Dany and child murder

[John Suburbs]

On 8/30/2019 at 1:37 PM, SeanF said:

You're making the argument for doing nothing, in the face of evil.  Which is the soft moral option. You might as well argue that modern governments should do nothing to end slavery, because somebody will lose out.  

As it happens, I think that free enterprise has lifted millions out of poverty.

Not doing nothing, but not bringing more evil into the world to undo the evil that already exists. Free enterprise has lifted millions out of poverty, mostly in Asia, but if you've ever seen a Chinese sweat shop, you might reconsider the true impact of all this lifting.

https://www.dosomething.org/us/facts/11-facts-about-sweatshops

This is subsistence living at best and slavery-in-all-but-name at worst. But the solution is to not raze entire cities to the ground and kill off the wealthy populations that are exploiting these people but to work systemically to bring about peaceful social change.

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, John Suburbs said:

Not doing nothing, but not bringing more evil into the world to undo the evil that already exists. Free enterprise has lifted millions out of poverty, mostly in Asia, but if you've ever seen a Chinese sweat shop, you might reconsider the true impact of all this lifting.

https://www.dosomething.org/us/facts/11-facts-about-sweatshops

This is subsistence living at best and slavery-in-all-but-name at worst. But the solution is to not raze entire cities to the ground and kill off the wealthy populations that are exploiting these people but to work systemically to bring about peaceful social change.

While that's true, peaceful social change is not an option in Slavers Bay.

[John Suburbs]

On 8/31/2019 at 6:35 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

I don't think she'd have kiddos killed, even if it were strategic (unlike Tywin), is what I meant. They're her weakness.

"Drogo is so rich that even his slaves wear golden collars [...] They dressed her in the wisps that Magister Illyrio had sent up, and then the gown [...] Last of all came the collar, a heavy golden torc emblazoned with ancient Valyrian glyphs."

“He can have her tomorrow, if he likes,” her brother said. He glanced over at Dany, and she lowered her eyes. “So long as he pays the price.”"

"Illyrio could afford to be lavish. He had collected a fortune in horses and slaves for his part in selling her to Khal Drogo."

"I'd let his whole khalasar fuck you if need be, sweet sister, all forty thousand men, and their horses too if that was what it took to get my army."

She's never been whipped, though. I'll give you that.

If Dany was enslaved by being married to Drogo in order to advance Viserys' political ambitions, then every Westerosi lord who ever married their daughter for political reasons is a slaver and deserves to die. This includes Ned Stark, Tyrion, Mace Tyrell, Doran Martell, and lords Hightower, Redwyne, Lannister, Tully, and, well, virtually every lord who ever lived, and more than likely much of the mercantile class and the peasantry.

[Hugorfonics]

 

16 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

And in following her they devote themselves totally to her cause and must follow her orders to the death, all with no pay, just like slaves.

I dont think thats true. The second sons got regular paychecks, so why wouldnt the rest of her army?

Similarly Im pretty sure that Westerosi smallfolk get paid too. (Obviously Weasel/Nan never collected a paycheck, but she's a kid. Im pretty sure her bosses at Harrenhall got paid) Likewise the KG and NW also collect paychecks as Alayaya and Moles Town thrive.

After all, slavery is illigal.

21 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

yet you do place responsibility for 10,000 years of slavery on some tokar-wearing boy who has done nothing to cause it either and has never harmed anyone, slave or free, in his life. Sorry, but to that I have to call major league hypocrisy. 

So I just read this book Fevere Dream by GRRM. It takes place in the southern U.S pre civil war. The protagonist, Abner Marsh, who did not consider himself an abolitionist eventually reached this conclusion

Quote

You can't just go... usin' another kind of people, like they wasn't people at all. Know what I mean? Got to end, sooner or later. Better if it ends peaceful, but it's got to end even if it has to be with fire and blood, you see?

