Slayer of Lies triad; another look

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I thought I'd offer a different perspective on the "Slayer of Lies" triad. I think it's worth taking another look at.

The vision;

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast too wing, breathing fire . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . (Dany IV, ACoK 48)

The vision is bookeneded and I think it's related to Azor Ahai/the prince that was promised prophecy.

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

I think we all agree that this blue-eyed king is no other than Stannis Baratheon. Melisandre has been adamant that he is Azor Ahai come again. She gave him a shiny sword, is saying that he was reborn on Dragonstone. We don't know why Mel believes this or what she has seen in her flames that has led her to this conclusion. She does however manipulate things to fit the prophecy, such as holding having that "rebirth ceremony" for Stannis in a place of salt and smoke, while the bleeding star is still hanging in the sky.

But Melisandre is missing one thing to "fulfill" the prophecy as she sees it, and that's waking the stone dragon. And I will return to this.

A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

This is where I peace out of the speculations about Aegon being a fake and a Blackfyre. 

We get an explanation from Dany about the meaning of the cloth/mummer's dragon.

"A dead man in the prow of a ship, a blue rose, a banquet of blood . . . what does any of it mean, Khaleesi? A mummer's dragon, you said. What's a mummer's dragon, pray?"
"A cloth dragon on poles," Dany explained. "Mummers use their in their follies, to give the heroes something to fight." (Dany V, ACoK 63)

So in a nutshell, the mummer's dragon is a puppet. If the mummer wants the puppet to go left, it goes left. And if he wants it to go right, it goes right. The puppet is something a mummer can manipulate to do what it wants it to do. It doesn't make the dragon a fake, and as we find out from Jon Connington, Aegon is not nearly as biddable as Young Griff was. So the puppeteering (pretty sure it's not a word) will be more difficult moving forward, I think.

But let's forget the whole Blackfyre v. Targaryen debate for the purpose of this thread and look at what we find out about Aegon in the HotU. Because we have to take him into consideration for the prophecy because he is part of it.

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"
"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.
"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." (Dany IV, ACoK 48)

And we get more from Maester Aemon;

"No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar . . . I thought . . . the smoke from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he came to believe that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet." (Sam IV, AFfC 35)

If Rhaegar shared the prophecy with Jon Connington and what he believed the same way he did with Maester Aemon, then Connington might put Aegon forward as the prince that was promised because of Rhaegar's own belief. And this is what matters for this triad in the end, I think. Everything seems to indicate that Rhaegar was wrong about that. But if Jon Connington takes Rhaegar's word for it, then the error grows into something else.

If Aegon got his head smashed against the wall, then the promise dies with him. And if he is an impostor, he still doesn't fulfill the requirements of the prophecy. And if he's the real Aegon, he's still a long way from being the fulfillment of the prophecy, which takes us to the final part of the triad;

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

The Azor Ahai prophecy as given to us by Melisandre;

When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. (Jon X, ADwD 49)

And Maester Aemon tells us this;

Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." (Sam IV, AFfC 35)

So waking dragons from stone is on the checklist for fulfilling the prophecy and this part has not been delivered yet by Melisandre. She gave Stannis the salt, the smoke, when the red star was bleeding, but she gave him a glamored sword instead of dragons.

Dany has woken dragons from stone, thereby literally fulfilling the prophecy. Meanwhile, Aegon as Tyrion observed has no dragons, and neither does Stannis for that matter.

For a long time, I wondered what this part of the vision meant, great stone beast taking wing, breathing shadow fire. But then, when I came at it from the Azor Ahai prophecy, it actually bookends the first part of the vision about the blue-eyed king nicely, because it is part of the prophecy, the part about waking a stone dragon.

I went back in the text and checked for stone dragon references. 

