Why didn't Lyanna write to Eddard?

[The hairy bear]

1 hour ago, Aedam Targaryen said:

These statements seem like you are also looking at this with a bit of a modern mindset. ‘Even by our standards’ implies that our standards of rape today are more lax than they are in Westeros, which is not the case. Also, while a 14yr old girl marrying an older man is reprehensible today, it happened a lot in Westeros. The Starks would be very upset by this, but I would argue that a father of a 14yr old girl in our time (in which NO 14yr old girls should get married) should be much more upset. 

You misunderstood me here. What I meant is that, even in our current modern society where no one needs permission from the head of his or her house to have sex with whoever they wish and women are given absolute freedom to decide about it, we still a 14 year old girl is able to give consent. And therfore, 22 year old man having sex with a 14 year old girl ill be rape regardless of the girls wishes.

 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

If Rhaegar was willing to take the fall, the whole "abduction" could have been agreed on with Rickard so that the Starks wouldn't lose face breaking their word... - Most likely, it wasn't, but since we know so little, such a scenario cannot be ruled out just yet.

I don't know how Rhaegar could have "taken the fall". He was already married, so he couldn't marry Lyanna. And the insult to the honor of House Stark was already done. As Loge said, no significant lord would be willing to marry Lyanna now.  I'm struggling to imagine how the issue could have been "amended".

But anyway, the point is mood. Rhaegar believed he was the fulfilling a prophecy to save mankind. He wasn't willing to take any fall.

4 minutes ago, teej6 said:

if Ned knew that Rhaegar loved his sister, there was no reason for him to fight the KG at the ToJ. Even if the KG wanted to install Jon as the rightful King, and Ned’s allegiance was to Robert, there’s no reason for them to fight a duel to the death. The KG should not have had any concerns regarding Ned’s intent towards his sister and her infant.

The KG were fully aware that Ned wasn't going to hurt her sister's baby. But they couldn't allow Ned to get the infant because they were aware that he would do exactly what he ended doing.

To the KG, the boy was the legitimate Targaryen king and they were sworn to defend his rights to the Iron Throne. Raising him as a bastard in a remote land unaware of his heritage is something that they could not allow to happen.

[teej6]

4 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

The KG were fully aware that Ned wasn't going to hurt her sister's baby. But they couldn't allow Ned to get the infant because they were aware that he would do exactly what he ended doing.

To the KG, the boy was the legitimate Targaryen king and they were sworn to defend his rights to the Iron Throne. Raising him as a bastard in a remote land unaware of his heritage is something that they could not allow to happen.

Perhaps you are right. But the again, if it was Jon’s claim to the IT that they were fighting over, I’m not so certain they needed to fight to the death or if the KG would be completely convinced of Ned’s intent to take Jon’s rights from him. We know that that’s what happened but why would the KG or Lyanna for that matter be convinced of this? Robert had just recently been installed as King and Ned was not really fighting to put Robert on the throne, but was fighting because his life and the future of his family depended on defeating Aerys. Why would the KG be so sure that Ned would not support his sister’s son’s claim to throne over Robert’s? 

If we assume that the KG may have thought Ned was complicit in Elia’a and her children’s murder, then they would have reason to worry that Ned was a threat that had to be removed at all cost. But that’s why I stated earlier, wouldn’t Lyanna have tried to rectify this misconception knowing her brother? Now, if the KG thought that Ned was acting on the misconception that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped his sister, then perhaps there is some reason for the KG to see him as a threat to them and Rhaegar’s son, and perhaps they didn’t think they could convince Ned otherwise when he arrived with his men at the ToJ. I’m not sure what I believe since we have so little information as to the events that transpired.

[nyser1]

Smells of Stockholm Syndrome, her being actually kidnapped, her not being as close with her family as we thought, or us missing key information.

