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Rose of Red Lake

Dany and child murder

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Posted (edited)

Quote 1: “Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see.” - Daenerys, ASOS

Quote 2: “In death he looked even younger than he had with blade in hand. “A boy,” said Dany. “He was only a boy.”
“Six-and-ten,” Hizdahr insisted. “A man grown, who freely chose to risk his life for gold and glory. No children die today in Daznak’s, as my gentle queen in her wisdom has decreed.” - Daenerys, ADWD

Quote 3: "A boy came, younger than Dany, slight and scarred, dressed up in a frayed grey tokar trailing silver fringe. His voice broke when he told of how two of his father's household slaves had risen up the night the gate broke. One had slain his father, the other his elder brother. Both had raped his mother before killing her as well. The boy had escaped with no more than the scar upon his face, but one of the murderers was still living in his father's house, and the other had joined the queen's soldiers as one of the Mother's Men. He wanted them both hanged. I am queen over a city built on dust and death. Dany had no choice but to deny him. She had declared a blanket pardon for all crimes committed during the sack. Nor would she punish slaves for rising up against their masters."- Daenerys, ADWD

Several questions here - 

First, is everyone who wears a tokar a slave master? Or, is the tokar the garment worn by free people, some of which are slave owners, some are not?

Second, at what age is a person in Slavers Bay responsible for slavery?

Third, would a person wearing a tokar, who is 12 years old, have been killed in the sack? If so, did Dany sanction child murder? (quotes 1, 2, 3)

Fourth, if she thinks 16 is a child, where did she come up with the number 12 before this? (referring to quote 1 and 2)

Finally, would you consider Mirri Maz Duur a slave who rose up against her master? (referring to Quote 3)

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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All wars kill children.  It would be naive to think Robb Stark didn’t know this when he rebelled.  Catelyn knew it and kidnaps Tyrion anyway.  Jon knew attacking the Boltons will kill many women, old people, and innocents who have nothing to do with his feud with Ramsay.  It didn’t stop him from trying until Marsh knifed him.  Robert rebelled rather than give his life even knowing war kill thousands of children.  Stannis attacked KL even though he knew it would kill thousands of children.   Daenerys Targaryen’s war against the slavers is the most justified use of force because it can lead to the freedom of millions, even if some children get sacrificed in the process.  

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Quote 1: “Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see.” - Daenerys, ASOS

Quote 2: “In death he looked even younger than he had with blade in hand. “A boy,” said Dany. “He was only a boy.”
“Six-and-ten,” Hizdahr insisted. “A man grown, who freely chose to risk his life for gold and glory. No children die today in Daznak’s, as my gentle queen in her wisdom has decreed.” - Daenerys, ADWD

Quote 3: "A boy came, younger than Dany, slight and scarred, dressed up in a frayed grey tokar trailing silver fringe. His voice broke when he told of how two of his father's household slaves had risen up the night the gate broke. One had slain his father, the other his elder brother. Both had raped his mother before killing her as well. The boy had escaped with no more than the scar upon his face, but one of the murderers was still living in his father's house, and the other had joined the queen's soldiers as one of the Mother's Men. He wanted them both hanged. I am queen over a city built on dust and death. Dany had no choice but to deny him. She had declared a blanket pardon for all crimes committed during the sack. Nor would she punish slaves for rising up against their masters."- Daenerys, ADWD

Several questions here - 

First, is everyone who wears a tokar a slave master? Or, is the tokar the garment worn by free people, some of which are slave owners, some are not?

Second, at what age is a person in Slavers Bay responsible for slavery?

Third, would a person wearing a tokar, who is 12 years old, have been killed in the sack? If so, did Dany sanction child murder? (quotes 1, 2, 3)

Fourth, if she thinks 16 is a child, where did she come up with the number 12 before this? (referring to quote 1 and 2)

Finally, would you consider Mirri Maz Duur a slave who rose up against her master? (referring to Quote 3)

1.  As far as I know, it was the garment worn by free people.  A lot of whom own slaves, but treat them in different ways and have different numbers.

2.  Counter question, responsible to WHOM?  to Dany, she seems to have considered anyone over the age of 12 and male to bear the responsibility for perpetrating the system.

3.  Yes, they would possibly have been killed.  But age in those days is a sometimes vague thing that not all societies really tracked carefully.   

4.  Dany is herself still very young, and she's pretty inconsistent about her decisions.  She pretty obviously doesn't really know what she's doing most of the time.  She didn't recieve training in leadership or ruling, and has largely made a pretty big mess of it.  So she was likely just speaking from her emotions and feelings, without trying to come up with a reasoned response.