Fire and Blood baby, its sometimes the only way

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

6 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

It still points up the fallacy that slavery is not a choice. These people chose slavery. It was their choice. As slaves they also have a choice, even if it is choosing the lesser of two evils. Being a peasant in Westeros is not a choice either. Do you think a swineheard would choose swinehearding if he could be a noble instead? Would a noble choose to be a swineheard? Very few people in this world have actual choices.

Do you remember the tale of the three weaverwomen? Their master came to Dany asking for a cut of their business because he trained them and they were using his loom. Dany told him to take a hike because they had already paid their debts. Then they were killed by the SoH.

So here were three women who were living a fairly comfortable lives making tapestries in exchange for food, clothing, a nice place to live and protection -- pretty much the same deal that a free weaver in Westeros would get. Along comes Dany and frees them, essentially giving them their "freedom" but taking away their comfortable lives (since I can't believe their is huge demand for tapestries in Meereen at the moment; Dany has one, and that was "given" to her) and, more importantly, their protection. They paid with their lives, and they had no choice in any of this: no choice to be a slave, no choice to be free, and no choice but to be raped and killed

People don't choose to be slaves, there are people who chose to every single occupation. No, if given the choice between swinhearding & being a noble most wouldn't pick swinehearding but they still made a choice to be a swineheard. No one came along & beat them or torture them until they agreed to be a swineheard. I mean given the choice I would win the lottery & never work again, that doesn't mean I have no choices or that I'm not free. 

Them being killed by the SoH has nothing to do with it. It shows a tragic end to a tragic story but none of that equates that they chose slavery. 

 

10 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

If they were unsatisfied with their situation they had all the means at their disposal to change it, just like Craster's wives. They were the only armed men in Astapor. But you are forgetting one salient fact about the Unsullied: they drink daily doses of the wine of courage. Ostensibly this is to deaden their pain, but I suspect it has a mind-deadening, hypnotic affect as well to make them docile and obedient. So they are a special case when considering whether they are satisfied or not, since they are basically drugged. I suspect that Varys' little birds are given the same thing.

They did not have all the means at their disposal to change it. They were beaten down mentally & physically from the time they were boys until now. Maybe some had enough left in them to consider revolting but they would never be able to talk the rest of them into it. I didn't forget about the drink they give the Unsullied. I would assume it has a mind-deadening affect as well. Just one more reason why they wouldn't revolt although they may be unhappy with their situation. 

I feel like we keep getting our wires crossed, or are not expressing ourselves clearly to the other person: Craster's wives can be miserable with their situation AND not leave it. The two are not mutually exclusive. For different reasons, Craster's wives, the Unsullied, & the slaves can all be completely & utterly miserable with their situation but feel they have no choices to change it. It does not mean they choose this life or that they are content in it. We see it happen every day IRL. People are held captive & mentally beaten to the point that when they do have the opportunity to escape they don't - Stockholm syndrome. Not to say all of the above have Stockholm syndrome but I would guarantee some of them do. 

15 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

But their situation is no better or worse now that they follow Dany. They are soldiers. They fight, they die. Nothing has changed for them. Even their "choice" to follow her as free men is the same as the "choice" between slavery and death. Those that do not follow her will die, as sure as shootin'. And in following her they devote themselves totally to her cause and must follow her orders to the death, all with no pay, just like slaves.

No, their situation is very much changed. No one will torture them, no one will beat them, no one will make them drink numbing drinks, no one will make them kill puppies or babies, matter of fact no one will make them kill anyone they don't want to. If they were so inclined they could get up & walk away from Daenerys's camp & never look back. All these things were something they were not true before. Because they have been bred & raised & had in brainwashed into them that they are soldiers most of them will continue to fight no doubt. But their situation is much different than before. It isn't just like slaves because they are not being physically made to do these things. 

 

18 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

But I get what you are saying as well. Freedom is always preferable to bondage. But I submit that you look at this situation through the eyes of the characters, not those of a 21st Century member of a free, liberal, democratic society. Most Westerosi commoners abhor the idea of slavery because their religion and their culture has taught them that bondage is bad. Many slaves in Essos, if not most, are terrified at the thought of freedom because of all the uncertainty it brings to life. Send some glib-talking, power figure into either society, however, who tells people how much better life will be under their leadership, and see how many will fight and die to upend the old order.

