dragon" cyvasse piece, sent toward Westeros?)

Ginger. Keep in mind that Hansel and Gretl were attracted to the witch's gingerbread house before they were put in a cage and fattened up for her singer stew gingerbread cookies. Kind of sinister, that candied ginger.

Because of the consistent description of baby Aegon's head being dashed against a wall by Gregor Clegane, I have always suspected a Humpty Dumpty ending (a nursery rhyme in English speaking countries) is in store for this fAegon. Whether it will come at The Wall in the north or at a smaller wall, I suspect that all the king's horses and all the king's men won't be able to put him together again. It is known.

Ghoyan Drohe is another weird hint. It is a ruined place, destroyed by dragon fire like some of the other key landmarks in ASOIAF history. I can believe that Illyrio and Griff chose it for this rendezvous because it is deserted and they didn't want a lot of people to see them together, or to see the fugitive Tyrion. But it is also a dead place, and that is always where rebirth starts in ASOIAF. I suspect the name of the place is an anagram: Ghoyan Drohe = Dragon Hey Ho. This does not necessarily spell doom for Young Griff in and of itself. I do think it spells a beginning of Tyrion's journey to fulfilling the Targ side of his heritage, which might necessitate a death paying for his new life.

(As I'm writing, I'm also pondering the "grey hand oho" possibility in the name Ghoyan Drohe. Is Illyrio a variation on the Coldhands archetype in this excerpt? Coldhands is able to meet people at a door and guide them to the next door, but he can't go through those doors. Coldhands also met Bran and his companions at a dead place: the Night Fort and Black Gate. Illyrio meets Tyrion when he emerges from his wine cask hiding place and delivers him to Ghoyan Drohe, but apparently goes no further. The name holds other possibilities as well - I think ambiguity may be a hallmark of GRRM's wordplay.)

Gifts and feasts are often fraught with peril in ASOIAF. Here we have Illyrio bearing gifts and offering to share a feast. Uh oh.

We know that Illyrio gave Dany three dragon eggs in a chest, along with some lovely silk fabric, as wedding gifts. We soon learn that the six chests he has given this group contain fabric (clothing) and . . . ginger? armor? silver coins?

As others have already wondered, where are the eggs? I suspect armor is linked to eggs because it is a type of shell. Basically, Illyrio is giving this group egg shells, but not the inner yolk and albumen necessary to hatch a living dragon. He doesn't even provide the gold coins known as dragons - the coins in the chests are specifically described as being silver.

I know that few people share the depth and breadth of my wordplay obsession, but I am intrigued by the "egg" anagram possibilities in the ginger phrase: "some candied ginger." It's another phrase with so many anagram possibilities that it's difficult to pin down any specific clue. Taken together with Illyrio's "oddly sad" tone, I think there is a strong possibility that the coded hint in "some candied ginger" might have to do with "dead egg" or "Aegon receding" or some other sad fate. (I am open to other suggestions, though - gems? diamonds? ice dragon? grace? It's fun to play with the anagram generator, if anyone else cares to experiment with other possibilities.)

For those not open to anagram hints, of course, "ginger" is also a nickname for a person with red hair. We know that Jon Snow had a memorable encounter with a red haired woman who was "kissed by fire" and then moved on to encounter Melisandre who seems to do a lot with red and with fire kisses. Catelyn has auburn (reddish brown) hair of which, we are told, Ned is very fond. She is kissed by fire when Beric Dondarrion passes along his fire kiss and brings her back to life. Tyrion is married to Sansa who also has auburn hair. So Illyrio commenting on fAegon's supposed fondness for candied ginger could be thrown in for the sake of symbolism: fAegon needed some "ginger" in his arc as he makes a journey comparable to the journeys of other Iron Throne aspirants in his generation.

On the positive side, perhaps, ginger is also a root. We know through Davos that roots in the form of onions can represent life. Bran sends a dish of root vegetables to Little and Big Walder at the harvest feast at Winterfell but that is because he doesn't like them. Turnips (also known as neeps) may symbolize an entrance to the Otherworld (Pennytree = neep entry). Maybe Illyrio is providing ginger so fAegon can enter the Otherworld. What will happen there, we do not know.