5.  Me?  Yes.  All these societies are hypocrtical and self centered.  

Something you should remmeber, is that Dany was herself sold as a child bride, and was previously to that physically abused by her ownly caretaker.  She's had a horrifically unstable family life growing up.  And in the books she's thrust into a position of responsibility and extreme power without any preperation or (for most of the time), good advice.  So of course she makes a mess of things.  Imagine giving any 15 year old girl you know 3 WMDs and making her responsible for the survival of several hundred people, and seeing how that turned out.

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3 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

All wars kill children.  It would be naive to think Robb Stark didn’t know this when he rebelled.  Catelyn knew it and kidnaps Tyrion anyway.  Jon knew attacking the Boltons will kill many women, old people, and innocents who have nothing to do with his feud with Ramsay.  It didn’t stop him from trying until Marsh knifed him.  Robert rebelled rather than give his life even knowing war kill thousands of children.  Stannis attacked KL even though he knew it would kill thousands of children.   Daenerys Targaryen’s war against the slavers is the most justified use of force because it can lead to the freedom of millions, even if some children get sacrificed in the process.  

Ok, so my understanding is, you agree it was child murder. Was she aware though? It seems like she tried to prevent it and thinks she solved it. She must be naive. Situations arise in which she could have realized that she did do that, but doesn't reflect on her actions. When she's confronted with the boy who is younger than her with the scar, and the 16 year old who dies in the fighting pits, there is no awareness. She's bothered by Drogon killing children but not bothered by her own actions doing a similar thing. It seems like she hasn't come to terms with this stuff. But maybe by that point, the next problem would arise with children "having to be sacrificed" for something that doesn't have the same justification. To me, there is always something slightly "off" and contradictory in Dany's POV chapters.

26 minutes ago, argonak said:

Counter question, responsible to WHOM?  to Dany, she seems to have considered anyone over the age of 12 and male to bear the responsibility for perpetrating the system.

I was hoping for a reply that wasn't just "Dany decided it" because the author appears to be poking holes in her POV in several places.

30 minutes ago, argonak said:

4.  Dany is herself still very young, and she's pretty inconsistent about her decisions.  She pretty obviously doesn't really know what she's doing most of the time.  She didn't recieve training in leadership or ruling, and has largely made a pretty big mess of it.  So she was likely just speaking from her emotions and feelings, without trying to come up with a reasoned response.

Agreed, there are flaws in Dany's logic. But I think they might bother me more than they bother you?

15 minutes ago, argonak said:

Something you should remmeber, is that Dany was herself sold as a child bride, and was previously to that physically abused by her ownly caretaker.  She's had a horrifically unstable family life growing up.  And in the books she's thrust into a position of responsibility and extreme power without any preperation or (for most of the time), good advice.  So of course she makes a mess of things.  Imagine giving any 15 year old girl you know 3 WMDs and making her responsible for the survival of several hundred people, and seeing how that turned out.

Of course, age and upbringing has to be considered in the characters lives, but I feel uncomfortable making allowances for that when someone's decisions are going to define the lives of thousands of people. There's a reason for regency in Kings' Landing and in monarchies in the past. You don't want someone with that amount of authority who isn't ready for it. If Joffrey needed a regent, Dany does too. She wasn't thrust into power unexpectedly, she had a goal and decided to sit her ass on that bench. 

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She is fighting a war. As we have seen elsewhere, minimum age for being considered a combatant is a lot lower in this world than it is in ours.   (It is mentioned by both Robb and Jon.)  I tend to look at her orders as saying to only harm those who are of fighting age and likely to be involved in slavery or are their supporters,and not to kill everybody indiscriminately.

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6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Several questions here - 

First, is everyone who wears a tokar a slave master? Or, is the tokar the garment worn by free people, some of which are slave owners, some are not?

Second, at what age is a person in Slavers Bay responsible for slavery?

Third, would a person wearing a tokar, who is 12 years old, have been killed in the sack? If so, did Dany sanction child murder? (quotes 1, 2, 3)

Fourth, if she thinks 16 is a child, where did she come up with the number 12 before this? (referring to quote 1 and 2)

Finally, would you consider Mirri Maz Duur a slave who rose up against her master? (referring to Quote 3)

The tokar is the garment, uniform if you will, of the slaving class of Slaver's Bay.  It is a sign of membership to the slaving class.  Those who wear the garment are guilty of supporting and participating in the enslavement of people.  It's like wearing the symbol of the SS and participating in what they do.  