I understand & I don't disagree really. There are many people whose lives under Daenerys are worse than when they were slaves & as you said change scares people. In all fairness I think many more slaves would fight if they knew absolutely, positively, they would win. Part of the con of rising up is that if you don't come out on top you will most likely be punished severely afterwards. Maybe my mind is just too conditioned to ever accept slavery as a viable option, because to me, even though some people are worse off, to have slavery end is worth it. 

 

22 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

And one more point before I leave this thread: you and I are not responsible for poverty, and you absolve Dany of any blame for all the misery that has happened since she crushed Astapor and Meereen, and yet you do place responsibility for 10,000 years of slavery on some tokar-wearing boy who has done nothing to cause it either and has never harmed anyone, slave or free, in his life. Sorry, but to that I have to call major league hypocrisy. 

But I don't. I don't absolve Dany of any & all misery, some are a direct result of her meddling in the slavers affairs. I just think it's worth it. She is doing something good & while the end does not always justify the means, for the most part, I think hers do (so far). I also don't blame the slavery on some tokar wearing boy who has done nothing to cause it or has harmed no one. I've stated explicitly I don't know if I agree with the "12 year old, tokar wearing" command. I don't feel like I can make a decision about it one way or the other TBH because there are too many unknowns. Why did Dany pick 12? If this is because it's just the number that sounded good to her at the time then no, I don't agree. If this is because she has some information we haven't been privy to in regards to 12 year olds - then I might. I most certainly would never, ever, ever, agree that killing someone, child or adult, that has never harmed anyone, is an ok or just thing to do. We just do not know if any of the tokar wearing boys harmed anyone or not. I would need that information before I would be willing to place blame with them or feel the punishment is just. 

[John Suburbs]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

While that's true, peaceful social change is not an option in Slavers Bay.

It was. It just would have been more difficult. She could just as easily have ordered the slaves freed and the slavers rounded up and not harmed. After that, I'm not sure how she would go about replacing a 10,000-year-old culture with one in which everyone is "free," because there certainly is no other society like that in asioaf that I'm aware of. Maybe the Summer Isles? Can the highborn maidens there refuse to be honored by their love gods?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

15 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

It was. It just would have been more difficult. She could just as easily have ordered the slaves freed and the slavers rounded up and not harmed. After that, I'm not sure how she would go about replacing a 10,000-year-old culture with one in which everyone is "free," because there certainly is no other society like that in asioaf that I'm aware of. Maybe the Summer Isles? Can the highborn maidens there refuse to be honored by their love gods?

She most certainly didn't have to scorch them. There are other ways. It would take much longer but it would be more peaceful & I would assume less devastating. I think we are seeing some of Dany's temper here. "Waking the dragon". 

It could be argued that most people, even IRL, today are not "free" I think for the purposes of this discussion free means not a slave. 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

It was. It just would have been more difficult. She could just as easily have ordered the slaves freed and the slavers rounded up and not harmed. After that, I'm not sure how she would go about replacing a 10,000-year-old culture with one in which everyone is "free," because there certainly is no other society like that in asioaf that I'm aware of. Maybe the Summer Isles? Can the highborn maidens there refuse to be honored by their love gods?

Things change eventually, but it could take hundreds of years.

And, in-universe, slavery is harming not just the slaves, but many non-slaves. Qarth and Volantis and Meereen are all in gradual decline, and plenty of inland cities have been destroyed by Dothraki slave raids.

[Darth Sidious]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

It was. It just would have been more difficult. She could just as easily have ordered the slaves freed and the slavers rounded up and not harmed. After that, I'm not sure how she would go about replacing a 10,000-year-old culture with one in which everyone is "free," because there certainly is no other society like that in asioaf that I'm aware of. Maybe the Summer Isles? Can the highborn maidens there refuse to be honored by their love gods?