The very first time it's brought up in the text is in Dany IV, AGoT 36. Dany refers to her eggs (the stone dragons within) and how she draws strength from them. After that, we get references to stone dragons when we get descriptions of Dragonstone. Otherwise, all the talk of stone dragon comes from the people around Mel and Mel herself. We find out she wants to give Edric Storm over to the flames because of his king's blood to wake the stone dragon.

"This talk of stone dragon . . . madness, I tell you, sheer madness." (Alester Florent, Davos III, ASoS 25)

"Give me the boy, Your Grace. It is the surer way. The better way. Give me the boy and I shall wake the stone dragon." (Davos IV, ASoS 36)

"Your brother's blood," Melisandre said. "A king's blood. Only a king's blood can wake the stone dragon." (Davos IV, ASoS 36)

Ser Axell went to one knee. "On bended knee I beg you, sire. Wake the stone dragon and let the traitors tremble." (Davos V, ASoS 54)

And it goes on.

In her own chapter, Mel has a vision of dragons;

Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky. (Melisandre I, ADwD 31)

So she does see actual dragons in her fires. We don't know if she thinks that this means she will be successful in waking the stone dragon. We don't have her opinion on the matter.

I think the beast in the vision from the HotU will be Melisandre's own creation. A stone dragon (and maybe not quite so literally as that), breathing shadow flame. And if this stone beast is breathing shadow flame, then the odds are, this will not be a real dragon, in the same way Lightbringer is not the real Lightbringer. Melisandre is good at faking.

I think the last part of the triad is about how far Melisandre will go to make the prophecy happen.

"No," the old man said. "It must be you. Tell them. The prophecy . . . my brother's dream . . . Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis . . . Stannis has some dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it . . . their father's mother . . . she used to call me Uncle Maester when she was a little girl. I remembered that, so I allowed myself to hope . . . perhaps I wanted to . . . we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that . . . light without heat . . . an empty glamor . . . the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into the darkness, Sam." (Sam IV, AFfC 35)

So the sword is wrong, the dragon breathing shadow flame is wrong, Stannis is not Azor Ahai and neither is Aegon. 

Sam hesitated a moment, then told his tale again as Marwyn, Alleras and the other novice listened. "Maester Aemon believed that Daenerys Targaryen was the fulfillment of a prophecy . . . her, not Stannis, nor Prince Rhaegar, not the princeling whose head was dashed against the wall." (Sam V, AFfC 45)

Slayer of lies

And it just occurred to me that Sam's nickname is "Slayer," and this is exactly what he doing here, slaying the Stannis lie and the Aegon lie.

I'm editing this on May 25, 2020 to add that those who think that Euron is somewhat tied to the great stone beast could very well be correct. It's the realization that Dany burned MMD who was a priestess in her own right that clinches it for me. 

 

[Narsil4]

Quote

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

Shadow may be another word for ghost or soul. 

So for instance the Last Kiss being used to raise Stoneheart might have some connection to that line.

Which may also have implications for the magic behind how dragons are able to breath fire.

[Lady Dacey]

On 11/17/2019 at 10:41 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Slayer of lies

 And it just occurred to me that Sam's nickname is "Slayer," and this is exactly what he doing here, slaying the Stannis lie and the Aegon lie.

I really like this

[sweetsunray]

11 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

 

I thought I'd offer a different perspective on the "Slayer of Lies" triad. I think it's worth taking another look at.

The vision;

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast too wing, breathing fire . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . (Dany IV, ACoK 48)

The vision is bookeneded and I think it's related to Azor Ahai/the prince that was promised prophecy.

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

I think we all agree that this blue-eyed king is no other than Stannis Baratheon. Melisandre has been adamant that he is Azor Ahai come again. She gave him a shiny sword, is saying that he was reborn on Dragonstone. We don't know why Mel believes this or what she has seen in her flames that has led her to this conclusion. She does however manipulate things to fit the prophecy, such as holding having that "rebirth ceremony" for Stannis in a place of salt and smoke, while the bleeding star is still hanging in the sky.