At what age is a person responsible for war in Westeros?  Joffrey and Robb were children and they were the main players in the Wotfks.  Don't forget, Joffrey was a child and Robb Stark was planning on attacking him.  Bran was a child who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and Jaime tried to murder him.  Arya is very young and she is without any doubt just as guilty as any adult who commits murder.  Letting 12 be the cutoff is very generous.  I would have brought it down to about 8 years old.  Dany was more merciful than Tywin, Stannis, Jon, Robb, and Roose would have been to an enemy.  

MMD was not a slave who rose up to a master.  She had reason to harm Khal Drogo.  She had no reason to harm Dany and Rhaego.  Burning her was the right punishment.  MMD deserved to get burned at the fire.

6 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Daenerys Targaryen’s war against the slavers is the most justified use of force because it can lead to the freedom of millions, even if some children get sacrificed in the process.  

I agree.  People conveniently  overlook how many southern children died during the Civil War and no one in their right mind would say it was not worth it.  The southern states could have chosen to act morally and end slavery.  They chose to fight and they are responsible for the suffering of their people.  The slave masters have a choice.  Act morally and free their slaves.  They chose to fight instead and they are responsible for the suffering of all the people involved.

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1 hour ago, Sire de Maletroit said:

The tokar is the garment, uniform if you will, of the slaving class of Slaver's Bay.  It is a sign of membership to the slaving class.  Those who wear the garment are guilty of supporting and participating in the enslavement of people.  It's like wearing the symbol of the SS and participating in what they do.  

At what age is a person responsible for war in Westeros?  Joffrey and Robb were children and they were the main players in the Wotfks.  Don't forget, Joffrey was a child and Robb Stark was planning on attacking him.  Bran was a child who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and Jaime tried to murder him.  Arya is very young and she is without any doubt just as guilty as any adult who commits murder.  Letting 12 be the cutoff is very generous.  I would have brought it down to about 8 years old.  Dany was more merciful than Tywin, Stannis, Jon, Robb, and Roose would have been to an enemy.  

MMD was not a slave who rose up to a master.  She had reason to harm Khal Drogo.  She had no reason to harm Dany and Rhaego.  Burning her was the right punishment.  MMD deserved to get burned at the fire.

I agree.  People conveniently  overlook how many southern children died during the Civil War and no one in their right mind would say it was not worth it.  The southern states could have chosen to act morally and end slavery.  They chose to fight and they are responsible for the suffering of their people.  The slave masters have a choice.  Act morally and free their slaves.  They chose to fight instead and they are responsible for the suffering of all the people involved.

I agree with most of this but isn't Dany guilty by association with Drogo? The same as the tokar wearing folk that support the slavery are? Dany is essentially wearing the khalasar's 'SS' badge & participating in what they do right? 

I personally thought 12 was a little young & definitely wouldn't have dropped it to 8 but I do have a hard time with the age differences IRL vs aSoIaF

To the OP: 

1. I agree with the above explanation for the tokar.

2. I don't think an age is explicitly stated as to when someone is responsible for slavery. Clearly Daenerys thinks it's 12. If I were forced to say an age I suppose it would be at whatever age a child is able to make their own decisions rather than following the rule of their parents in text. I think that age is, in most situations, older than 12 though. 

3. Yes those were her explicit orders. A person, wearing a tokar, 12 years of age would've been killed. I think she sanctioned child murder but I don't think she thinks she did... If that makes sense. Whether that is because 12 is a normal number to deem someone responsible for slavery or because she just doesn't make very good decisions I don't know. Either way I believe she wants to avoid killing children. I think she believes she is doing what is right & just. 

4. I'm not sure. That's quite the contradiction. 

5. This is a difficult question. Yes in a way MMD was a slave rising up against her slavers. I, however, disagree with Daenerys's assumption that slaves/former slaves shouldn't be punished for that. I agree they shouldn't be punished for defending themselves or doing what is necessary to free themselves but when it goes above & beyond that I think it should be punished. I don't know if it was necessary for the slaves to kill the father & eldest son but I do know it wasn't necessary for them to rape the mother. That should be punished. It can be argued that MMD needed to kill Drogo to free herself, maybe even Daenerys but definitely not Rhaego. 

 

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6 hours ago, Sire de Maletroit said:

The tokar is the garment, uniform if you will, of the slaving class of Slaver's Bay.  It is a sign of membership to the slaving class.  Those who wear the garment are guilty of supporting and participating in the enslavement of people.  It's like wearing the symbol of the SS and participating in what they do.  

