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Just how many people knew about the incest?

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3 hours ago, R2D said:

Actually wasn't that Varys' whole motive...Viserys was to wed Arianne Martell, and ally with Dorne, while using Khal Drogo's army to invade Westeros.

It was Martells' plan to marry Viserys with Arianne, not Varys' plan. In my opinion, Willem Darry didn't died because of illness, he was killed by Varys, because that marriage, that Willem tried to arrange with Martells, wasn't in Varys' plans for Targaryen kids. He had his own plan, concerning the two of them - getting Dany married with a powerfull ally, who will give military support to fAegon and his Golden Company (years later khal Drogo was chosen as that ally); to kill Viserys (in some roundabout manner, how it was eventualy done in AGOT); to marry fAegon with Arianne, and thru their marriage to gain support of Dorne for Golden Company.

Viserys' death was orchestrated by Varys. He had sent Jorah with Targaryens, to make him get rid of Viserys. It was Jorah, who had introduced Viserys to merchants, that were constantly giving him free wine. Why were they doing that? They were traders, and traders make money by selling their goods, not by giving them away for free. So, in my opinion, behind Viserys' back, they were actually getting paid by Jorah, to keep Viserys constantly drunk, while they were at Vaes Dothrak. And thus, it was only a matter of time, when someone as uncontrollable, vicious and stupid as Viserys, would have brought his own death, at such a dangerous place, as Vaes Dothrak, where carrying a weapon was prohibited.

There are hints in the books, that Doreah was also working for Varys/Illyrio, and that she was the one, who gave the sword to Viserys, on the day of his death. There's no way, that he himself could have brought that sword into Vaes Dothrak, past the guards, that were disarming everyone in front of the gates into the city. And there's no way, that Viserys himself went into the storage, where weapons were kept, and just took his sword.

On the day of Viserys' death, Dany prepared for him his best clothes, for him to wear them at the feast. So I think, that Jorah had secretly went into the storage, retrieved from there Viserys' sword, gave it to Doreah, and she just placed it together with a scabbard near Viserys' clothes, that he was supposed to wear for the feast. He was drunk, and he forgot/or didn't cared about the no weapons rule, and just automatically put on that belt with scabbard and sword. And it was Doreah, who later had informed Illyrio, that Jorah can't be trusted anymore, because he had fallen in love with Dany. So Illyrio had set him up, with those letters and a winetrader, to be able to later get rid of Jorah, when they will want to move him away from Dany.

Based on what was said in ADWD, by people from Golden Company, at certain time in the past, they (Illyrio/Varys) were planning for fAegon to marry with Arianne Martell. That's why, when Willem Darry tried to arrange a marriage alliance with Dorne, he had to be killed, to prevent him from taking away Arianne. Their plan for Viserys was to make him die, otherwise he would have always been a threat for fAegon (whose identity was questionable, unlike Viserys', who was a real Targaryen). Dany for them was just a bargaining chip, not one of the players. Then, after Dany got her dragons, the plan with marriage to Arianne was abandoned, because Dany with her new armies was a better option. Now they plan to marry Arianne to Jon Connington, and they had abandoned their plan to marry fAegon to Dany (because by the time, that she will arrive to Westeros, 7K will be already under fAegon's control, he will already seize Iron Throne and will become the King of 7K, so he won't need her support anymore). Thus, now they are considering different options, of with whom should fAegon get married, with someone who will provide him with military support here and now. It seems to me, that Varys and Illyrio now want to marry fAegon with Margaery Tyrell, because Redwynes are secret allies of Blackfyres (and Varys and fAegon are Blackfyres). Though Littlefinger is going to offer to fAegon a different option - marriage with Sansa Stark, because Sansa is a key to three kingdoms (The North, The Vale and Riverlands), she is the last Stark, sister of Robb Stark, who was the King in the North and King of the Trident, currently she's under protection of Littlefinger, who is officially Lord Paramount of the Trident, and Lord Protector of the Eyrie and the Vale of Arryn, and legal guardian of Robert Arryn, who is Sansa's first cousin and the current Warden of the East. It was always part of Littlefinger's plan, to remove both Baratheons from Stormlands and Dragonstone, to make it easier for fAegon to seize them. LF knew about fAegon, because in my opinion, he used to be one of Varys' agents, prior he became independant and went to play his own Game of Thrones. He's going to partially assist fAegon to get to Iron Throne, he will also marry him with Sansa, and then, when Queen Sansa will have a baby with King fAegon, Littlefinger will make her to get rid of her husband, same as how he did it with Lysa and Jon Arryn. So LF's end game is to marry with dowager-Queen Sansa, and to become a regent of her child (that will actually be LF's child, not fAegon's, same as Robert Arryn, most likely, is LF's son and not Jon Arryn's).