[teej6]

25 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't know how Rhaegar could have "taken the fall". He was already married, so he couldn't marry Lyanna. And the insult to the honor of House Stark was already done. As Loge said, no significant lord would be willing to marry Lyanna now.  I'm struggling to imagine how the issue could have been "amended".

But anyway, the point is mood. Rhaegar believed he was the fulfilling a prophecy to save mankind. He wasn't willing to take any fall.

If we assume that Rhaegar had taken Lyanna to be his second wife (he could claim polygamy was acceptable to the Targs), then the insult to the Stark’s could be sorted out. Rickard could be appeased in that his daughter was married to the crown prince and there was no dishonor to his house. In your response to me you stated that the KG’s suspected Ned would take away Jon’s claim to the IT as the KG thought Jon was the legitimate Targ King. Jon does not have a claim if he is a bastard. The only way Jon would have a claim is if Rhaegar had married Lyanna. So which is it? You can’t have it both ways.

Rhaegar fulfilling prophecy in taking Lyanna is just speculation at this point, it’s not fact. It could very well just be Rhaegar falling in love with Lyanna and  it may have nothing to do with prophesy.

[Ygrain]

50 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Yes, this is the way I see it as well. Rhaegar purposefully allowed the story to spread that he abducted Lyanna in order to protect her and the Stark’s honor. However, he miscalculated Brandon’s and his father’s reaction and the chain of events that ensued. I don’t think Brandon knew that Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped when he went to KL.

I think he might, and that's why he cared more about killing Rhaegar rather than reclaiming Lyanna. 

Gosh, I wish TWOW were already coming...

50 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Rickard and Ned may have known that Lyanna went willing after the fact but by then Aerys had already set things in motion by arresting the heir to WF. He probably arrested and eventually killed Brandon and Rickard to tie Rhaegar’s hands and destroy any hopes of an alliance that Rhaegar may have had with the North (that is if one believes that Rhaegar was conspiring to overthrow his father). It was a masterstroke on Aerys part and perhaps the idea came from someone else, say Varys.

I like your way of thinking! If Varys was indeed working to bring down the Targaryens and reinstate Blackfyres, Lyanna's abduction, or "abduction", was an opportunity served on a platinum platter, all he needed was to fan the fire a wee bit.

50 minutes ago, teej6 said:

But then again if Ned knew that Rhaegar loved his sister, there was no reason for him to fight the KG at the ToJ. Even if the KG wanted to install Jon as the rightful King, and Ned’s allegiance was to Robert, there’s no reason for them to fight a duel to the death. The KG should not have had any concerns regarding Ned’s intent towards his sister and her infant. One could argue they heard about the deaths of Elia and her kids and suspected the same fate to befall Lyanna and her child. But wouldn’t Ned’s reputation be known even then, and if not, couldn’t Lyanna have vouched for Ned to Arthur Dayne when they heard of the deaths of Elia and her kids? Whatever Martin comes up with, he needs to tie up all the lose ends and unanswered questions. It can’t just be a whole lot of misunderstandings between otherwise noble and honorable characters.

Are you sure? A bloody and terrible civil war had just ended. The KG pushing Jon's claim would mean another civil war in the future. Would Ned allow that? Would he allow them to take Jon elsewhere to bring him up as a threat to the kingdom, and make Ned choose between his friend and king and his own blood? I think it was a no-brainer that Ned would never harm Jon; Ned lying to keep Jon secret was much less sure, and Ned allowing for a new war was an absolute NO. Hence, the fight.- Just my five cents.

26 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

You misunderstood me here. What I meant is that, even in our current modern society where no one needs permission from the head of his or her house to have sex with whoever they wish and women are given absolute freedom to decide about it, we still a 14 year old girl is able to give consent. And therfore, 22 year old man having sex with a 14 year old girl ill be rape regardless of the girls wishes.

Not necessarily. In many countries, 14 is an age of consent (and I'm talking countries like Germany) even at present.