At what age is a person responsible for war in Westeros?  Joffrey and Robb were children and they were the main players in the Wotfks.  Don't forget, Joffrey was a child and Robb Stark was planning on attacking him.  Bran was a child who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and Jaime tried to murder him.  Arya is very young and she is without any doubt just as guilty as any adult who commits murder.  Letting 12 be the cutoff is very generous.  I would have brought it down to about 8 years old.  Dany was more merciful than Tywin, Stannis, Jon, Robb, and Roose would have been to an enemy.  

MMD was not a slave who rose up to a master.  She had reason to harm Khal Drogo.  She had no reason to harm Dany and Rhaego.  Burning her was the right punishment.  MMD deserved to get burned at the fire.

I agree.  People conveniently  overlook how many southern children died during the Civil War and no one in their right mind would say it was not worth it.  The southern states could have chosen to act morally and end slavery.  They chose to fight and they are responsible for the suffering of their people.  The slave masters have a choice.  Act morally and free their slaves.  They chose to fight instead and they are responsible for the suffering of all the people involved.

:agree:

 

Children are always killed during war time.  It doesn't mean wars should never be fought.  It should not be a capricious decision but a serious matter to start war.  But there are causes that justify going to war even if children are killed.  The children in the Bay are guilty of slaving.  A child of 12 should know better.  A child of 12 who lack compassion and take part in slaving is guilty of slavery.  I mean look, shed tears for these little masters if you want, but your tears would be more morally appropriate if shed for the people who were their slaves.  The truth is, Dany has the moral superiority in this fight.  The Ghis had a choice and they chose slavery.  All horrible things that happen are their fault.  None of this would have even been necessary if they had not been slaving in the first place.  So yeah, some of their children will die because they chose slavery.  Catelyn should have kept clear of Tyrion and the thousands of children who died during the Stark's war with the Lannisters would be alive.  Catelyn didn't have any moral justification.  She only wanted justice for one (1) boy against the hundreds of thousands who died, lost family, lost property because of that selfish choice.  Dany had better reasons to fight compared to Catelyn.  

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15 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Quote 1: “Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see.” - Daenerys, ASOS

Quote 2: “In death he looked even younger than he had with blade in hand. “A boy,” said Dany. “He was only a boy.”
“Six-and-ten,” Hizdahr insisted. “A man grown, who freely chose to risk his life for gold and glory. No children die today in Daznak’s, as my gentle queen in her wisdom has decreed.” - Daenerys, ADWD

Quote 3: "A boy came, younger than Dany, slight and scarred, dressed up in a frayed grey tokar trailing silver fringe. His voice broke when he told of how two of his father's household slaves had risen up the night the gate broke. One had slain his father, the other his elder brother. Both had raped his mother before killing her as well. The boy had escaped with no more than the scar upon his face, but one of the murderers was still living in his father's house, and the other had joined the queen's soldiers as one of the Mother's Men. He wanted them both hanged. I am queen over a city built on dust and death. Dany had no choice but to deny him. She had declared a blanket pardon for all crimes committed during the sack. Nor would she punish slaves for rising up against their masters."- Daenerys, ADWD

Several questions here - 

First, is everyone who wears a tokar a slave master? Or, is the tokar the garment worn by free people, some of which are slave owners, some are not?

Second, at what age is a person in Slavers Bay responsible for slavery?

Third, would a person wearing a tokar, who is 12 years old, have been killed in the sack? If so, did Dany sanction child murder? (quotes 1, 2, 3)

Fourth, if she thinks 16 is a child, where did she come up with the number 12 before this? (referring to quote 1 and 2)

Finally, would you consider Mirri Maz Duur a slave who rose up against her master? (referring to Quote 3)

Hope to respond to all but can only do 4 atm as it’s the one that’s possibly easily the most open to misunderstanding and you have done so.

Dany is herself at the age of 15-16 during this time, if I recall.

She thinks him a child not by his age but his looks.

I am 26 years old myself and even though I’ve put on 5 kilograms and life went hard on me these last two years(both made me look older than I did before) people who don’t know my age still constantly age me between 23 and 20.

At 20 years old I was always asked for an ID when I wanted to buy alcoholic drinks. Even when I hadn’t shaven for a week and had a beard, which made me look older a few years, not to mention highschool students are not allowed to go to school with a beard.

At 23, there was a girl who started working at a place I went for coffee everyday, she just started to university so was at most 19. After 2-3 weeks she started to hit on me, but asked to see if I was  18 or older(you are considered an adult at the age of 18), despite sometimes seeing me with a beard. 

Same girl asked whether if a friend of mine, who is 4 years younger than me, is my older brother.

Oh and I forgot, at 23 I was still asked for an Id to buy alcohol. Not always, but still more often than not.