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Posted (edited)

None of this proves Renly didn't know anything. Sure, maybe Cersei could be set aside, but it's not beneficial for the Tyrells to go along with it if her children are not removed from the line of succession. In-universe characters don't know Renly's reasons for wanting to replace Cersei. But we know he was working with Mace and Mace Tyrell always wanted his grandson to be king, not just his daughter as queen.

It's also strange that the Tyrells would plot regicide with a man they hardly know (Littlefinger), but if they and Renly had worked with him before it would make more sense.

Edited by Peach King

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1 hour ago, Peach King said:

Sure, maybe Cersei could be set aside, but it's not beneficial for the Tyrells to go along with it if her children are not removed from the line of succession.

Of course it's beneficial. The Tyrells will have gain places at court and influence over Robert through Margaery, Mace might become the next Hand, Paxter Redwyne might be moved in to replace Stannis as Master of Ships, the Lannisters will lose influence in turn by displacing Cersei, Margaery's sons and daughters would be princes and princesses sought after for marriage and who might produce offspring who in turn would be cousins of the future king, a grand-daughter who (as a cousin) might be a fine prospect for a king's  son to marry...

I mean, jeez. Women fought tooth and nail to become the favored mistresses of kings, often with the help and support of their families, all for power and influence while that lasted. This is no different.

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7 minutes ago, Ran said:

I mean, jeez. Women fought tooth and nail to become the favored mistresses of kings, often with the help and support of their families, all for power and influence while that lasted. This is no different.

Where, when?

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Just now, Lady Winter Rose said:

Where, when?

In Westeros, Lord Bracken used his daughters to gain influence at Aegon the Unworthy's court. When one was displaced by a Blackwood he and the spurned daughter groomed her younger sister to displace her in turn. This was obviously inspired by Mary and Anne Boleyn. 

The French kings had a lot of ambitious mistresses (and their families).

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7 minutes ago, Lady Winter Rose said:

Where, when?

France and England in the middle ages off the top of my head, but I'd say it was pretty common throughout Europe and feudal Japan, China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_French_royal_mistresses#Louis_X

Many French mistresses came from some of the most powerful French families and were hugely influential while they were the paramours of the King, in turn granting titles and powers to their family and allies.

Henry VIII to. While Anne was the more famous Boleyn, her sister was also briefly Henry's mistress and as a result her father was rewarded with rank. When Anne was Henry's mistress both her father and brother joined Henry's Privy Council.  The Howards, the most powerful family in England at the time, tried to have a daughter (former wife of the King's dead bastard son) try to seduce the aged king so they could gain even more influence.

Henry's opposite number in France, Francis I. reign was dominated by the influence of his paramours most famously Françoise de Foix.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Peach King said:

None of this proves Renly didn't know anything.

Renly himself claims not to know. Without a single other source in the books either claiming or suggesting that he did know then so far the canon answer is that he did not know.  Not even Stannis claimed that he did know and that is even after Stannis being told by Renly his plan to marry Margaery to Robert. Nor Varys, who uncovered Renly and the Tyrell's plot.

 

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

 

Sure, maybe Cersei could be set aside, but it's not beneficial for the Tyrells to go along with it if her children are not removed from the line of succession.

Yes it is. Why do you think Walder Frey is still getting nobles marriages? Walder will have had around 40 heirs by the time he married a member of House Blackwood.

Being a Queen comes with huge amount of influence. Having Royal grandchildren is hugely prestigious and also offers influence to the Tyrells.

The fact that the current rulers of Westeros are descendants of a daughter was was fourth in line should make it clear how valued having royal relatives is.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

 

In-universe characters don't know Renly's reasons for wanting to replace Cersei.

They seem to. It's not presented as a mystery.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

But we know he was working with Mace and Mace Tyrell always wanted his grandson to be king, not just his daughter as queen.

For starters you are referring to a quote from Olenna where she is specifically talking about Mace supporting Renly's rebellion to be King and then changing sides to Joffrey. Olenna did not want her son to rebel but the offer of his daughter as Queen and grandson as King was enough for him to rebel. The plan to try to tempt Robert with his daughter is not rebellion.

Secondly the majority of Lords want their grandsons to Kings. It is a highly ambitious society.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

It's also strange that the Tyrells would plot regicide with a man they hardly know (Littlefinger), but if they and Renly had worked with him before it would make more sense.

