Dany and child murder

[John Suburbs]

14 hours ago, trazayn said:

I really don't think those are the same thing. Those who are enslaved are not given a choice. They have no civil rights. Those who are in poverty are not enslaved. They have civil rights. 

Poverty is a choice then? Tell that to the children in Guatemala and India who spend their lives in landfills eating garbage and digging for cell phone batteries. They choose to be there?

Martin has pointed out several times in the series that slavery is a choice as well. We all have choices.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

29 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Poverty is a choice then? Tell that to the children in Guatemala and India who spend their lives in landfills eating garbage and digging for cell phone batteries. They choose to be there?

Martin has pointed out several times in the series that slavery is a choice as well. We all have choices.

 

I may be misunderstanding but I don't think that poster is saying poverty is a choice, only that as bad as poverty is, it isn't enslavement; they have civil rights, they have basic human rights. Something slaves are not given.  

So no, the children in Guatemala & Indian probably do not want to be there but they still aren't enslaved. One could argue that they do have choices available to them, possibly ones they are unaware of. 

How has Martin pointed out that slavery is a choice? I feel like saying "They chose to be there?" in regards to the children & then in the next sentence saying slavery is a choice & we all have choices is contradictory. While I disagree that slavery is a choice I do agree we all have choices. A slave may have several choices but none of which are typically whether or not to be a slave. I would imagine the majority of the choices they do have are only what is given to them by their master & would differ according to the person owning them. 

At any rate, while poverty can definitely be devastating & in some cases maybe even as devastating as slavery it is still different. There are rights & rules that protect free people, even people in poverty while there are none for slaves. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

If Dany is giving out #liberation wouldn’t there have been a scene where she gives the Unsullied a choice to follow her or not? As far as I know, she does not.

I don’t know how they can hear “You are the dragon’s now!” and “You are bought and paid for!” and think “freedom.”

 

[Cas Stark]

I thought the poster's point was about the status quo, that people/societies will broadly tolerate whatever injustices exist, because they have never known any other way, and because they are taught, implicitly and explicitly that 'this is how things are' whether that injustice is poverty or slavery or something else.  The vast majority of people will live in the world in which they are born, and go along the path of least resistance, and this would be especially true of elites who benefit from the way things are.  

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If Jon is portrayed as making a huge Bowen-like mistake because he trusts Dany, what will Dany fans who hate Jon do then? Their heads would explode.

The text often undercuts the arguments for kings waging wars for crowns, they get lines like, “This dream of kingship is a madness in our blood.” Kings chosen by acclamation who try to compromise to prevent constant war and who know the limitations of force as a strategy, probably come out on top.

True, but many good men have been bad kings, and some bad men have been good kings, according to Maester Aemon.

[teej6]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So much of this. I really would like to open a thread where people can be civil & factual & discuss the Jon vs Bowen argument but it always turns into a Jon hate thread & blinded by their anger they post things that are either twisted or completely false. 

There’s no point. There are a “few” usual suspects who make every thread into a Jon-hate thread and nothing is going to convince them that Jon’s actions were mostly made in the best interest of humanity (that includes wildlings). Not even Martin’s own words, (quoted above by @kissdbyfire) comparing Jon to a good leader that kids today who aspire to be future leaders should emulate, will change their minds. Why! even if the books were to end with Jon’s decisions justified and him saving humanity, they will continue to sing the same trite song: Jon is bad, poor innocent Janos, poor wronged Thorne, brave loyal Pomegranate, and of course the worst one of all, poor unjustly and unfairly treated Ramsay. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 minutes ago, teej6 said:

There’s no point. There are a “few” usual suspects who make every thread into a Jon-hate thread and nothing is going to convince them that Jon’s actions were mostly made in the best interest of humanity (that includes wildlings). Not even Martin’s own words, (quoted above by @kissdbyfire) comparing Jon to a good leader that kids today who aspire to be future leaders should emulate, will change their minds. Why! even if the books were to end with Jon’s decisions justified and him saving humanity, they will continue to sing the same trite song: Jon is bad, poor innocent Janos, poor wronged Thorne, brave loyal Pomegranate, and of course the worst one of all, poor unjustly and unfairly treated Ramsay. 

haha! I know it. Poor, poor Ramsay, all he wanted was his Reek & his bride, Jon is cruel to not oblige. 

[teej6]

54 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I thought the poster's point was about the status quo, that people/societies will broadly tolerate whatever injustices exist, because they have never known any other way, and because they are taught, implicitly and explicitly that 'this is how things are' whether that injustice is poverty or slavery or something else.  The vast majority of people will live in the world in which they are born, and go along the path of least resistance, and this would be especially true of elites who benefit from the way things are.  