These are all subjective, you may say. But the point is not everyone is the age that you expect them to be.

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Ok, so my understanding is, you agree it was child murder. Was she aware though? It seems like she tried to prevent it and thinks she solved it. She must be naive. Situations arise in which she could have realized that she did do that, but doesn't reflect on her actions. When she's confronted with the boy who is younger than her with the scar, and the 16 year old who dies in the fighting pits, there is no awareness. She's bothered by Drogon killing children but not bothered by her own actions doing a similar thing. It seems like she hasn't come to terms with this stuff. But maybe by that point, the next problem would arise with children "having to be sacrificed" for something that doesn't have the same justification. To me, there is always something slightly "off" and contradictory in Dany's POV chapters.

Well obviously I agree its child murder.  So what?  Yes Dany is naive, she's also barely educated and barely out of childhood.  She's making a mess of ruling a city, although less so than I think some would make.  Are you trying to argue something?  Yes she's hypocrytical and indecisive, that's the point.

19 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I was hoping for a reply that wasn't just "Dany decided it" because the author appears to be poking holes in her POV in several places.

Agreed, there are flaws in Dany's logic. But I think they might bother me more than they bother you?

I'm not excusing her actions.  She's no Solomon the Wise, certainly, but he was probably as fictional as she is.  She's a child thrust into responsibility and power.  She's GRRM's play on the heroic savior trope, if you ask me, and he's trying to be semi-realistic in the actual consequences of this sword-in-the-stone style deciding of the queen.

19 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Of course, age and upbringing has to be considered in the characters lives, but I feel uncomfortable making allowances for that when someone's decisions are going to define the lives of thousands of people. There's a reason for regency in Kings' Landing and in monarchies in the past. You don't want someone with that amount of authority who isn't ready for it. If Joffrey needed a regent, Dany does too. She wasn't thrust into power unexpectedly, she had a goal and decided to sit her ass on that bench. 

Joffrey wasn't nearly as bad a ruler as some make him out to be (that doesn't mean i agree with his actions or choices).  His Regents weren't actually much better.  Cersei is arguably WORSE than Joffrey if you ask me.  

Actually, in my opinion Dany has been absolutely thrust into roles of leadership.  She was made into Khaleesi through no actions of her own.  Suddenly she had responsibilities and duty, and even some power.  Then after her husband died, she was thrust into responsibility for hundreds of desperate people.  And then power in the form of her dragons was thrust into her hands.  She's never had the option of retiring to the house with the red door.

Sure.  But that would mean abandoning people who depend on her.  Abandoning duty and responsibility, whether she wanted it or not.  Now I won't argue that she's greedy for the iron throne.  And I think that greed is going to ultimately be her downfall.

Edited by argonak

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21 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Quote 1: “Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see.” - Daenerys, ASOS

Quote 2: “In death he looked even younger than he had with blade in hand. “A boy,” said Dany. “He was only a boy.”
“Six-and-ten,” Hizdahr insisted. “A man grown, who freely chose to risk his life for gold and glory. No children die today in Daznak’s, as my gentle queen in her wisdom has decreed.” - Daenerys, ADWD

Quote 3: "A boy came, younger than Dany, slight and scarred, dressed up in a frayed grey tokar trailing silver fringe. His voice broke when he told of how two of his father's household slaves had risen up the night the gate broke. One had slain his father, the other his elder brother. Both had raped his mother before killing her as well. The boy had escaped with no more than the scar upon his face, but one of the murderers was still living in his father's house, and the other had joined the queen's soldiers as one of the Mother's Men. He wanted them both hanged. I am queen over a city built on dust and death. Dany had no choice but to deny him. She had declared a blanket pardon for all crimes committed during the sack. Nor would she punish slaves for rising up against their masters."- Daenerys, ADWD

Several questions here - 

First, is everyone who wears a tokar a slave master? Or, is the tokar the garment worn by free people, some of which are slave owners, some are not?

Second, at what age is a person in Slavers Bay responsible for slavery?

Third, would a person wearing a tokar, who is 12 years old, have been killed in the sack? If so, did Dany sanction child murder? (quotes 1, 2, 3)

Fourth, if she thinks 16 is a child, where did she come up with the number 12 before this? (referring to quote 1 and 2)

Finally, would you consider Mirri Maz Duur a slave who rose up against her master? (referring to Quote 3)

Tokars are worn by the wealthy. Can you become wealthy in Slaver's Bay without owning slaves? Possibly, but probably not likely.