26 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't know how Rhaegar could have "taken the fall". He was already married, so he couldn't marry Lyanna. And the insult to the honor of House Stark was already done. As Loge said, no significant lord would be willing to marry Lyanna now.  I'm struggling to imagine how the issue could have been "amended".

He was Targaryen. He could have cited the family precedent for polygamy, and since a second wife is better than a dishonoured daughter, it would be in the Starks' interest not to protest too much.

26 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

But anyway, the point is mood. Rhaegar believed he was the fulfilling a prophecy to save mankind. He wasn't willing to take any fall.

And how do you know? 

Actually, we don't even know if he made away with Lyanna for the prophecy or something else (though, GRRM said "lovestruck prince", so prophecy apparently wasn3○t the only driving forcebehind his actions)

26 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

To the KG, the boy was the legitimate Targaryen king and they were sworn to defend his rights to the Iron Throne. Raising him as a bastard in a remote land unaware of his heritage is something that they could not allow to happen.

Wait a sec: how could Jon be a legit king when you claim above that Rhaegar couldn't marry? If you do not acknowledge the polygamy option, then Viserys was the only legit king at that point.

[teej6]

9 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Are you sure? A bloody and terrible civil war had just ended. The KG pushing Jon's claim would mean another civil war in the future. Would Ned allow that? Would he allow them to take Jon elsewhere to bring him up as a threat to the kingdom, and make Ned choose between his friend and king and his own blood? I think it was a no-brainer that Ned would never harm Jon; Ned lying to keep Jon secret was much less sure, and Ned allowing for a new war was an absolute NO. Hence, the fight.- Just my five cents.

Yeah, you are probably right. The KG may have suspected (and rightly so) that if Ned got his hands on Jon, that would be the end of any claim Jon had to the IT. And yes, we need the next book like now. I only hope Martin is able to provide a satisfactory explanation to these past events and tie all the lose ends. I’d hate it, if he just left some of the story to reader’s imagination. 

[The hairy bear]

@teej6 @Ygrain

I think Rhaegar and his close supporters considered polygamy acceptable. There were the precedents in the family, and although they were from more than two centuries ago, they fact that they believed in a prophecy foretelling that the infant born from the union would be "the Prince that was Promised" added weight to the legitimacy of the union. For all this, I would assume that the KG at the Tower of Joy considered that Lyanna's son was the heir to the Iron Throne.

But that does not mean that the rest of Westeros had to agree. Since Rhaenys died early after the Conquest, Maegor the Cruel's are the only polygamous marriages Westeros has had to deal with. And we have seen how they went: Maegor had to coerce and blackmail the brides, most of the Faith opposed the union, and it was one of the transgressions that led to his downfall.

Among the First Men, polygamous marriages are an abomination. If the Targaryens want to do it, they may accept it. But for Lord Stark, allowing his daughter to do so would be at an entirely other level. Many in the realm would see Lyanna no more than a concubine,or a glorified whore. And since Rhaegar already have a son from Elia, she  wouldn't even be expected to be the mother of the new king. Furthermore, the legitimacy of her offspring would be put into question by the pious lords who wouldn't accept polygamy anyway.

ETA:

31 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

And how do you know? 

Actually, we don't even know if he made away with Lyanna for the prophecy or something else (though, GRRM said "lovestruck prince", so prophecy apparently wasn3○t the only driving forcebehind his actions)

The realm was falling apart, his father was murdering his in-laws, his friend Jon Connington was being exiled,... and all the while he stayed in the Red Mountains enjoying his honeymoon until he made sure that Lyanna was pregnant.

It doesn't seem that Rhaegar was willing to sacrifice whatever he was doing in the Tower of Joy for the political stability of the realm.

[teej6]

11 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

@teej6 @Ygrain

I think Rhaegar and his close supporters considered polygamy acceptable. There were the precedents in the family, and although they were from more than two centuries ago, they fact that they believed in a prophecy foretelling that the infant born from the union would be "the Prince that was Promised" added weight to the legitimacy of the union. For all this, I would assume that the KG at the Tower of Joy considered that Lyanna's son was the heir to the Iron Throne.