How do you know they barely know him? Littlefinger is the Master of Coin and the Tyrells have borrowed a substantial amount of money to the Crown. He's also the man who negotiated their alliance to the Crown at Bitterbridge.

If Renly and the Tyrells were working with Littlefinger before Robert's death why does Renly go to Ned? Why does he not go to Littlefinger instead and have Cersei arrested and himself declared Regent. Both Seymour brothers, uncles of Edward VI, did just that, tried to rule the realm through control of their nephew.

This series is loosely based on the War of the Roses, Richard III took charge of his royal nephews after his brother died and rid himself of the ambitious Woodvilles before the Princes in the Tower disappeared from history. Had Renly known surely that is what would have happened in the series rather than Renly fleeing and then later rebelling.

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On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 8:14 AM, R2D said:

Disagree, Drogo wasn't going to bother crossing the Narrow Sea until the assassination attempt.

We don't know that. His bride was 13, his sons not even born. Robert does not want Dany dead because he is thinking of an invasion in the near future but the fact with every heir she has it increases the chances of rebels.

The Blackfyres were rebels until the last male of the line was killed. This is another Blackfyre situation, it was going to lead to war whether it be 1 year, 5 years or 15 years down the line.

On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 8:14 AM, R2D said:

If Dany was assassinated, it just gives Khal Drogo more motive to invade.

Sure, but without Dany or an heir he's not worried about the support from Westeros for that invasion.

Though this argument does not seem right, he loves her that he is angry enough to invade if she was assassinated but not enough to ever listen to her desire to take back Westeros?

 

 

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@ Varys 

There were rumours going around court that Cersei killed Robert's bastards but he did nothing. He let Cersei kill Lady and he did nothing. And weren't you arguing Robert could set aside Cersei with no problem and he only didn't do so because he didn't want to enough yet during AGOT? Being in love with Margaery would give him the incentive.

And this isn't exactly a good plan. If Renly went around loudly whispering about Cersei's treason it'll just spur the Lannisters into action.

I mean, what would happen if Robert tells Cersei "Hey I heard from Renly that you and the Kingslayer were in the same room all night together. What's up with that?" Cersei would shift her priorities from killing Robert to killing Renly. Or what if he's like "Hey how come our kids have blonde hair and green eyes while all my bastards don't?" Cersei would kill Robert even sooner.

Robert trusted and depended on Ned, and we know Ned dislikes the Lannisters, Ned could have helped Renly to convince Robert to set Cersei aside.

Reasons why Renly should back Stannis: Because he cares about PR and being called a kinslayer and usurper isn't great for public image. It'll also prevent him or his sons from being overthrown using the same rationale he did. Or his sons from fighting each other. Basically Renly put himself in a position where he had to kill all of his family, Edric, Shireen, Stannis, everyone, otherwise there'd be constant 'you are not the true king' nonsense coming up. 

Good point.

Renly was not subtle about his Margaery plan at all, even Stannis knew.

Of course the Tyrells knew. Olenna makes that clear when she talks to Sansa.

And why is Loras foolish? Becaude he's impetuous? That's not the same as being foolish. His trick with the mare was very clever. And Mace was part of the plot too.

@Megarova 

I think Varys and Illyrio saw Daenerys as a disposable asset all along. Consider:

Quote

[...] If truth be told, I did not think Daenerys would survive for long amongst the horselords.”

ADWD 5: TYRION II

@Bernie 

That's what's written in the wiki, it's been some  time since I read the book.

And Drogo has Viserys to use as a spearhead for a possible movement to invade Westeros and reclaim the throne.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

How do you know they barely know him? Littlefinger is the Master of Coin and the Tyrells have borrowed a substantial amount of money to the Crown. He's also the man who negotiated their alliance to the Crown at Bitterbridge.

If Renly and the Tyrells were working with Littlefinger before Robert's death why does Renly go to Ned? Why does he not go to Littlefinger instead and have Cersei arrested and himself declared Regent. Both Seymour brothers, uncles of Edward VI, did just that, tried to rule the realm through control of their nephew.

This series is loosely based on the War of the Roses, Richard III took charge of his royal nephews after his brother died and rid himself of the ambitious Woodvilles before the Princes in the Tower disappeared from history. Had Renly known surely that is what would have happened in the series rather than Renly fleeing and then later rebelling.

The other stuff seems to have already been argued against in this thread so I'll just answer this one. 

Aha! Exactly. Littlefinger went to negotiate with Loras who is Renly's lover. Why is Littlefinger's closeness with Renly brought up again and again?

Quote

Lord Renly stood by the screen, talking quietly with a short man who could only be Littlefinger.

Talking about what, I wonder?