At what age are people in our society responsible for poverty? Slavery was simply an accepted aspect of their culture, just like poverty is in ours. Who is responsible? Everyone? No one?

Ned would have called it child murder. He counseled against killing Dany when she was 13-14 saying that the crown should not condone the murder of children. To be logically consistent, Dany should consider 12yo Tokar-wearers as children, and therefore she ordered the murder of children. In Astapor, at least, this was not war, this was trickery followed by brutal, wanton slaughter. People can rationalize it all they want, but it was still the murder of innocent children who were simply living in the culture to which they had been born.

Dany talks about the Dothraki owning slaves, but I don't think this is exactly right. The Dothraki don't buy or sell and they don't really grok the concept of ownership, so they don't really own people either. They conquer people and hand the survivors to slavers as gifts in exchange for gifts from the slavers. When one khal defeats another, he will absorb the other's khalasar into his own where they will work and fight and serve as members of the khal, but they are not really slaves. This is how Irri and Jhiqui came to join Drogo's khalasar, and they are now handmaids to the khaleesi. Everybody works for the khal and the khalasar and they all partake of its food and horses and whatever else they have according to their station. So the "slaves" that erect Dany's tent at the end of the day are bound to the khal and must serve the khalasar, but so are Drogo's bloodriders. And none of them are getting paid.

So in this light, MMD is not a slave exactly, she is a more of a hostage who rose up against her conquerors.

 

 

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1.) Dany specifically thinks that the tokar is the most impractical garment ever, so i'm gonna say no-go for the working man!

2.) When you start dressing yourself and choose not to wear a tokar...

3.) Yes and yes.

4.) Someone pointed out that she just makes up stuff as she goes along.

5.) Drogo absolutely, Rhaego nope.

 Dany...I feel Dany speaking up for MMD and not being a Dothraki set her apart... She's essentially a slave too at this point, so no.

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On 8/21/2019 at 7:38 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

First, is everyone who wears a tokar a slave master? Or, is the tokar the garment worn by free people, some of which are slave owners, some are not?

First Dany chapter in Dance:

"The garment was a clumsy thing, a long loose shapeless sheet that had to be wound around her hips and under an arm and over a shoulder, its dangling fringes carefully layered and displayed. Wound too loose, it was like to fall off; wound too tight, it would tangle, trip, and bind. Even wound properly, the tokar required its wearer to hold it in place with the left hand. Walking in a tokar demanded small, mincing steps and exquisite balance, lest one tread upon those heavy trailing fringes. It was not a garment meant for any man who had to work. The tokar was a master's garment, a sign of wealth and power."

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On 8/21/2019 at 7:38 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Second, at what age is a person in Slavers Bay responsible for slavery?

Third, would a person wearing a tokar, who is 12 years old, have been killed in the sack? If so, did Dany sanction child murder? (quotes 1, 2, 3)

Fourth, if she thinks 16 is a child, where did she come up with the number 12 before this? (referring to quote 1 and 2)

Finally, would you consider Mirri Maz Duur a slave who rose up against her master? (referring to Quote 3)

2. The moment they choose to live by it  (i.e accepting their ill gotten gains while having the knowledge that slaves are property)

3. Hairsplitting here. Some older looking 11 yo! Or younger looking 14 yo! Maybe it evens out?

4. Probably because 16 yo's aren't as malleable as 12 yo's.

5. In a way, yeah, not for freedom though. Also tricking a preggo kid into baby-killing-magic is a pretty uncool way to do it.

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On 8/21/2019 at 6:38 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Quote 1: “Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see.” - Daenerys, ASOS

First, is everyone who wears a tokar a slave master? Or, is the tokar the garment worn by free people, some of which are slave owners, some are not?

Deliberately left vague iirc.  She certainly associates it with the ruling class but whether it is a garment restricted to a certain class or caste within society or something anyone can wear if they can afford it is something GRRM doesn't elaborate on (bear in mind that certain modes of dress or colours, e.g. the imperial purple, were reserved for the elite or certain social ranks in hierarchical societies).  It really depends on how you want to interpret her judgment and that is subjective.

I find it as unlikely that her command resulted in the slaughter of thousands of butchers, bakers and candlestick makers who were going about their day to day business wearing their third best tokars as her command to slay every man holding a whip resulted in the execution of every cart driver, swineherd, self-flagellating penitent or lion tamer within the walls of Astapor.  Nor do I think she particularly had it in for 12 year old tokar-wearing cart drivers.