But that does not mean that the rest of Westeros had to agree. Since Rhaenys died early after the Conquest, Maegor the Cruel's are the only polygamous marriages Westeros has had to deal with. And we have seen how they went: Maegor had to coerce and blackmail the brides, most of the Faith opposed the union, and it was one of the transgressions that led to his downfall.

Among the First Men, polygamous marriages are an abomination. If the Targaryens want to do it, they may accept it. But for Lord Stark, allowing his daughter to do so would be at an entirely other level. Many in the realm would see Lyanna no more than a concubine,or a glorified whore. And since Rhaegar already have a son from Elia, she  wouldn't even be expected to be the mother of the new king. Furthermore, the legitimacy of her offspring would be put into question by the pious lords who wouldn't accept polygamy anyway.

If it was just Whent and Dayne, I would have somewhat agreed with you. But we have Hightower present as well. We don’t have any evidence that Hightower was particularly close to Rhaegar. What could have convinced him that Rhaegar’s marriage to Lyanna was valid such that their offspring would be the legitimate heir to the IT? And I find it hard to see someone like Hightower basing it on some prophesy Rhaegar was espousing. All his beliefs and traditions just discarded for the sake of some prophesy. I don’t think so. Also, I suspect Rhaegar wouldn’t have named it the Tower of Joy if he was just fulfilling a prophesy.

[A Ghost of Someone]

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

It would have changed nothing because the Rebellion wasn't over Lyanna. It was started by Jon Arryn when he disobeyed Aerys' order to hand over Ned and Robert for execution. Getting Lyanna back was a secondary goal, the primary one was to keep their heads.

 

I don't see how a letter to Ned would make the hidden prince impossible if Ned simply decided that it would be wise not to spread the info. Which he would, because at that point, there was no going back.

 

Er... and how do you know that Rickard didn't know? We have next to no information on Rickard's actions, but it was Brandon, not Rickard, who went to KL - and instead of demanding Lyanna back, he wanted to duel Rhaegar. 

 

Brandon, his squire and many heirs of the North and the Heir of the Vale went with Brandon to KL. They were imprisoned. Richard was summoned to answer for Brandon, he went and was told that he would fight in a trial by combat. They were all executed, save Brandon's squire who would die later at the Tower of Joy. Brandon and crew knew that Rheagar took Lyanna, yes, Richard likely knew shortly after yes but approve or prior consulted or consented to it, no, obviously not.

[Gerg Sknab]

3 hours ago, Loge said:

At this point Lyanna is damaged goods. Getting her back accomplishes nothing. She is no longer fit for a marriage into a family of rank. The only way Rhaegar can make amendments is marry her. Which he probably did, though it was bigamy. That would still leave the issue of the broken promise to Robert. 

Hey, Robert's already broken any promise Mya Stone is alive and kicking.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Richard likely knew shortly after yes but approve or prior consulted or consented to it, no, obviously not.

Based on what? We have so little information to work on, there is nothing on Rickard's reaction to his daughter's disappearance.

Let us presume that Rickard indeed had great ambitions for House Stark. What higher ambition can there be than the throne? If Lyanna becomes Rhaegar's second wife, then her daughter could marry Aegon and become the queen, Rickard's great grandson then could sit the throne. Wouldn't this be worth some risk?

- Mind you: not saying there is textual support for this, just that it cannot be ruled out just yet because GRRM has kept such a tight lid over the preamble to the rebellion.

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

@teej6 @Ygrain

I think Rhaegar and his close supporters considered polygamy acceptable. There were the precedents in the family, and although they were from more than two centuries ago, they fact that they believed in a prophecy foretelling that the infant born from the union would be "the Prince that was Promised" added weight to the legitimacy of the union. For all this, I would assume that the KG at the Tower of Joy considered that Lyanna's son was the heir to the Iron Throne.

Agreed.