But Melisandre is missing one thing to "fulfill" the prophecy as she sees it, and that's waking the stone dragon. And I will return to this.

A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

This is where I peace out of the speculations about Aegon being a fake and a Blackfyre. 

We get an explanation from Dany about the meaning of the cloth/mummer's dragon.

"A dead man in the prow of a ship, a blue rose, a banquet of blood . . . what does any of it mean, Khaleesi? A mummer's dragon, you said. What's a mummer's dragon, pray?"
"A cloth dragon on poles," Dany explained. "Mummers use their in their follies, to give the heroes something to fight." (Dany V, ACoK 63)

So in a nutshell, the mummer's dragon is a puppet. If the mummer wants the puppet to go left, it goes left. And if he wants it to go right, it goes right. The puppet is something a mummer can manipulate to do what it wants it to do. It doesn't make the dragon a fake, and as we find out from Jon Connington, Aegon is not nearly as biddable as Young Griff was. So the puppeteering (pretty sure it's not a word) will be more difficult moving forward, I think.

But let's forget the whole Blackfyre v. Targaryen debate for the purpose of this thread and look at what we find out about Aegon in the HotU. Because we have to take him into consideration for the prophecy because he is part of it.

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"
"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.
"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." (Dany IV, ACoK 48)

And we get more from Maester Aemon;

"No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar . . . I thought . . . the smoke from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he came to believe that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet." (Sam IV, AFfC 35)

If Rhaegar shared the prophecy with Jon Connington and what he believed the same way he did with Maester Aemon, then Connington might put Aegon forward as the prince that was promised because of Rhaegar's own belief. And this is what matters for this triad in the end, I think. Everything seems to indicate that Rhaegar was wrong about that. But if Jon Connington takes Rhaegar's word for it, then the error grows into something else.

If Aegon got his head smashed against the wall, then the promise dies with him. And if he is an impostor, he still doesn't fulfill the requirements of the prophecy. And if he's the real Aegon, he's still a long way from being the fulfillment of the prophecy, which takes us to the final part of the triad;

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

The Azor Ahai prophecy as given to us by Melisandre;

When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. (Jon X, ADwD 49)

And Maester Aemon tells us this;

Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." (Sam IV, AFfC 35)

So waking dragons from stone is on the checklist for fulfilling the prophecy and this part has not been delivered yet by Melisandre. She gave Stannis the salt, the smoke, when the red star was bleeding, but she gave him a glamored sword instead of dragons.

Dany has woken dragons from stone, thereby literally fulfilling the prophecy. Meanwhile, Aegon as Tyrion observed has no dragons, and neither does Stannis for that matter.

For a long time, I wondered what this part of the vision mean, great stone beast taking wing, breathing shadow fire. But then, when I came at it from the Azor Ahai prophecy, it actually bookends the first part of the vision about the blue-eyed king nicely, because it is part of the prophecy, the part about waking a stone dragon.

I went back in the text and checked for stone dragon references. 

The very first time it's brought up in the text is in Dany IV, AGoT 36. Dany refers to her eggs (the stone dragons within) and how she draws strength from them. After that, we get references to stone dragons when we get descriptions of Dragonstone. Otherwise, all the talk of stone dragon comes from the people around Mel and Mel herself. We find out she wants to give Edric Storm over to the flames because of his king's blood to wake the stone dragon.

"This talk of stone dragon . . . madness, I tell you, sheer madness." (Alester Florent, Davos III, ASoS 25)

"Give me the boy, Your Grace. It is the surer way. The better way. Give me the boy and I shall wake the stone dragon." (Davos IV, ASoS 36)

"Your brother's blood," Melisandre said. "A king's blood. Only a king's blood can wake the stone dragon." (Davos IV, ASoS 36)

Ser Axell went to one knee. "On bended knee I beg you, sire. Wake the stone dragon and let the traitors tremble." (Davos V, ASoS 54)

And it goes on.