More potential symbolism: "oaken chests with iron hasps." If you are a Dunk and Egg fan, as I am, you will remember the "shield rhyme" that is like Dunk's prayer: "Oak and iron, guard me well or else I'm dead and doomed to hell." Ser Robyn Rhysling, of House Rhysling, is part of Dunk's team in the Trial of Seven. House Rhysling members blazon their arms with an oaken door banded with iron, in a grey stone doorway, on black masonry. I apologize if I'm belaboring this point made elsewhere, but I think the oak and iron combination is indicative of a strong shield; shields are symbolic doors; and only certain people can open doors. (Just recently, in another thread, I've been pondering Victarion and Jon Snow as door-openers with Victarion attacking the Shield Islands and Jon Snow reopening the Shield Hall.) The six oak and iron chests may represent the opening of six doors - Illyrio couldn't open them, but someone in Jon Connington's group (or the combination of people) can do it. Similarly, Dany is able to hatch the eggs that no one else could hatch and she seems to be uniquely qualified to open the doors in the House of the Undying. There is probably Pandora's Box symbolism at work here, though: what evils are unloosed when each chest or door is opened?

I like this a lot,( especially the stuff in the first paragraph) every thread I see about (f)aegon assumes he is Varys and Ilyrios endgame, would be interesting if it were actually the other way around.

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On 5/6/2019 at 10:45 PM, Springwatch said:

The candied ginger. I think it's to show that YG likes hot food - he loves heat, like a true Targ. (I think Tyrion's enthusiasm for pepper in agot says the same thing: secret Targ.)

Maybe some food code or word play in there too

 

18 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

@Springwatch hmm not food but maybe herb symbolism 

Ginger : symbolizes strength, prosperity, and diversity, white ginger flowers represent true love while red ginger flowers represent fiery passion. Ginger flowers is substitution for roses.

 

This kind of symbolism goes a long way to explaining why GRRM includes so much 'foody detail' in his books. Indeed, just as lemons are a water symbol (or ice symbol, for ASOIAF purposes), ginger - and cinnamon - are linked with fire.

The etymology of ginger throw up this gem, too: "The English origin of the word, "ginger", is from the mid-14th century, from Old English gingifer, from Medieval Latin gingiber, from Greek zingiberis, from Prakrit (Middle Indic) singabera, from Sanskrit srngaveram, from srngam "horn" and vera- "body", from the shape of its root." (Wikipedia).

And 'candied' is basically just a synonym for 'crystallised'. So in 'candied ginger' we potentially have crystallised fiery horn-bodies. 

Does this increase the chances of dragon eggs being in one of those chests?

Edited by Sandy Clegg

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On 5/2/2019 at 7:20 AM, rotting sea cow said:

I haven't seen a discussion about so here we go

When Tyrion and Illyrio meet Duck and Haldon, Illyrio gives six chests to them

First confirmed item: Candied ginger

Later

So, according to Haldon and Duck, the chests contain armor, proper court clothing and gifts for Daenerys (more on that later)

The clothing

So, the clothes meant for Tyrion were from some child and they sewed in the form of a motley. But also:

So, also high quality clothes for Aegon and even jewels

So, in the end there was some coin in the chests. They used that money to bet with Qavos and get some more reliable info re Daenerys.

Finally

Confirmed items

- Candied ginger

- Clown clothes for Tyrion

- A chain of rubies for Aegon as well as fine clothes

- Very likely, fine clothes for everyone as well as armor

- Travel money to cover any eventuality, like hiring guards, buy horses or passage in another ship, bribe some lesser officials (the big fish is bribed by Illyrion himself), etc. Not enough to hire a free company.

What else?

There is mention of gifts for Daenerys, what are those.

Well, the first "gift" is that his "nephew", the last of his family is alive. The second is that a professional army has been hired to help them to conquest the IT. But I think there are other presents.

- One can be some extra dragon eggs, which (in Illyrio's mind) can be hatched as easily as the one he gave to her for first time.

- A crown. Which one? I don't know which crown Aegon VI will use but I'm sure that Illyrio recovered Rhaella's crown for Dany, which should have been relatively easy for him. Dany would have been truly grateful for that in case Aegon and Dany met as planned but now, it is probably that Aegon will give that crown to Arianne, adding insult to the injury.

Do we have textual evidence that the square-cut rubies came from the chest, or that Aegon had not been wearing it previously? As some have pointed out, these rubies are strongly associated with glamours (Stannis' "Lightbringer" and Mance's Rattleshirt disguise). 

The ruby choker makes very little sense as a glamour if Aegon put it on recently.

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On 6/19/2019 at 12:42 AM, Forlong the Fat said:

Do we have textual evidence that the square-cut rubies came from the chest, or that Aegon had not been wearing it previously? As some have pointed out, these rubies are strongly associated with glamours (Stannis' "Lightbringer" and Mance's Rattleshirt disguise). 

The ruby choker makes very little sense as a glamour if Aegon put it on recently.

No, the rubbies are Illyrio's gifts and they are likely a nod to Rhaegar's rubbies, maybe Aegon will use them to not to be seen as a Targaryen combined with many different clothing Illyrio provide for him. Connington and his dragon will remain a mystery for sometime until their grand entrance to KL maybe? 

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