You are right in saying that most people/societies will tolerate whatever injustice exists, especially if they are the beneficiaries of the system. However, when it comes to slavery, I feel that for most people, even those in earlier societies (say like slavery in the South in the US), they will have to dehumanize an entire group of people in order for them to justify slavery and the treatment they mete out to their slaves. There is always some level of self-awareness when inflicting such amounts of wanton cruelty and pain on others. The only way most people can justify or defend such cruelty is by dehumanizing the population on whom such cruelty is perpetrated. In the books, we have the example of the Dothraki looking at the lamb people as lesser beings that are not worthy of receiving the standards and code the Dothraki apply to their own. Defeating and killing an enemy is very different from subjugating and enslaving entire populations. 

[trazayn]

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Poverty is a choice then? Tell that to the children in Guatemala and India who spend their lives in landfills eating garbage and digging for cell phone batteries. They choose to be there?

Martin has pointed out several times in the series that slavery is a choice as well. We all have choices.

 

As @Lyanna<3Rhaegar said I explicitly did not say that poverty was a choice. Only that it is not the same thing as slavery. 

 

[Hodor the Articulate]

8 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If Dany is giving out #liberation wouldn’t there have been a scene where she gives the Unsullied a choice to follow her or not? As far as I know, she does not.

I don’t know how they can hear “You are the dragon’s now!” and “You are bought and paid for!” and think “freedom.”

I actually recently came across a Tumblr post about this very topic.

tl;dr you're taking that quote out of context. Look at what happened after that. Kraznys complains that Drogon won't obey him, to which Dany responds "There is a reason. A dragon is no slave", and then she uses the slave whip against the slaver. This is showing the Unsullied that "bought and paid for" does not mean they are enslaved. And if that's not enough, she actually says the word "freedom" in the scene:

She raised the harpy’s fingers in the air…and then she flung the scourge aside. “Freedom!” she sang out. “Dracarys! Dracarys!”

“Dracarys!” they shouted back, the sweetest word she’d ever heard.

The imagery isn't subtle here. She throws away the symbol of their oppression and calls for them to turn on their masters. In carrying out this act, they are choosing to follow her.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

8 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If Dany is giving out #liberation wouldn’t there have been a scene where she gives the Unsullied a choice to follow her or not? As far as I know, she does not.

I don’t know how they can hear “You are the dragon’s now!” and “You are bought and paid for!” and think “freedom.”

 

I think she does actually. I might be wrong though. I'll look for the quote tomorrow unless someone else knows for sure. 

 

 

ETA: nevermind should have read all the comments before I posted 

ETA again: there is also Grey Worm saying he kept his name because it's the name he had the day Dany freed him or something to that effect. So it seems the unsullied or at the very least Grey Worm believes he has a choice. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I actually recently came across a Tumblr post about this very topic.

tl;dr you're taking that quote out of context. Look at what happened after that. Kraznys complains that Drogon won't obey him, to which Dany responds "There is a reason. A dragon is no slave", and then she uses the slave whip against the slaver. This is showing the Unsullied that "bought and paid for" does not mean they are enslaved. And if that's not enough, she actually says the word "freedom" in the scene:

She raised the harpy’s fingers in the air…and then she flung the scourge aside. “Freedom!” she sang out. “Dracarys! Dracarys!”

“Dracarys!” they shouted back, the sweetest word she’d ever heard.

The imagery isn't subtle here. She throws away the symbol of their oppression and calls for them to turn on their masters. In carrying out this act, they are choosing to follow her.

If they were making a conscious choice to follow her, the author should have had them attack the masters before she issued an order. Instead, they just stand there while the Dothraki kill the masters and wait to be told what to do. Funnily enough there is nothing special about Dany; the Unsullied would have literally killed the Masters for anyone if ordered by their new master. If they were truly free there probably should have been a scene where a portion of the Unsullied leave her and head to Braavos or something.

[Hodor the Articulate]

24 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If they were making a conscious choice to follow her, the author should have had them attack the masters before she issued an order. Instead, they just stand there while the Dothraki kill the masters and wait to be told what to do. Funnily enough there is nothing special about Dany; the Unsullied would have literally killed the Masters for anyone if ordered by their new master. If they were truly free there probably should have been a scene where a portion of the Unsullied leave her and head to Braavos or something.

Well, I guess George didn't think he'd have to spoon feed his audience so he wrote it the way he did. Though I think Dany shouting freedom! and the Unsullied echoing her "Dracarys!" paints a pretty clear picture.

Besides, you can infer their autonomy from how they act in later scenes. When we next meet the Unsullied, we learn that they've shed their slave names. And before you say they only did so under Dany's orders, Grey Worm decides to keep his slave name. This is the reason he gives: “It is a lucky name. The name this one was born to was accursed. That was the name he had when he was taken for a slave. But Grey Worm is the name this one drew the day Daenerys Stormborn set him free.”

[Rose of Red Lake]

4 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Well, I guess George didn't think he'd have to spoon feed his audience so he wrote it the way he did. Though I think Dany shouting freedom! and the Unsullied echoing her "Dracarys!" paints a pretty clear picture.