A peaceful resolution is not possible in Slaver's Bay because the slave-owning class is getting all the benefits and never had to work for anything.  In other words, it was paradise to the Ghiscari slave owners.  Slavery is wrong and they knew it.  They have known it for thousands of years.  It never stopped them from slaving.  The only way to free the slaves is by force.  The slave-owning masters were never going to give up their slaves.  It's like asking the Arabs to give their oil at a time when the price per barrel is at an all-time high.  The fighting pits demanded its constant share of flesh.  The mines as well.  

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

She most certainly didn't have to scorch them. There are other ways. It would take much longer but it would be more peaceful & I would assume less devastating. I think we are seeing some of Dany's temper here. "Waking the dragon". 

It could be argued that most people, even IRL, today are not "free" I think for the purposes of this discussion free means not a slave. 

They had to be scorched.  She should have done more because their spirit and will are still intact.  That's why their underground terrorists group, The Harpy, is actively working to bring back slavery.  The Harpy is a more active pro-slavery group than the real Ku Klux Klan.  The Harpy doesn't hold rallies to drum up political and social support, they commit violence and acts of terrorism to support the return of slavery.  That is as evil as it gets.  Oh and those tokar-wearing men, yeah, they had to be killed because they will never accept the end to slavery.  They will surely do what they can to raise an army and attack behind them before they get to Yunkai.  It was necessary to slay those men.  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

30 minutes ago, Anti-Stark said:

A peaceful resolution is not possible in Slaver's Bay because the slave-owning class is getting all the benefits and never had to work for anything.  In other words, it was paradise to the Ghiscari slave owners.  Slavery is wrong and they knew it.  They have known it for thousands of years.  It never stopped them from slaving.  The only way to free the slaves is by force.  The slave-owning masters were never going to give up their slaves.  It's like asking the Arabs to give their oil at a time when the price per barrel is at an all-time high.  The fighting pits demanded its constant share of flesh.  The mines as well.  

They had to be scorched.  She should have done more because their spirit and will are still intact.  That's why their underground terrorists group, The Harpy, is actively working to bring back slavery.  The Harpy is a more active pro-slavery group than the real Ku Klux Klan.  The Harpy doesn't hold rallies to drum up political and social support, they commit violence and acts of terrorism to support the return of slavery.  That is as evil as it gets.  Oh and those tokar-wearing men, yeah, they had to be killed because they will never accept the end to slavery.  They will surely do what they can to raise an army and attack behind them before they get to Yunkai.  It was necessary to slay those men.  

Not at all. It may have been necessary to force them but not to scorch them. Also, as previously noted all the tokar wearing people are not men. Some are as young as 12. Maybe younger. We don't really know. We know Daenerys ordered 12 & above to be killed but we don't really know where the age 12 came from. 

[Wall Flower]

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

It still points up the fallacy that slavery is not a choice. These people chose slavery. It was their choice. As slaves they also have a choice, even if it is choosing the lesser of two evils. Being a peasant in Westeros is not a choice either. Do you think a swineheard would choose swinehearding if he could be a noble instead? Would a noble choose to be a swineheard? Very few people in this world have actual choices.

Do you remember the tale of the three weaverwomen? Their master came to Dany asking for a cut of their business because he trained them and they were using his loom. Dany told him to take a hike because they had already paid their debts. Then they were killed by the SoH.

So here were three women who were living a fairly comfortable lives making tapestries in exchange for food, clothing, a nice place to live and protection -- pretty much the same deal that a free weaver in Westeros would get. Along comes Dany and frees them, essentially giving them their "freedom" but taking away their comfortable lives (since I can't believe their is huge demand for tapestries in Meereen at the moment; Dany has one, and that was "given" to her) and, more importantly, their protection. They paid with their lives, and they had no choice in any of this: no choice to be a slave, no choice to be free, and no choice but to be raped and killed.