In her own chapter, Mel has a vision of dragons;

Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky. (Melisandre I, ADwD 31)

So she does see actual dragons in her fires. We don't know if she thinks that this means she will be successful in waking the stone dragon. We don't have her opinion on the matter.

I think the beast in the vision from the HotU will be Melisandre's own creation. A stone dragon (and maybe not quite so literally as that), breathing shadow flame. And if this stone beast is breathing shadow flame, then the odds are, this will not be a real dragon, in the same way Lightbringer is not the real Lightbringer. Melisandre is good at faking.

I think the last part of the triad is about how far Melisandre will go to make the prophecy happen.

"No," the old man said. "It must be you. Tell them. The prophecy . . . my brother's dream . . . Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis . . . Stannis has some dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it . . . their father's mother . . . she used to call me Uncle Maester when she was a little girl. I remembered that, so I allowed myself to hope . . . perhaps I wanted to . . . we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that . . . light without heat . . . an empty glamor . . . the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into the darkness, Sam." (Sam IV, AFfC 35)

So the sword is wrong, the dragon breathing shadow flame is wrong, Stannis is not Azor Ahai and neither is Aegon. 

Sam hesitated a moment, then told his tale again as Marwyn, Alleras and the other novice listened. "Maester Aemon believed that Daenerys Targaryen was the fulfillment of a prophecy . . . her, not Stannis, nor Prince Rhaegar, not the princeling whose head was dashed against the wall." (Sam V, AFfC 45)

Slayer of lies

And it just occurred to me that Sam's nickname is "Slayer," and this is exactly what he doing here, slaying the Stannis lie and the Aegon lie.

I find it odd that the third lie would pertain about a character already referenced in the first two. Now I agree with your assessment of the first two, but not your speculation that Mel will also create a false dragon. It's too literal an interpretation in comparison to the first two imo.

Moreover, Aemon warns us about trusting in the translation of the prophecy, while Mel's chapter warns us about interpreting a sequence of visions. Whomever wrote the prophecy in the scrolls at Asshai, they didn't get the whole tale. They got a few glimpses, quite likely metaphorical glimpses similar to what Mel sees, and they know those visions are related but not exactly how. So, we should question the prophecy itself as much as we squint our eyes at Mel's claim that Eastwatch will meet with disaster soon. Mel makes mistakes. So would the seer who was the original source of the Azor Ahai reborn prophecy, and most certainly so would have the transcribes across the aeons copying the prophecy. Maybe one got a coffee stain on his copy while transcribing, the text got smudged, and then inserted what he "thought" was written where the smudge was. 

I agree that the three "lies" pertain about claims of who is PtwP: Stannis is not tPtwP/Azor Ahai reborn, Aegon (fake or true) is not tPtwP/Azor Ahai reborn. It requires a third character being proclaimed tPtwP when they're not.

I personally interprete the "slayer of lies" triad to be about "lies" not "liars", or in other words that what is used as an identifier of tPtwP are the lies. With Stannis, the sword is the lie, because it's a fake sword. With (f)Aegon it is the bleeding star that Rhaegar believed marked Aegon as tPtwP, along with being born at "Dragonstone" (a stone beast with wings). In other words "the bleeding star" is mistaken to be a comet. So, the third vision represents a part of the prophecy/legend that is commonly used by people to try and identify tPtwP, but is not the correct identifier.

So, we have to inspect the prophecy itself to match what is commonly used in-world as an identifier to the third vision of the triad of "lies". The words of the prophecy that match with the vision are "waking dragons from stone". Dany sees a stone beast with wings flying up from a stone tower, breathing black smoke. Mel interpretes the words "dragons from stone" as "waking a stone dragon". Aemon and Benerro (and most readers) interprete "dragons from stone" as Dany's feat with the petrified dragon eggs. Mel fails at accomplishing the first (of course), while Dany obviously succeeded in waking dragons from petrified eggs beneath a bleeding start. On top of that she was born at Dragonstone. All she seems to lack to fit the verbal prophecy is the sword of light. Given that Drogon breathes black and red fire, his flame doesn't seem to make much light. Anyhow, you could speculate that somehow Dany will end up with a sword of light in tWoW or aDoS.