We see them joking around in court, we see them betting against each other for fun, Littlefinger says he knew Loras "passing well" (I.e very well) while he was at court.

And Littlefinger suggested putting Renly on the throne. He doesn't want Stannis on the throne because Stannis hates low lifes like him. And if Stannis knew of the incest, that makes it a very real danger he might be heir and then king one day. Wouldn't Littlefinger take steps to mitigate that, apart from killing Jon Arryn? Hm? Like perhaps dropping hints to Renly or flattering him and saying he would be a better king, and etc?

And sorry Bernie Mac, but working on a very dangerous king killing plotting plot is different from borrowing loans a few times. And it was Olenna who did it, supposedly the cautious one, the one who didn't want to support Renly. This could be a big hint she was in on the plan to wed Margaery to Robert, and worked with Littlefinger cause she's worked with him before.

Renly didn't factor in the goldcloaks at all. The goldcloaks were supposed to be under his control as Master of Laws but he didn't even utilize them. By all the laws they should do what he ordered but he didn't even think of that. He only thought about the personal guards.

Renly's mindset is "might is right" the Hand of the King would have the most power in his mind because of hierarchy.

And Ned would never betray him unlike Littlefinger.

Anyway, I might be very wrong but nothing is canon until the author says so. Al Qaeda will never prevail! Adios

Edited by Peach King

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1 hour ago, Peach King said:

The other stuff seems to have already been argued against in this thread so I'll just answer this one. 

Aha! Exactly. Littlefinger went to negotiate with Loras who is Renly's lover. Why is Littlefinger's closeness with Renly brought up again and again?

When is it ever brought up? Quote three times were they are mentioned to be close?

They are two fairly young individuals who both get along with pretty much everyone. There is nothing strange with two Council members talking and getting along.  Nowhere, to my knowledge, in the books is Littlefinger said to be especially close to Renly or Renly especially close to Littlefinger.  I may have missed it, if so correct me.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

Talking about what, I wonder?

They are at a Small Council meeting. Why would they not be talking with each other?

But come on, think clearly. Is a room with Varys and Pycelle present the place Littlefinger and Renly are going to be plotting against the Lannisters? They both live in the city, they would have ample of opportunity for subterfuge without doing in the same room as the Master of Spies.

Varys does not think Littlefinger is part of Renly and the Tyrells plot

The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen. Littlefinger … the gods only know what game Littlefinger is playing. Yet Lord Stark's the one who troubles my sleep. He has the bastard, he has the book, and soon enough he'll have the truth.

 

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

We see them joking around in court, we see them betting against each other for fun, Littlefinger says he knew Loras "passing well" (I.e very well) while he was at court.

Well yes, we do see them joking around with each other. Littlefinger does that with everyone.

GRRM: Book Littlefinger and television show Littlefinger are very different characters. They're probably the character that's most different from the book to the television show. There was a a line in a recent episode of the show where, he's not even present, but two people are talking about him and someone says 'Well, no one trusts Littlefinger' and 'Littlefinger has no friends.' And that's true of television show Littlefinger, but it's certainly not true of book Littlefinger. Book Littlefinger, in the book, everybody trusts him. Everybody trusts him because he seems powerless, and he's very friendly, and he's very helpful. He helps Ned Stark when he comes to town, he helps Tyrion, you know, he helps the Lannisters. He's always ready to help, to raise money. He helps Robert, Robert depends on him to finance all of his banquets and tournaments and his other follies, because Littelfinger can always raise money. So, he's everybody's friend.

 

The betting was not for fun, it was for money. Renly wished Tyrion was there as well as he could have won twice as much

Littlefinger overheard. "If you know who's going to win the second match, speak up now before Lord Renly plucks me clean," he called to her. Ned smiled.
"A pity the Imp is not here with us," Lord Renly said. "I should have won twice as much."
 
Which tells us that these three characters, amongst others, regularly bet. Tyrion is not particularly close to either Littlefinger or Renly yet had he been there he be betting with them as well.  Them betting is not evidence of anything.
1 hour ago, Peach King said:

And Littlefinger suggested putting Renly on the throne.

Not exactly and not anytime soon.

"By then he will look to you as a second father, and if not, well … four years is a good long while, my lord. Long enough to dispose of Lord Stannis. Then, should Joffrey prove troublesome, we can reveal his little secret and put Lord Renly on the throne."    

Littlefinge and Renly had not plotted to make Renly king king in four years. Littlefinger is obviously playing with Ned, trying to tempt him into corruption. He wants the honourable Ned to sink to his level. He was never going to back Ned in the Throne Room.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

 

He doesn't want Stannis on the throne because Stannis hates low lifes like him.