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

But that does not mean that the rest of Westeros had to agree. Since Rhaenys died early after the Conquest, Maegor the Cruel's are the only polygamous marriages Westeros has had to deal with. And we have seen how they went: Maegor had to coerce and blackmail the brides, most of the Faith opposed the union, and it was one of the transgressions that led to his downfall.

Hm... let's take a look. Per GRRM, the precedent is still valid. Rhaegar's personality was very different from Maegor's, so he might have been able to talk both Elia and Lyanna into it - in fact, if Elia was on board with the prophecy, she might have considered it her duty to enable his second marriage. The Faith was subdued and did as was told. Rhaegar was hugely popular, with not a single chip to his reputation. All in all: if anyone might have been able to get away with polygamy, Rhaegar seems to be just the guy.

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Among the First Men, polygamous marriages are an abomination.

Where is this stated? The wildling worship the same gods but a taboo against polygamy seems to be nonexistent.

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Many in the realm would see Lyanna no more than a concubine,or a glorified whore.

That they certainly would. But would they rise in rebellion because of it?

Plus, there would be the pragmatic Lords who would consider this an opportunity to get their daughters into similar arrangements.

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

And since Rhaegar already have a son from Elia, she  wouldn't even be expected to be the mother of the new king.

You're forgetting about that other Targ specialty - incest. Lyanna's children can marry Elia's, and Lyanna's grandson thus could sit the throne.

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Furthermore, the legitimacy of her offspring would be put into question by the pious lords who wouldn't accept polygamy anyway.

Couldn't that be amended by a royal decree? Like, when legitimizing bastards?

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

ETA:

The realm was falling apart, his father was murdering his in-laws, his friend Jon Connington was being exiled,... and all the while he stayed in the Red Mountains enjoying his honeymoon until he made sure that Lyanna was pregnant.

It doesn't seem that Rhaegar was willing to sacrifice whatever he was doing in the Tower of Joy for the political stability of the realm.

Okay, let's presume that Rhaegar returns to KL ASAP. How exactly will he prevent Aerys from doing what he wanted to do? What power does Rhaegar have over Aerys? 

Rhaegar returned to KL only when Aerys needed him - that ensured Rhaegar a certain degree of power (and that he wouldn't be imprisoned). Unless he possessed the means to stage a coup, which he most likely didn't, his early return probably wouldn't have changed a thing as long as Aerys was in charge.

[SFDanny]

3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

You misunderstood me here. What I meant is that, even in our current modern society where no one needs permission from the head of his or her house to have sex with whoever they wish and women are given absolute freedom to decide about it, we still a 14 year old girl is able to give consent. And therfore, 22 year old man having sex with a 14 year old girl ill be rape regardless of the girls wishes.

May I just point out a few things here? First, we don't know exactly how old Lyanna is when the kidnapping takes place. We know she is sixteen - the age of adulthood in Westeros - when she dies. She dies in, most probably, the ninth or tenth month of 283 AC. It is quite possible she had turned sixteen some time earlier in 283 and that she was fourteen or fifteen in 282 when she disappears with Rhaegar. It is also possible that she was to turn seventeen later in 283, but she dies before she reaches that age. If so, it would mean she turned sixteen in late 282, but with the proviso that her name day is before the date of her death in the calendar year. All of which means almost nothing other than need for more information about Lyanna's name day. Could she have been sixteen when a marriage occurs between Lyanna and Rhaegar? Yes, but without knowing Lyanna's name day or when such a marriage would have occurred, we cannot say that it is so.

