Sansa breaking her oath and the Anti-Daenerys conspiracy

[MinscS2]

12 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Are we really trying to justify the behavior of fictional women by assigning levels of appropriate response to traumatic events in their lives? 

Who experienced the more terrifying assaults, and how does that affect her behavior? 

No. 

Like I said, in the real world both Daenerys and Sansa would have severe PTSD and probably require weekly visits to the psychologist.
These girls have endured more trauma than anyone ever should.

My initial response was simply directed at @starklover saying that "Sansa has suffered more than Daenerys", which came across as hasty.

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

12 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Like I said, in the real world both Daenerys and Sansa would have severe PTSD and probably require weekly visits to the psychologist.
These girls have endured more trauma than anyone ever should.

My initial response was simply directed at @starklover saying that "Sansa has suffered more than Daenerys", which came across as hasty.

I get that. I also get that it wasn’t meant to be offensive, and that these are fictional characters. 

Comparing the traumas a person has experienced to determine whether they were “bad enough to justify” or “worse than yours” is grotesque. 

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

31 minutes ago, north of the wall said:

Well thats true. I dont think either way you look at it deserves the type of hate Sansa gets though. I'm fine with her breaking the promise or looking for loopholes (really me looking for loopholes for these types of threads) I don't think breaking a promise makes you a bad person, or means she wasn't in the right. 

I'm pretty sure the Glovers were the only Northern house North of Winterfell to not attend Winterfell, but there would have been other house further south who didn't come. I didn't see the Reeds.

It is disappointing that we never got to meet Howland Reed, but once Jon’s parentage was out in the open there wasn’t much need to involve him. 

Plus his keep drifts through the marshes and is pretty much impossible to find. 

[dbunting]

3 hours ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

It is disappointing that we never got to meet Howland Reed, but once Jon’s parentage was out in the open there wasn’t much need to involve him. 

Plus his keep drifts through the marshes and is pretty much impossible to find. 

Eureeka! That's how they will explain the Kings Landing scenery changes from S1 to this season. KL is actually merged with the Reeds home from the books. 

BTW I am referencing the huge landscape changes that allowed the last scene to be shot last week out in the dry land area outside the KL walls. In S1 it was all hills around it as it is in the books.

[Kajjo]

9 hours ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

Sansa doesn't hate Dany.  Sansa doesn't trust Dany.  The goals of both conflict.  Sansa does lack for tact.  Dany lacks for the ability to compromise, it seems.

Good summary! I agree.

9 hours ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

Also, if you recall, Tyrion, Davos, and Dany all told Jon that they wished that he had sworn an oath to Cersei, knowing that he would break it. 

I see a significant difference in a tactical lie to you enemy and a breaking a sacred oath to your trusted brother. All these comparisons to other broke n oaths are far-fetched. 

8 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

If northern independence was ever on the negotiation table, it would've been before Jon bent the knee.

Jon did a mistake. Sansa doesn't follow him. You can always negotiate everything. They fight side by side, so they can try to make new deals.

[Nightwish]

By telling Tyrion and Varys the secret, and since the show runners revealed that as student of little finger she can see the chain of events, doesn’t she actually wants Dany dead? 

 

[MinscS2]

Ultimately Sansa knows (or at least suspects, we don't really know how the conversation ended, thanks yet again #GoTcutaway) that Jon loves Daenerys, and she moves against her anyway, even after Jon tells her (stupidly, but still) to not tell anyone and after Daenerys has helped them win "the great war".

Sansa is clearly playing her own game. She might care about Jon's safety (but by revealing the secret to Tyrion and hence Varys, she endangers it more than by not revealing it) but she ultimately does not care about Jon's happiness. I hope it comes back and bites her in the ass.


 

[MinscS2]

1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

Jon did a mistake. Sansa doesn't follow him. You can always negotiate everything. They fight side by side, so they can try to make new deals.

That's not how deals work.
A deal was already struck. You don't wait for one side to uphold their end of the bargain, and then when it's your own turn to uphold yours, you try and renegotiate the deal in a way that's only favorable to yourself. 
That's extortion, not negotiation. 