Her intent is clear: to wreak revenge on the monstrous group of oligarchs who trade in human flesh, castrate and brutalise thousands of young boys and turn them into dull-sensed, emotionless puppy-strangling baby killers.  The instructions are threefold on who to kill, who to spare and who to free.  She has been in Astapor for a while and has a greater feel for the tokar-wearing elements that the reader but she is still an outsider so is she right and how effectively are her instructions carried out by the Unsullied?  It's up to the reader.

On 8/21/2019 at 6:38 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Second, at what age is a person in Slavers Bay responsible for slavery?

I can't think of anything that establishes the age of criminal responsibility in story let alone in Slaver's Bay. Certainly boys in Westeros would squire or take part in combat in their teens and Barristan was only ten when he turned up at his first tourney (admittedly to general mirth).  In medieval England 12 was the age of criminal responsibility at which point the child would be held responsible for their actions as an adult.  I imagine this is what GRRM is basing this on.

On 8/21/2019 at 6:38 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Third, would a person wearing a tokar, who is 12 years old, have been killed in the sack? If so, did Dany sanction child murder? (quotes 1, 2, 3)

Based on the above, yes they would.  In our terms this would be child murder but historically this of course depended on the place and the era.  Clearly Dany is intentionally avoiding the murder of children so I don't think it illuminates her actions or her intent to apply our threshold of age and responsibility.

On 8/21/2019 at 6:38 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Quote 2: “In death he looked even younger than he had with blade in hand. “A boy,” said Dany. “He was only a boy.”
“Six-and-ten,” Hizdahr insisted. “A man grown, who freely chose to risk his life for gold and glory. No children die today in Daznak’s, as my gentle queen in her wisdom has decreed.” - Daenerys, ADWD

Fourth, if she thinks 16 is a child, where did she come up with the number 12 before this? (referring to quote 1 and 2)

She only thinks he looks younger in death than he was (a common observation at least in literature to enforce the waste of a life and prospects of an early death).  She stipulated that the gladiators all be volunteers as a condition of allowing the fighting pits to re-open so it is likely she was expecting physically robust specimens in their prime like Drogo or Strong Belwas rather than youths.  The contrast is to reinforce her dismay at the pointlessness of it and her guilt at allowing the pits to reopen - she feels this on her.

You could however accuse her of a bias colouring how she looks at the "unnecessary" death of the "innocent" gladiator compared with her ordering the "deserving" deaths of the 12+ year old "tainted" Astapori.

But given she is 14 at the point of the quotes and was married off at 13 (and pregnant, miscarried and then widowed at 13) I think we have to accept she has a clear understanding of what the age boundary between childhood and adulthood is and is not making it up on the fly, 12 one day, 16 the next, who knows when tomorrow (even if that boundary makes us uncomfortable and is different to our own).

On 8/21/2019 at 6:38 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Finally, would you consider Mirri Maz Duur a slave who rose up against her master? (referring to Quote 3)

No.  Dany saved Mirri's life.  Mirri may have interpreted that as her becoming the property of Dany but Dany never thought of it as such.  It's perhaps pointless to conjecture how the relationship between Dany and Mirri might have played out if Mirri had realised Dany viewed her as under her protection rather than as her property and that she was free to go her way when they reached some outpost of civilization not likely to be sacked by the Dothraki but she is not actually a slave.

And Mirri wasn't interested in striking at Dany, she saw an opportunity to strike down the Khal who sacked her village and burned her temple and to neutralize his heir to boot.  Dany was just collateral damage in the way.  Do I understand why she did this?  Absolutely but I don't expect Dany to give her a pass for it. 

Remember also that Dany called an amnesty after the sack of Meereen so that those who rose up to help her capture the city would not be punished for their assistance or any of the excesses in the sack (which would of course have made her hated equally by the citizens and ex-slaves).  There's no amnesty for Mirri to look to so her murder of Rhaego is not something Dany is compelled to overlook.

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19 hours ago, Sire de Maletroit said:

The tokar is the garment, uniform if you will, of the slaving class of Slaver's Bay.  It is a sign of membership to the slaving class.  Those who wear the garment are guilty of supporting and participating in the enslavement of people.  It's like wearing the symbol of the SS and participating in what they do.  

Not really though: Dany and the Graces (they probably had slaves but its unknown) wears it. The tokar is a Ghiscari socioeconomic marker, it says plain its not possible for a man that needs to work to wear it.

A tokar not completely neutral in regards to slavery though, its designed to be purposefully impractical so to portrait an ideal of "not needing to anything for yourself ever" and a "because slavery" simmers below the surface.

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21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree with most of this but isn't Dany guilty by association with Drogo? The same as the tokar wearing folk that support the slavery are? Dany is essentially wearing the khalasar's 'SS' badge & participating in what they do right? 