 

If they were unsatisfied with their situation they had all the means at their disposal to change it, just like Craster's wives. They were the only armed men in Astapor. But you are forgetting one salient fact about the Unsullied: they drink daily doses of the wine of courage. Ostensibly this is to deaden their pain, but I suspect it has a mind-deadening, hypnotic affect as well to make them docile and obedient. So they are a special case when considering whether they are satisfied or not, since they are basically drugged. I suspect that Varys' little birds are given the same thing.

But their situation is no better or worse now that they follow Dany. They are soldiers. They fight, they die. Nothing has changed for them. Even their "choice" to follow her as free men is the same as the "choice" between slavery and death. Those that do not follow her will die, as sure as shootin'. And in following her they devote themselves totally to her cause and must follow her orders to the death, all with no pay, just like slaves.

But I get what you are saying as well. Freedom is always preferable to bondage. But I submit that you look at this situation through the eyes of the characters, not those of a 21st Century member of a free, liberal, democratic society. Most Westerosi commoners abhor the idea of slavery because their religion and their culture has taught them that bondage is bad. Many slaves in Essos, if not most, are terrified at the thought of freedom because of all the uncertainty it brings to life. Send some glib-talking, power figure into either society, however, who tells people how much better life will be under their leadership, and see how many will fight and die to upend the old order.

And one more point before I leave this thread: you and I are not responsible for poverty, and you absolve Dany of any blame for all the misery that has happened since she crushed Astapor and Meereen, and yet you do place responsibility for 10,000 years of slavery on some tokar-wearing boy who has done nothing to cause it either and has never harmed anyone, slave or free, in his life. Sorry, but to that I have to call major league hypocrisy. 

I don't know why discussions about Dany always seem to lead to someone effectively endorsing slavery and defending slave-traders.

It doesn't matter how well slaves are treated. The basic premise of slavery is that it reduces human beings to the status of livestock or goods - to property that can be bought and sold. Slaves don't have human rights because the institution of slavery reduces them to being less than human. Whatever Dany's flaws, it is to her credit that she sees the slaves of Astapor and Mereen as human beings.

It's not really clear what the position of the small folk in Westeros is but medieval serfs were unfree in the sense that they were tied to the land. However, they could not be bought or sold and there was a sense of mutual obligation between lord and serfs - protection and land to till in return for service to the lord. Westeros' small folk definitely need better legal rights but that's not an argument for the benefits of slavery. I note that it was a Targaryen king who passed laws to extend rights to the smallfolk and the good old nobility that Dany is seeking to rule, who viewed that as unwonted tyranny. Those who benefit from power don't give it up willingly.

The three women weavers must have been making money because their former master wanted a cut of it. It's possible to weave other things besides tapestries or to trade tapestries to other cities. They died because it's not in the interests of the Sons of the Harpy for slaves to be seen to make a success of their freedom or for a free economy to get a foothold in Mereen.

The most economically powerful city in Essos is Braavos, the city comprised of runaway slaves, who apparently did value their freedom and knew what to do with it.

The idea of slavery being a choice ignores how often in real history a minority has been able to rule a majority. Power, wealth and the tactics of fear and terror can go a long way to cowing a population but I can't help thinking that Dany was only a catalyst for a boil-over that was brewing anyway. 

 

[Pontius Pilate]

9 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

I dont think thats true. The second sons got regular paychecks, so why wouldnt the rest of her army?

Similarly Im pretty sure that Westerosi smallfolk get paid too. (Obviously Weasel/Nan never collected a paycheck, but she's a kid. Im pretty sure her bosses at Harrenhall got paid) Likewise the KG and NW also collect paychecks as Alayaya and Moles Town thrive.

After all, slavery is illigal.

So I just read this book Fevere Dream by GRRM. It takes place in the southern U.S pre civil war. The protagonist, Abner Marsh, who did not consider himself an abolitionist eventually reached this conclusion

Fire and Blood baby, its sometimes the only way

You've got me curious.  I will check out that book.  Speaking of the U.S. civil war.  That didn't get resolved peacefully.  The south gave all kinds of excuses, even the bible, to justify slavery.  It failed on every moral test.  Young boys fought for the south and they were killed.  Age isn't really a factor.  It's war.  The question has to be asked:  did the slavers spare children because of their age?  Nope.  They gave no mercy so why should they get any mercy.  To the OP, the execution of every master 12 years and older is as close to getting justice as we've gotten in the series.  