Few people want Stannis on the throne.

And it should be noted we really don't know Stannis' thoughts on Littleinger, he does not mention him once in the books. As GRRM points out Littlefinger in the books is not the low life he appears in the show. There is zero evidence that he hates him.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

 

And if Stannis knew of the incest, that makes it a very real danger he might be heir and then king one day. Wouldn't Littlefinger take steps to mitigate that, apart from killing Jon Arryn? Hm? Like perhaps dropping hints to Renly or flattering him and saying he would be a better king, and etc?

So why is Renly trying to make Ned Regent to Joffrey?

If Renly wanted power and Littlefinger supported it why would Renly flee the city and not strike there and then with Littleinger and the Gold Cloaks?

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

And sorry Bernie Mac, but working on a very dangerous king killing plotting plot is different from borrowing loans a few times.

Sorry but you are moving the goal posts, you claimed they barely knew each other before they plotted to kill Joffrey and that is simply not the case. I gave two instances when we the reader know they did work together, there may well be more than that. You made a baseless assumption as evidence for another baseless assumption.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

 

And it was Olenna who did it, supposedly the cautious one, the one who didn't want to support Renly. This could be a big hint she was in on the plan to wed Margaery to Robert, and worked with Littlefinger cause she's worked with him before.

Lot of what if's there, not any actual evidence.

Do you honestly think this is going to come up in the last two books?

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

Renly didn't factor in the goldcloaks at all. The goldcloaks were supposed to be under his control as Master of Laws but he didn't even utilize them.

That is not true. It was Jon Arryn who wanted Slynt replaced and it was Robert, via Littlefinger, who kept him on.

Renly may be able to convince his brother to replace Synt, though I doubt it. but he is not Slynts' master. He reports to the Small Council.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

 

By all the laws they should do what he ordered but he didn't even think of that. He only thought about the personal guards.

What laws?

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

Renly's mindset is "might is right" the Hand of the King would have the most power in his mind because of hierarchy.

That's clearly not true as he fled the city knowing that Ned was not going to win against Cersei.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

And Ned would never betray him unlike Littlefinger.

Ned imprisoned, tortured, with his daughters prisoner, might not have much choice.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

Anyway, I might be very wrong but nothing is canon until the author says so. Al Qaeda will never prevail! Adios

Everything the writer writes is canon. Theories and what not are not canon.

Thus far Renly not knowing is canon given the character has said as much. That does not mean its 100% true but until such a time in the books that someone contradicts Renly's version of events the canon answer is that Renly did not know.

Similarly in the books, this far, Jon is Ned's son. That is canon this far but we assume that in the next two books that one may well be disputed and proven to be wrong.

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23 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

When is it ever brought up? Quote three times were they are mentioned to be close?

They are two fairly young individuals who both get along with pretty much everyone. There is nothing strange with two Council members talking and getting along.  Nowhere, to my knowledge, in the books is Littlefinger said to be especially close to Renly or Renly especially close to Littlefinger.  I may have missed it, if so correct me.

They are at a Small Council meeting. Why would they not be talking with each other?

But come on, think clearly. Is a room with Varys and Pycelle present the place Littlefinger and Renly are going to be plotting against the Lannisters? They both live in the city, they would have ample of opportunity for subterfuge without doing in the same room as the Master of Spies.

Varys does not think Littlefinger is part of Renly and the Tyrells plot

The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen. Littlefinger … the gods only know what game Littlefinger is playing. Yet Lord Stark's the one who troubles my sleep. He has the bastard, he has the book, and soon enough he'll have the truth.

 

Well yes, we do see them joking around with each other. Littlefinger does that with everyone.

GRRM: Book Littlefinger and television show Littlefinger are very different characters. They're probably the character that's most different from the book to the television show. There was a a line in a recent episode of the show where, he's not even present, but two people are talking about him and someone says 'Well, no one trusts Littlefinger' and 'Littlefinger has no friends.' And that's true of television show Littlefinger, but it's certainly not true of book Littlefinger. Book Littlefinger, in the book, everybody trusts him. Everybody trusts him because he seems powerless, and he's very friendly, and he's very helpful. He helps Ned Stark when he comes to town, he helps Tyrion, you know, he helps the Lannisters. He's always ready to help, to raise money. He helps Robert, Robert depends on him to finance all of his banquets and tournaments and his other follies, because Littelfinger can always raise money. So, he's everybody's friend.

 

The betting was not for fun, it was for money. Renly wished Tyrion was there as well as he could have won twice as much

Littlefinger overheard. "If you know who's going to win the second match, speak up now before Lord Renly plucks me clean," he called to her. Ned smiled.
"A pity the Imp is not here with us," Lord Renly said. "I should have won twice as much."
 