[Cas Stark]

7 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Ultimately Sansa knows (or at least suspects, we don't really know how the conversation ended, thanks yet again #GoTcutaway) that Jon loves Daenerys, and she moves against her anyway, even after Jon tells her (stupidly, but still) to not tell anyone and after Daenerys has helped them win "the great war".

Sansa is clearly playing her own game. She might care about Jon's safety (but by revealing the secret to Tyrion and hence Varys, she endangers it more than by not revealing it) but she ultimately does not care about Jon's happiness. I hope it comes back and bites her in the ass.


 

You know it won't though.  The show already told you that Sansa is smarter than Tywin Lannister.  You are supposed to see all of Sansa's rudeness as her being a leader, her deceptions are her being like LF.  You are supposed to see how worthy she is of ruling the North.  So the fact that she behaved in a stupid and childish manner, as well as putting her cousin in danger, you aren't supposed to read it that way.

I can see why Sansa  has become dedicated to Northern independence, after all, her brother Robb could have given up after Ned died and bent the knee, he didn't and he died for it.  Her abuses have all also stemmed from Southrons and their various machinations, her wishing to be independent from that BS is totally understandable, and her feeling that Northern independence would give Robb's death and legacy meaning.   Of course the show doesn't show or tell any of this for her motivation, LOL.

[Mystical]

10 hours ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Jon never promised Dany anything. She asked him to withhold the information, and he told her pretty much flat out he wouldn’t agree to her terms. She never ordered him to keep his mouth shut, but probably should have. 

Sansa did swear to keep the secret Jon was entrusting her with, and in front of a heart tree no less. She spoke the actual words - I swear it.

Jon swore obedience to Dany. Something he reinforced when they were at the 'war table'. So when his Queen gives an order, he is to follow it. Jon swore an oath of obedience when he knelt and he continues to kneel. Can't have it both ways, either he swore an oath to do as Dany commands or he didn't. In which case Dany telling him not to reveal his parentage is a command that he is oath bound to keep.

So Jon disobeyed his Queen. But not really since he asked Bran to spill the beans. Just like Sansa swore to Jon not to reveal what HE told her. But he didn't tell her anything, Bran did. Jon revealed nothing to Sansa that she swore to keep secret. So just like Jon, Sansa gets out of it through a technicality. But I love how people keep ignoring this.

And what does a heart tree matter? They aren't a thing in the show besides going vision questing.

[starklover]

dany telling jon he cant tell wasnt a good move

[Daemos]

2 hours ago, starklover said:

dany telling jon he cant tell wasnt a good move

Those who don't say what they want don't get what they want.

Everything she told Jon in that room was accurate and will unfold as she predicted. Once a secret this big comes out, it changes people and they will use this information for their own ends. They will never let her and Jon be. 

[MinscS2]

2 hours ago, starklover said:

dany telling jon he cant tell wasnt a good move

It was actually a good move, her mistake was to beg him to keep it a secret, instead of forcing him to keep it a secret. I can't blame her though, she loves him so forcing him to keep it a secret ("I am your queen, I demand that you, blah blah") would be out of character.

Ultimately Daenerys was right, and everything she told him would happen started to happen this very episode:
- It doesn't matter what Jon wants, people will try to make him a king anyway because they like him.
- People will start to scheme behind Daenerys back. 
- Sansa will want Daenerys gone and Jon on the throne.

She made three predictions, and was proven right on all three accounts. 

[starklover]

13 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Everyone gets a lot of hate.

While Daenerys hasn't really shown much willingness to compromise the last season, let's not pretend that Sansa wasn't openly antagonistic towards her before they even brought up the notion of northern independence. 

You're generalizing. 

Sansa has done very few things I'd consider evil. Turning on Daenerys after she just fought to save the north is probably the only remotely evil thing she has done. She might have her reasons for doing it (she talks about "distrust"), but ultimately what she is doing would in a RPG-setting be considered an evil act. You don't turn on an ally who just tried to save you, regardless of your personal opinion of said ally.

Daenerys on her part, has done plenty of ruthless, possibly even cruel deeds, which sometimes border on being evil from an objective standpoint, but they are never done for the sake of being evil, even if it comes across that way. 