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 minutes ago, Centurion Piso said:

You've got me curious.  I will check out that book

It's a good book. I read somewhere that George says it's his favorite of the books he has written. It's no aSoIaF but good still. 

[Pontius Pilate]

Just now, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It's a good book. I read somewhere that George says it's his favorite of the books he has written. It's no aSoIaF but good still. 

I am sold.  It is going to be my next reading material.  

[Rose of Red Lake]

13 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

It was. It just would have been more difficult. She could just as easily have ordered the slaves freed and the slavers rounded up and not harmed. After that, I'm not sure how she would go about replacing a 10,000-year-old culture with one in which everyone is "free," because there certainly is no other society like that in asioaf that I'm aware of. Maybe the Summer Isles? Can the highborn maidens there refuse to be honored by their love gods?

I agree, it was moderately successful. For example the people carrying her litter are paid a wage now. Realistically it should be a long road, whether through violence or compromise.

I think the Harpy is fighting her not because they want their slaves back, but because she erred by humiliating them. She also has former masters ploweing her fields so she doesn't grasp the concept of dignity as a strategy. Radical groups are formed when people who previously held power feel humiliated and scorned by a sudden loss of power (like Viserys and Dany hint hint). So she humiliated them unnecessarily and also denied them death with dignity. She is unnecessarily cruel and barbaric with eye for an eye. 

If the Targaryens ended the war with Dorne through marriage and not through mass violence, I don't know why the author would suddenly have "bombs away" fixing Meerreen. The Hizdahr marriage was a signal to the upper class that she would work with them. It wasnt useless. There was a new guard of upper class who wanted change, who could swing members to their side to form coalitions. 

Every Dany decision goes like this: she has an amazing show of strength in a glorious POWER MOVE and then then things go to shit. Fantasy, then reality sets in.

That's why whatever she does in Meereen will probably only invite more blowback, like not being able to solve massive social problems like hunger just because she burned everyone in a tokar to death (similar to what she realizes in the Red Waste). Also, burning everyone in a tokar again is stupid because it involves no use of her brain WHAT so ever. Just ride that drone around, I guess.

[Hodor the Articulate]

11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I dont think thats true. The second sons got regular paychecks, so why wouldnt the rest of her army?

Similarly Im pretty sure that Westerosi smallfolk get paid too. (Obviously Weasel/Nan never collected a paycheck, but she's a kid. Im pretty sure her bosses at Harrenhall got paid) Likewise the KG and NW also collect paychecks as Alayaya and Moles Town thrive.

After all, slavery is illigal.

Didn't the Unsullied visit brothels too? I'm pretty sure the prostitutes weren't providing their time for free, even if all they were doing was literally laying together. So the Unsullied must have received some sort of payment.

12 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

If Dany was enslaved by being married to Drogo in order to advance Viserys' political ambitions, then every Westerosi lord who ever married their daughter for political reasons is a slaver and deserves to die. This includes Ned Stark, Tyrion, Mace Tyrell, Doran Martell, and lords Hightower, Redwyne, Lannister, Tully, and, well, virtually every lord who ever lived, and more than likely much of the mercantile class and the peasantry. 

I'm just saying, Dany's situation fit your description of a slave. The only thing she wasn't subject to was whipping, but according to you there are plenty of slaves that lived very comfortable lives and therefore can't have been whipped either.

I think the thing you're missing here is, a slave in SB could be whipped and there would be no legal ramifications for their master. Meanwhile, if this happened to a peasant in Westeros, they would be able to seek justice from their lord. They lord may or may not hear them out but that is irrelevant. The point is, the opportunity is afforded to the free peasant whereas the slave has no such rights.