Which tells us that these three characters, amongst others, regularly bet. Tyrion is not particularly close to either Littlefinger or Renly yet had he been there he be betting with them as well.  Them betting is not evidence of anything.

Not exactly and not anytime soon.

"By then he will look to you as a second father, and if not, well … four years is a good long while, my lord. Long enough to dispose of Lord Stannis. Then, should Joffrey prove troublesome, we can reveal his little secret and put Lord Renly on the throne."    

Littlefinge and Renly had not plotted to make Renly king king in four years. Littlefinger is obviously playing with Ned, trying to tempt him into corruption. He wants the honourable Ned to sink to his level. He was never going to back Ned in the Throne Room.

Few people want Stannis on the throne.

And it should be noted we really don't know Stannis' thoughts on Littleinger, he does not mention him once in the books. As GRRM points out Littlefinger in the books is not the low life he appears in the show. There is zero evidence that he hates him.

So why is Renly trying to make Ned Regent to Joffrey?

If Renly wanted power and Littlefinger supported it why would Renly flee the city and not strike there and then with Littleinger and the Gold Cloaks?

Sorry but you are moving the goal posts, you claimed they barely knew each other before they plotted to kill Joffrey and that is simply not the case. I gave two instances when we the reader know they did work together, there may well be more than that. You made a baseless assumption as evidence for another baseless assumption.

Lot of what if's there, not any actual evidence.

Do you honestly think this is going to come up in the last two books?

That is not true. It was Jon Arryn who wanted Slynt replaced and it was Robert, via Littlefinger, who kept him on.

Renly may be able to convince his brother to replace Synt, though I doubt it. but he is not Slynts' master. He reports to the Small Council.

What laws?

That's clearly not true as he fled the city knowing that Ned was not going to win against Cersei.

Ned imprisoned, tortured, with his daughters prisoner, might not have much choice.

Everything the writer writes is canon. Theories and what not are not canon.

Thus far Renly not knowing is canon given the character has said as much. That does not mean its 100% true but until such a time in the books that someone contradicts Renly's version of events the canon answer is that Renly did not know.

Similarly in the books, this far, Jon is Ned's son. That is canon this far but we assume that in the next two books that one may well be disputed and proven to be wrong.

Here you go, I can quote more than 3 times. 

Quote

 

Ned: “You must forgive me, but sometimes you look the very image of your brother Robert.”

“A poor copy,” Renly said with a shrug.

“Though much better dressed,” Littlefinger quipped. “Lord Renly spends more on clothing than half the ladies of the court.”

 …

“There are worse crimes,” Renly said with a laugh. “The way you dress, for one.”

Littlefinger ignored the jibe.

 

Quote

 

And puts coins in many a pocket,” Littlefinger added. “Every inn in the city is full, and the whores are walking bowlegged and jingling with every step.”

Lord Renly laughed. “We’re fortunate my brother Stannis is not with us. Remember the time he proposed to outlaw brothels? The king asked him if perhaps he’d like to outlaw eating, shitting, and breathing while he was at it. If truth be told, I ofttimes wonder how Stannis got that ugly daughter of his. He goes to his marriage bed like a man marching to battlefield, with a grim look in his eyes and a determination to do his duty.”

Ned had not joined the laughter. “I wonder about your brother Stannis as well. I wonder when he intends to end his visit to Dragonstone and resume his seat on this council.”

 “No doubt as soon as we’ve scourged all those whores into the sea,” Littlefinger replied, provoking more laughter.

 

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As Ned walked with Sansa to the archery field, Littlefinger and Lord Renly and some of the others fell in with them. “Tyrell had to know the mare was in heat,” Littlefinger was saying. “I swear the boy planned the whole thing. Gregor has always favored huge, ill-tempered stallions with more spirit than sense.” The notion seemed to amuse him.

It did not amuse Ser Barristan Selmy. “There is small honor in tricks,” the old man said stiffly.

“Small honor and twenty thousand golds.” Lord Renly smiled.

 

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"What has Renly ever done to earn a throne? He sits in council and jests with Littlefinger…”

And obviously they were not plotting anything during a Council Meeting. They were probably talking shit about Stannis.

And that quote is just wrong. Everyone finds LF slimy and no one likes him.

Stannis would def want Littlefinger gone. Littlefinger is the personification of corruption and Stannis hates corruption.

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"...there must be justice. Starting with Cersei and her abominations. But only starting. I mean to scour that court clean. As Robert should have done..." 