Ultimately, neither of these characters are inherently evil, but circumstances pushes them to do stuff that can easily be perceived that way. In the real world, both of them would have PTSD and require weekly visits to a shrink. 

what sansa did wasnt  evil maybe dumb but not evil. sansa was likely mad because he didnt talk to her first before bending the knee. i dont think dany is  evil at all but if she wants to be a good leader he needs to compromise and try to get know the people. being jealous of jon isnt helping. a marriage between would have worked better. 

[starklover]

13 hours ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

Me neither.  Sansa is in no way evil.

My guess is that Dany did accomplish more than Sansa and has helped more people (Grey Worm, Missandei, etc).

Perhaps folks who like Dany don't like the fact that Sansa does not.

dany could help more people because she had more power to do that. sansa has never had power until now. 

[Cas Stark]

Sansa, as a protege of Littlefinger, should never show her cards like that.  LF succeeded by always being under estimated, no one knew, or cared that much, where his real loyalty was, but he always appeared to be loyal to whomever was in power and made himself useful even while plotting their deaths.  As such, even if Sansa hated Dany on sight, she should have been diplomatic and polite to her, smirking, eye rolling and making rude comments is insane. This is what a juvenile dumbass does, not a 'player' and not someone who is trying to test out their new ally.  Dany should never perceive that Sansa 'doesn't like her' even if it true.

This show is wretched. Even when it tries to prop up a character it fails utterly in the execution.

[Kajjo]

13 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Like I said, in the real world both Daenerys and Sansa would have severe PTSD and probably require weekly visits to the psychologist.

Millions of people in medieval ages survived stress without psychologists. This is a very modern, very American way of thinking. Even millions of victims  of 20th century wars had to cope with it on their own. "Real world" is a wide stretch for stress traumata. 

13 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

"Sansa has suffered more than Daenerys", which came across as hasty.

Sansa surely did, a lot more. Daenerys had a bad start with her forced marriage to Khal Drogo, but she recovered and fell even in love with him.

Sansa was abused horribly by Ramsay, from rape to cuts and flaying.

[MinscS2]

45 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Millions of people in medieval ages survived stress without psychologists. This is a very modern, very American way of thinking. Even millions of victims  of 20th century wars had to cope with it on their own. "Real world" is a wide stretch for stress traumata. 

Sansa surely did, a lot more. Daenerys had a bad start with her forced marriage to Khal Drogo, but she recovered and fell even in love with him.

Sansa was abused horribly by Ramsay, from rape to cuts and flaying.

Not sure if you're willfully ignoring the 17 years of torment and abuse Daenerys had before her PoV began in S1, but I'm not really gonna continue the whole "who suffered the most"-discussion because it was gloom and pointless from the offset and I regret posting it.
(Although I gotta ask, are you seriously downplaying what these two women has endured as "stress?" Jesus...)

And I'm not american by the way, so I would know nothing of their way of thinking. 

[starklover]

8 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Millions of people in medieval ages survived stress without psychologists. This is a very modern, very American way of thinking. Even millions of victims  of 20th century wars had to cope with it on their own. "Real world" is a wide stretch for stress traumata. 

Sansa surely did, a lot more. Daenerys had a bad start with her forced marriage to Khal Drogo, but she recovered and fell even in love with him.

Sansa was abused horribly by Ramsay, from rape to cuts and flaying.

thats what i meant but people got very upset about it. i am sorry that i brought it up.

[Gendelsdottir]

Two may keep a secret if one of them is dead. One did keep a secret because that one was Ned.

On first viewing the Jon/Dany scene, I thought Jon was the one pulling back from the embrace. Watched it again. No, it was Dany who pushed him away. She gave him an ultimatum: keep your mouth shut, and everything goes on as before. Scant hope of that, and she knows it, and despairs.

Jon conceding his birthright? Maybe. Living under the "bastard" taint the rest of his natural life? He's too bloody righteous for that.

Bran and Sam know. Unless they are immediately put to death, more will find out in very short order (offscreen, naturally enough). And they'll tell two people, and they'll tell two people, and so on, and so on.... Maybe Sansa had her fingers crossed in front of the weirwood tree, and "Anyway it was Bran who told me, not Jon," but what difference does it make? Word is out.

And the anvils, they keep a-droppin' - Sansa = conniving bitch; Daenerys = pushed to the brink.