Your argument that the freedmen had better living conditions as slaves is a more interesting take, but you'd have to justify why the desires of the few are more valid than that of the majority. (And it IS a majority that thinks freedom is better or Volantis wouldn't be on the brink of a slave rebellion, and the former slaves of SB wouldn't be so fiercely loyal to Dany). Moreover, there many former slaves whose situations have improved - why should their lives be dismissed? Are their living standards immediately after a massive social upheaval vs. their previous living standards even a relevant comparison?

[Hodor the Articulate]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I agree, it was moderately successful. For example the people carrying her litter are paid a wage now. Realistically it should be a long road, whether through violence or compromise.

I think the Harpy is fighting her not because they want their slaves back, but because she erred by humiliating them. She also has former masters ploweing her fields so she doesn't grasp the concept of dignity as a strategy. Radical groups are formed when people who previously held power feel humiliated and scorned by a sudden loss of power (like Viserys and Dany hint hint). So she humiliated them unnecessarily and also denied them death with dignity. She is unnecessarily cruel and barbaric with eye for an eye. 

If the Targaryens ended the war with Dorne through marriage and not through mass violence, I don't know why the author would suddenly have "bombs away" fixing Meerreen. The Hizdahr marriage was a signal to the upper class that she would work with them. It wasnt useless. There was a new guard of upper class who wanted change, who could swing members to their side to form coalitions. 

Every Dany decision goes like this: she has an amazing show of strength in a glorious POWER MOVE and then then things go to shit. Fantasy, then reality sets in.

That's why whatever she does in Meereen will probably only invite more blowback, like not being able to solve massive social problems like hunger just because she burned everyone in a tokar to death (similar to what she realizes in the Red Waste). Also, burning everyone in a tokar again is stupid because it involves no use of her brain WHAT so ever. Just ride that drone around, I guess.

Yes, I'm sure if she just, like, asked them to end slavery nicely, they totally would've. Like, the only reason Volantis and Qarth are still sending warships out, even after Dany married Hizzy and made several compromises to the Great Masters, is because their bro Meereen is, like, totes embarrassed. They don't even care about having slaves. Slavers just want dignity #respect4slavers

[Rose of Red Lake]

58 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Yes, I'm sure if she just, like, asked them to end slavery nicely, they totally would've. Like, the only reason Volantis and Qarth are still sending warships out, even after Dany married Hizzy and made several compromises to the Great Masters, is because their bro Meereen is, like, totes embarrassed. They don't even care about having slaves. Slavers just want dignity #respect4slavers

Evil slavers vs. Dany, the bright and shiny beacon of goodness. Harry Potter is more nuanced for fuck’s sake. 

This isn’t a society where everyone is homogeneous , and the villains aren’t as clear cut as you’d like them to be just so your fav can look like the hero. We know GRRM doesn’t do simple, clear cut, easy heroes vs. villains and here is no exception. 

Read the Meerenese Blot sometime, it lays it all out:

“The idea that the Yunkish all along were simply taking advantage of Dany’s naivete, laughing at her, and plotting treacheries simply is not supported by the text. Like the Harpy, they appear to have genuinely sought a peace, and reached it. . .So, for both the Harpy and the Yunkish, it seems that the supposedly one-dimensional, obviously treacherous, villainous slavers are actually rational actors, able to agree on a mutually beneficial peace. In both cases, the peace deals agreed upon are not scuttled by any actions from the slavers. The Harpy peace is ruined by Barristan’s coup, and the Yunkish peace is ruined by the Drogon-caused disaster at the fighting pits.”

The terms of peace were that slavery would continue in other cities, but not in Meereen. Dany achieved peace in her city, but the fighting pits changed everything, as the Shavepate explains. They were afraid of dragons, and Yurkhaz had read his histories. Implying that, he knew more about the region than Dany herself. That Drogon-caused disaster was Dany’s decision to ride a dragon at the worst possible time, and burn hundreds of people with her on his back, people who were there in good faith watching the games, including Yurkhaz, who was the “old lion” holding the “jackals” at bay. She had the nuclear deterrent and peace and traded it for an orgasm on Drogon.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Evil slavers vs. Dany, the bright and shiny beacon of goodness. Harry Potter is more nuanced for fuck’s sake. 