He also wanted to ban brothels, which are Littlefinger's main source of income.

Myself, among others, think Littlefinger was sincere in his offer to Ned. With Ned as Regent relying  heavily on Littlefinger, Littlefinger would have become the de facto Hand of the King. It's the highest office he could hope to ever achieve short of being King himself. He could marry Lysa, and even betray Ned down the road.

Littlefinger would know how to hide his tracks from Varys, he has his own spies. In that same quote Varys says he has no idea what Littlefinger was plotting.

In the scene where Ned is beheaded, Ilyn Payne and Janos move immediately to kill him, hinting Littlefinger paid them off. Varys was shocked. He didn't know about the Purple Wedding either. That means he doesn't know all of Littlefinger's plans. 

I was wrong about them not knowing each other at all but it's still weird for the Tyrells to know he's trustworthy unless they didnt already engage in high risk politics before.

And maybe I'm totally wrong about them working together. But it's not far fetched to say Littlefinger could drop some hints for Renly to pick up. 

The wiki says the gold cloaks fall under the authority of the Master of Laws. Renly threatens to get rid of Janos. It'd be strange if the Master of Laws had NO authority over the goldcloaks. The goldcloaks are the enforcers and upholders of the law after all.

And yeah, great. Its just a theory. But saying nothing supports it is going too far.

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Everyone finds LF slimy and no one likes him.

That's not true. While Jaime recognizes he's ambitious, he frames that within the bounds of what somewhat of relatively middling birth can achieve. In AFfC, he thinks he's as amiable as he is clever and considers making him Hand of the King. Cersei doesn't disagree when Orton Merryweather says much the same regarding his amiable nature, and she's eager to recall Baelish to court because she needs his help. When she rattles away at a long list of everyone who opposed or displeased her at court, notice the name that's missing:

 

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She had suffered Robert’s drunken groping, Jaime’s jealousy, Renly’s mockery, Varys with his titters, Stannis endlessly grinding his teeth. She had contended with Jon Arryn, Ned Stark, and her vile, treacherous, murderous dwarf brother, all the while promising herself that one day it would be her turn.

Littlefinger may come off as a bit unctuous and ambitious, but he goes out of his way to present a friendly face to everyone, and they think he's basically harmless because he's of no great birth.

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15 minutes ago, Ran said:

That's not true. While Jaime recognizes he's ambitious, he frames that within the bounds of what somewhat of relatively middling birth can achieve. In AFfC, he thinks he's as amiable as he is clever and considers making him Hand of the King. Cersei doesn't disagree when Orton Merryweather says much the same regarding his amiable nature, and she's eager to recall Baelish to court because she needs his help. When she rattles away at a long list of everyone who opposed or displeased her at court, notice the name that's missing:

 

Littlefinger may come off as a bit unctuous and ambitious, but he goes out of his way to present a friendly face to everyone, and they think he's basically harmless because he's of no great birth.

But most of the other POV characters dont trust him.

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She would not speak of Bran, not here, not with these men. Catelyn trusted Littlefinger only a little, and Varys not at all. She would not let them see her grief.

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Littlefinger ignored the jibe. He eyed Ned with a smile on his lips that bordered on insolence. "I have hoped to meet you for some years, Lord Stark. No doubt Lady Catelyn has mentioned me to you." "She has," Ned replied with a chill in his voice. The sly arrogance of the comment rankled him

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Ned followed him warily, wondering if this day would ever end. He had no taste for these intrigues, but he was beginning to realize that they were meat and mead to a man like Littlefinger.

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"Surely Robert has other loyal friends," he protested. "His brothers, his—" "—wife?" Varys finished, with a smile that cut. "His brothers hate the Lannisters, true enough, but hating the queen and loving the king are not quite the same thing, are they? Ser Barristan loves his honor, Grand Maester Pycelle loves his office, and Littlefinger loves Littlefinger."

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Just for a moment, he thought he saw a flicker of doubt in her eyes, but what she said was, "Why would Petyr lie to me?" "Why does a bear shit in the woods?" he demanded. "Because it is his nature. Lying comes as easily as breathing to a man like Littlefinger. You ought to know that, you of all people." She took a step toward him, her face tight. "And what does that mean, Lannister?" Tyrion cocked his head. "Why, every man at court has heard him tell how he took your maidenhead, my lady.

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Sansa seated herself beside the queen. Cersei smiled again, but that did not make her feel any less anxious. Varys was wringing his soft hands together, Grand Maester Pycelle kept his sleepy eyes on the papers in front of him, but she could feel Littlefinger staring. Something about the way the small man looked at her made Sansa feel as though she had no clothes on. Goose bumps pimpled her skin.