Besides, you can infer their autonomy from how they act in later scenes. When we next meet the Unsullied, we learn that they've shed their slave names. And before you say they only did so under Dany's orders, Grey Worm decides to keep his slave name. This is the reason he gives: “It is a lucky name. The name this one was born to was accursed. That was the name he had when he was taken for a slave. But Grey Worm is the name this one drew the day Daenerys Stormborn set him free.”

What Greyworm thinks is questionable because two seconds ago he would have killed himself if ordered. Now he understands exactly what autonomy is...suuure. Saying they’re bought, then saying they’re free, then having them continue to do nothing but follow her orders, is the most confusing thing ever. There are enough “off” things in the whole affair, it’s not crazy to wonder if the author is suggesting that Dany is just a new master.

 

[Hodor the Articulate]

17 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

What Greyworm thinks is questionable because two seconds ago he would have killed himself if ordered. Now he understands exactly what autonomy is...suuure. Saying they’re bought, then saying they’re free, then having them continue to do nothing but follow her orders, is the most confusing thing ever. There are enough “off” things in the whole affair, it’s not crazy to wonder if the author is suggesting that Dany is just a new master.

I gave you a scene where Grey Worm literally did not follow Dany's order. You know, like a free person would do.

I can't be bothered going through the freeing Unsullied scene again, so I'll just plop down this link again:

https://racefortheironthrone.tumblr.com/post/187309239541

[Rose of Red Lake]

18 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I gave you a scene where Grey Worm literally did not follow Dany's order. You know, like a free person would do.

I can't be bothered going through the freeing Unsullied scene again, so I'll just plop down this link again:

https://racefortheironthrone.tumblr.com/post/187309239541

Using a name given to him by his master that day is an odd way of illustrating freedom.

If he’s a historian Mr. Race for the Iron Throne should know that Plato’s path to the development of a tyrant involved freeing the slaves and making them into the tyrant’s own personal army. 

 

 

[Hodor the Articulate]

2 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Using a name given to him by his master that day is an odd way of illustrating freedom.

If he’s a historian Mr. Race for the Iron Throne should know that Plato’s path to the devolpment of a tyrant involved freeing the slaves and making them into the tyrant’s own personal army.

“It is a lucky name. The name this one was born to was accursed. That was the name he had when he was taken for a slave. But Grey Worm is the name this one drew the day Daenerys Stormborn set him free.”

You seem to have come around between paragraphs and decided Dany did free the slaves after all. That, or you agree Dany is not, and will not become, a tyrant. Well done on completing your first step towards accepting the error of your ways and embracing our dark mother.

[Rose of Red Lake]

19 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

“It is a lucky name. The name this one was born to was accursed. That was the name he had when he was taken for a slave. But Grey Worm is the name this one drew the day Daenerys Stormborn set him free.”

You seem to have come around between paragraphs and decided Dany did free the slaves after all. That, or you agree Dany is not, and will not become, a tyrant. Well done on completing your first step towards accepting the error of your ways and embracing our dark mother.

No thanks, I don’t join cults  

If this part of the story is about how people are manipulated by tyrants into believing that they’re free (what Plato discussed), then taking Greyworm’s words at face value is flawed. Also, I doubt we’re supposed to read this as Dany the superhero who unproblematically fights evil to the sound of trumpets and freedom. But folks have been reading Dany chapters like that. Like it’s a damn Choose Your Own Adventure novel.

 

[Hodor the Articulate]

4 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

No thanks, I don’t join cults  

If this part of the story is about how people are manipulated by tyrants into believing that they’re free (what Plato discussed), then taking Greyworm’s words at face value is flawed. Also, I doubt we’re supposed to read this as Dany the superhero who unproblematically fights evil to the sound of trumpets and freedom. But folks have been reading Dany chapters like that. Like it’s a damn Choose Your Own Adventure novel. 

Plato thought tyranny would evolve from democracy - clearly not relevant here. He was also a proponent of slavery and owned several slaves himself, so of course he would lace his anti-democracy writing with "they'll take your slaves!" As far as I'm aware, George R.R Martin is not anti-democracy nor pro-slavery. And as he is the one writing this story, not Plato, all of this is completely irrelevant.

I didn't take you seriously when you said you were confused before, but I see it now. Your mind has been poisoned by your cult, to the point where you don't even realise you're in one *smh* Don't worry, our Dark Mother will incinerate their lies from you.

[SeanF]

5 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Using a name given to him by his master that day is an odd way of illustrating freedom.

If he’s a historian Mr. Race for the Iron Throne should know that Plato’s path to the development of a tyrant involved freeing the slaves and making them into the tyrant’s own personal army. 

 

 

Plato thought that freeing slaves was a bad thing.  That is not an opinion that has aged well.