This isn’t a society where everyone is homogeneous , and the villains aren’t as clear cut as you’d like them to be just so your fav can look like the hero. We know GRRM doesn’t do simple, clear cut, easy heroes vs. villains and here is no exception. 

Read the Meerenese Blot sometime, it lays it all out:

“The idea that the Yunkish all along were simply taking advantage of Dany’s naivete, laughing at her, and plotting treacheries simply is not supported by the text. Like the Harpy, they appear to have genuinely sought a peace, and reached it. . .So, for both the Harpy and the Yunkish, it seems that the supposedly one-dimensional, obviously treacherous, villainous slavers are actually rational actors, able to agree on a mutually beneficial peace. In both cases, the peace deals agreed upon are not scuttled by any actions from the slavers. The Harpy peace is ruined by Barristan’s coup, and the Yunkish peace is ruined by the Drogon-caused disaster at the fighting pits.”

The terms of peace were that slavery would continue in other cities, but not in Meereen. Dany achieved peace in her city, but the fighting pits changed everything, as the Shavepate explains. They were afraid of dragons, and Yurkhaz had read his histories. Implying that, he knew more about the region than Dany herself. That Drogon-caused disaster was Dany’s decision to ride a dragon at the worst possible time, and burn hundreds of people with her on his back, people who were there in good faith watching the games, including Yurkhaz, who was the “old lion” holding the “jackals” at bay. She had the nuclear deterrent and peace and traded it for an orgasm on Drogon.

The Meereenese Blot is good, but it overlooks the role of Volantis.  The Old Blood know that Daenerys is an existential threat to them, even if she wants to live in peace with them, because they face a social and religious revolution in her name.  They have to destroy her before this revolution breaks out and no doubt they see the chance to make a land grab in Slavers Bay.

The Slavers were certainly not a monolithic group.  Some, like the Yellow Whale and Hizdahr were willing to tolerate Daenerys.  Why not?  They keep their wealth and power, and if Meereen is out of the slave trade, it means more profit for Yunkai. And, no doubt they have no wish to become a Volantene colony.  But, Tyrion's chapters point to another party - those who had called in the Volantenes, or mercenary captains like Bloodbeard, who were keen to sack Meereen.  The peace was built on very shaky foundations.

[Rose of Red Lake]

11 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The Meereenese Blot is good, but it overlooks the role of Volantis.  The Old Blood know that Daenerys is an existential threat to them, even if she wants to live in peace with them, because they face a social and religious revolution in her name.  They have to destroy her before this revolution breaks out and no doubt they see the chance to make a land grab in Slavers Bay.

The Slavers were certainly not a monolithic group.  Some, like the Yellow Whale and Hizdahr were willing to tolerate Daenerys.  Why not?  They keep their wealth and power, and if Meereen is out of the slave trade, it means more profit for Yunkai. And, no doubt they have no wish to become a Volantene colony.  But, Tyrion's chapters point to another party - those who had called in the Volantenes, or mercenary captains like Bloodbeard, who were keen to sack Meereen.  The peace was built on very shaky foundations.

Meereen would actually be an easily defensible city to beat back Volantis if there was a clear cut line between external aggressor and defender, which the peace would have helped with. It was important that the shadow war stop, to unite against any other attacks and also to identify people who were still going to work with her. Now it’s just chaos and more people will die than is necessary because she can’t tell friend from foe.

Hizdahr is one example of how slavery can be ended with mercantilism. When the slave market crashed he made a different investment. So they can be reasoned with and sometimes it’s not necessary to burn them allz to send a message. Barth says the unspoken threat is more useful than the obvious one. Dany hasn’t really grasped subtlety so she will probably nuke lots of people, including reasonable opportunists who would have worked with her. 

Dany can’t fix these regions by herself across an entire continent in a short time, so compromising for the time being, not actually riding dragons to burn people but keeping them around, and only focusing on Meereen was working.