I personally thought 12 was a little young & definitely wouldn't have dropped it to 8 but I do have a hard time with the age differences IRL vs aSoIaF

To the OP: 

1. I agree with the above explanation for the tokar.

2. I don't think an age is explicitly stated as to when someone is responsible for slavery. Clearly Daenerys thinks it's 12. If I were forced to say an age I suppose it would be at whatever age a child is able to make their own decisions rather than following the rule of their parents in text. I think that age is, in most situations, older than 12 though. 

3. Yes those were her explicit orders. A person, wearing a tokar, 12 years of age would've been killed. I think she sanctioned child murder but I don't think she thinks she did... If that makes sense. Whether that is because 12 is a normal number to deem someone responsible for slavery or because she just doesn't make very good decisions I don't know. Either way I believe she wants to avoid killing children. I think she believes she is doing what is right & just. 

4. I'm not sure. That's quite the contradiction. 

5. This is a difficult question. Yes in a way MMD was a slave rising up against her slavers. I, however, disagree with Daenerys's assumption that slaves/former slaves shouldn't be punished for that. I agree they shouldn't be punished for defending themselves or doing what is necessary to free themselves but when it goes above & beyond that I think it should be punished. I don't know if it was necessary for the slaves to kill the father & eldest son but I do know it wasn't necessary for them to rape the mother. That should be punished. It can be argued that MMD needed to kill Drogo to free herself, maybe even Daenerys but definitely not Rhaego. 

 

This is a thoughtful answer, thanks!

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4 hours ago, Sigella said:

3. Hairsplitting here. Some older looking 11 yo! Or younger looking 14 yo! Maybe it evens out?

This is darkly funny. I’m picturing the unsullied asking young Astapori their ages before they killed them. :lol:

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Sire de Maletroit said:

I agree.  People conveniently  overlook how many southern children died during the Civil War and no one in their right mind would say it was not worth it.  The southern states could have chosen to act morally and end slavery.  They chose to fight and they are responsible for the suffering of their people.  The slave masters have a choice.  Act morally and free their slaves.  They chose to fight instead and they are responsible for the suffering of all the people involved. .  People conveniently  overlook how many southern children died during the  suffering of their people.  The slave masters have a choice.  Act morally and free their slaves.  They chose to fight instead and they are responsible for the suffering of all the people involved.

When did Dany present them with that choice in Astapor?

It would be like Grant saying “kill everyone in the south who is white.” Killing carte blache based on social markers can be just as scary as slavery IMO. Then Dany apparently makes the former slave owners work the fields without a wage. It’s just funny how there is like a bajillion contradictions in her chapters.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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On 8/21/2019 at 2:05 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

All wars kill children.  It would be naive to think Robb Stark didn’t know this when he rebelled.  Catelyn knew it and kidnaps Tyrion anyway.  Jon knew attacking the Boltons will kill many women, old people, and innocents who have nothing to do with his feud with Ramsay.  It didn’t stop him from trying until Marsh knifed him.  Robert rebelled rather than give his life even knowing war kill thousands of children.  Stannis attacked KL even though he knew it would kill thousands of children.   Daenerys Targaryen’s war against the slavers is the most justified use of force because it can lead to the freedom of millions, even if some children get sacrificed in the process.  

I find it so silly that people over value children.  The life of a child is no more valuable nor any less than that of an elderly person.  War should be an equal opportunity killer.  The young people who died were casualties and are paying for the millenia of abuse their culture have heaped on the weak.  It's not murder.  It's war.  It's being a hypocrite to feel offended over the deaths of the young Ghiscari slavers while simultaneously turning a blind eye to what Robert's Rebellion did to the people overseas.  And Robert's reason was less valid.  

We should be thinking of the millions of slave children who suffered at the hands of the Ghiscari (and will continue to suffer unless the Ghiscari are stopped) instead of feeling sorry for the Little Masters.  The Little Masters and the countless generations before them have benefited from slavery.  They are now reaping the fruits of their way of life.  Its payment for the luxury they have enjoyed for years at the expense of their slaves.  The amount of lives ended and destroyed by slavery far overshadow the deaths of these Little Masters.  

Stannis was contemplating the burning of his nephew for personal gain.  Theon murdered two innocent farm boys.  It would not have been so bad if it had been Bran and Rickon who are enemies of his family.  But no, he picked two boys who had nothing to do with this fight.  The watch put young boys in harm's way in service to the kingdom.  Knights put their squires in danger all the time.  The expressed concern for the deaths of the Little Masters is just propaganda and hot air to me.

 

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