The Vale Lords didn't trust or like him either.

It makes more sense to say Littlefinger is underestimated. No one thinks he's powerful enough to do anything of real damage so they keep him around because he's useful.

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Posted (edited)

Your claim was that "everyone" thought him "slimey" and that "no one" liked him. That was wrong. And of the three people you quote, both Catelyn and Ned ended up trusting him, regardless of their impressions! Varys, his great rival, is hardly one to talk about untrustworthiness, so... really, Littlefinger really did get along with most people that mattered.

And Littlefinger ends up winning over several of the Lords Declarant, so...

Edited by Ran

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20 minutes ago, Ran said:

Your claim was that "everyone" thought him "slimey" and that "no one" liked him. That was wrong. And of the three people you quote, both Catelyn and Ned ended up trusting him, regardless of their impressions! Varys, his great rival, is hardly one to talk about untrustworthiness, so... really, Littlefinger really did get along with most people that mattered.

And Littlefinger ends up winning over several of the Lords Declarant, so...

Whatever, the main thing is that Stannis would not like Littlefinger and would not keep him in his court.

Catelyn only trusted him because he was her childhood friend, Ned because he's an idiot, and also because he was her childhood friend .

And the Lords Declarant were shamed into giving him a year because LF bribed Lyn into attacking him. They didn't like him at all.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Peach King said:

Whatever, the main thing is that Stannis would not like Littlefinger and would not keep him in his court.

So you’re not even pretending  that you didn’t move the goal post? Everyone dislikes him and think he’s slimy suddenly shifts to some characters. 

 

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

And the Lords Declarant were shamed into giving him a year because LF bribed Lyn into attacking him. They didn't like him at all.

Mostly because he was an outsider of the Vale. Not really particularly because they see him as slimy. LF could’ve literally been the humble well-meaning servant of the crown he present himself as. They’re reaction would’ve been the same.

 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So you’re not even pretending  that you didn’t move the goal post? Everyone dislikes him and think he’s slimy suddenly shifts to some characters. 

 

Mostly because he was an outsider of the Vale. Not really particularly because they see him as slimy. LF could’ve literally been the humble well-meaning servant of the crown he present himself as. They’re reaction would’ve been the same.

Or LF so far had proved useful and Ned had little options. Ned had painted himself into a corner and trusting LF was a gamble. It failed. 

 

Let's acknowledge that the original quote itself was wrong. I really hate this "gang up on one person" thing you guys do around here. "Everyone trusts Littlefinger". Nope, they don't. A lot of people don't. 

Yep, he painted himself into a corner because he was an idiot, exactly. If he wanted Littlefinger to stay on his side he shouldn't have needlessly insulted him all the time. He could have bought Janos Slynt himself instead of relying on Littlefinger. He could have publicized Robert's will. He could have utilized any of the powers which came being Hand instead of stumbling around like an aurochs. :rolleyes:

Edited by Peach King

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2 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Let's acknowledge that the original quote itself was wrong. I really hate this "gang up on one person" thing you guys do around here. "Everyone trusts Littlefinger". Nope, they don't. A lot of people don't. 

Stannis doesn't. But that's more or less irrelevant, since pretty much nobody likes Stannis.

Robert liked Littlefinger. Ned didn't like Littlefinger, but he trusted him. Cat liked and trusted Littlefinger, Lysa loved and trusted Littlefinger, Tywin trusts Littlefinger, Jon Arryn (most likely) trusted Littlefinger. Dontos trusted Littlefinger. Renly liked (and likely trusted) Littlefinger. Tyrion had no reason to mistrust/dislike Littlefinger until he learned of the dagger story (which he was never supposed to learn). Cersei likes and trusts Littlefinger. Jaime ends up trusting Littlefinger (although he is suspicious of him back in AGoT during the conversation Bran overhears, causing a possible contradiction there).

But it is quite clear that Littlefinger's entire modus operandi and all success he had had so far is based entirely on the fact that he is a very sympathetic, useful, and apparently harmless guy.

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Posted (edited)

Jamie knew Cersei knew bran knew Jon Arryn knew little finger knew varys knew stannis knew renly knew some washer woman who told lord tywin knew the 100 knights who would rather read then fight knew davos all the small lords of the realm the beauty knew lady cat. Dragonstone knew storms end knew. Some bloke around the street selling watchings knew think his name is mike. Rob Stark knew. Blood raven knew ophra knew if she knew then ellen knew aswell. the list goes on and on and on oh and we know as the readers so go us for solving it before scooby doo 

Edited by desire

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