The important part is the ability to give consent. This is "iffy" in Martin's Westeros. Martin makes  it clear that a person can always say no -  even if they are underage - but he also speaks of grave consequences if one does so against the wishes of his or her father. More interesting is the ability to say "yes." We have plenty of instances when under age women are married with the consent of their lord or king. We have almost no examples of marriages in which people are married against the will of their father, lord, or king. Jaehaerys II's marriage to his sister, both underage at the time, and Duncan's marriage to Jenny of Oldstone, both ages at marriage unknown, are examples of this, but I don't think anyone would mistake Egg for the Mad King Aerys. The point being both Rhaegar and Lyanna would be fighting against powerful forces if they tried to marry. That is perhaps just a clear example of stating the obvious, but the only way I can see such a marriage would be accepted is if Rhaegar becomes king and demands it is. But, of course, this looks to be his likely plan. Not one with a good probability of success, but a desperate one in need of a lot of luck.

Lastly, I would point out that it isn't clear at all that it would be considered rape for a 22 year old to have sex with a woman under the age of consent.  It certainly would be considered disgusting for a man to have sex with a underage woman who hasn't yet "flowered" but it is unknown if would be considered rape in all cases, especially within the bonds of marriage. Sansa is only twelve when she is forced into marriage with Tyrion, and it is not at all considered taboo for Tyrion, older at this point than Rhaegar was before his death, to have sex with her. In fact, Tywin considers it Tyrion's duty to do so whatever Sansa's opinion on the matter. 

I'm not sure if that helps in this discussion, but I think what we think is clear, is not always so clear.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Something occurred to me. If Lyanna didn't write and I don’t think she did, there's a very easy answer for why she didn't and that's Jon Arryn and Elbert Arryn.

When Brandon and his group was arrested, Aerys summoned the fathers to the city to ransom their sons. So the hope is there for Lyanna and everyone that the situation is going to be solved without bloodshed. But Aerys has everyone executed instead.

But it doesn't seem like Jon Arryn answered the summons. Lyanna is like the reader. She is removed from what's happening in King’s Landing. She knows her father died along with Brandon and that Elbert Arryn died as well. The other thing she might know is that Jon Arryn is in the Vale. So it's possible that she thought that Jon Arryn did nothing to try and save his nephew and heir.

So when Aerys calls for Ned and Robert's heads, she has no way of knowing that a man who has allegedly done nothing for his own blood will lift a finger to save his wards. I think the everyone's expectation may have been that Jon Arryn would obey the command.

I should disclaim that I'm basing the speculation on the idea that Aerys found out that Lyanna was the KotLT and that he sent men to capture her and that Rhaegar was only trying to protect her. If she is perceived as a traitor, writing Ned would have made things worse for him. And she can't really go back to Winterfell because she would endanger Benjen.

I don't buy into the whole idea that she and Rhaegar ran away together and got married right away. I wouldn't be surprised if she was on Dragonstone for a time and left after her father was executed and Ned's head was called for,.

[A Ghost of Someone]

6 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Based on what? We have so little information to work on, there is nothing on Rickard's reaction to his daughter's disappearance.

 

IF Brandon knew and so many prominent lordlings/heirs were with Bradon then it is common sense that his father, Lord Richard also knew that is daughter was off with Rheagar somewhere unknown. With or without her consent. At this point, his oldest son and heir was being held in KL with his life in the balance so that demanded his imed attention.

[DanaKz]

How would it help? "hey ned and bobby, stop freting,  i am totally not abducted, just answering a booty call from married prince like a common ho, will be back when we are done xoxo your gurl lya. ps - sorry about dad and bran"? - yeah, that would soothe everybody for sure. 

[Son of Man]

On 5/17/2019 at 12:35 PM, Belizarie said:

Or to her father. Or to Robert. She had plenty of time to tell them the truth about her "abduction" in order to stop the upcoming rebellion, which ultimately claimed her lover's life. Why all the silence?

1. We don't know what she was doing at the Tower of Joy.  Maybe she was a prisoner.  
2. What if the rumors are true and she was kidnapped.
3. She has the wolf's blood temperament.  Reckless instead of thoughtful.  She puts what she wants ahead of what the others need.  
4. She didn't care about the casualties of war.  Nobles talk like they do.  Their actions say otherwise.  Ex. Caitlyn, Tywin, Jon Arryn, Robb.