But we should not forget that the HotU visions declare both the red comet and "waking dragons from stone" as false identifiers. Despite several people in-world starting to claim "the dragons prove Dany's tPtwP", the third vision implies "the dragons prove who's not tPtwP". Hence, Dany is not tPtwP.

I like your tie to Samwell as "slayer". Him testing Stannis's sword revealed it's a fake "sword of light". I'm not sure you can take Sam as slaying the lie of Aegon by repeating Aemon's conviction it must be Dany. He might still need to do that in another way. And finally of course, there are still 2 books in which Sam may end up getting convinced that Dany is not tPtwP.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

I find it odd that the third lie would pertain about a character already referenced in the first two. Now I agree with your assessment of the first two, but not your speculation that Mel will also create a false dragon. It's too literal an interpretation in comparison to the first two imo.

I did say "not quite so literally." Whatever Mel does, I think the last verse has to do with her and we know her magic on the Wall is a lot more potent. She says that she is able to do things she couldn't even do when she was in Asshai. She's got Shireen at the Wall, she's got Gerrick Kingsblood (poor sucker) and his children. 

48 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I personally interprete the "slayer of lies" triad to be about "lies" not "liars", or in other words that what is used as an identifier of tPtwP are the lies

I agree about the lies. And slaying the lie doesn't mean slaying the people. But it's interesting that the identifiers of AA/ptwp would be the lies. And it's possible that things were tacked onto the prophecy. It's a 5,000 year old prophecy and we know there are translation errors.

50 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I like your tie to Samwell as "slayer". Him testing Stannis's sword revealed it's a fake "sword of light". I'm not sure you can take Sam as slaying the lie of Aegon by repeating Aemon's conviction it must be Dany. He might still need to do that in another way. And finally of course, there are still 2 books in which Sam may end up getting convinced that Dany is not tPtwP.

I think the interesting part about Sam reporting Aemon's words to Marwyn and Alleras (who is the only non Targaryen character who says "the dragon has three heads" which seems to imply that she knows some things) is that the "slaying" of the Aegon lie happens before his landing. 

Aegon was allegedly dead. But his landing is happening at an excellent time when Westeros is in shambles and in need of a savior. Westeros at large doesn't know about the Others and their looming thread, but Sam does because he's seen it.

The people Rhaegar trusted and was close with may believe that Aegon was the PtwP, so Sarella who so happens to be a Martell becomes doubly important. And if this was a belief that was held by Elia as well, it might be something that she shared with her brothers. Where did Sarella hear "the dragon has three heads?"

So by "slaying" the Aegon lie, Sam is getting ahead of it with a member of his family. 

I do want to say that the dream Maester Aemon's brother had seems to play some kind of a key role in all of this. But as you say, we do have two more books to go and to find out what this dream was all about.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

5 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

I really like this

The neat thing about this is the way it ties back to the attack on the Fist of the First Men that Sam tells us about. Something I noticed in a re-read of Sam is the AA/Lightbringer imagery we get in this passage;

The bear was dead, pale and rotting, its fur and skin all sloughed off and half its right arm burned to the bone, yet it still came on. Only its eyes lived. Bright blue, just as Jon said. They shone like frozen stars. Thoren Smallwood charged, his longsword shining all orange and red from the light of the fire. (Sam I, ASoS 18)

An attack on the Fist of the First Men and a man holding a sword that is shining from the light of the fire, but like Stannis's Lightbringer, it would not radiate heat. Thoren Smallwood gets taken out by a dead bear.

Sam has lived through this and he has seen a Other come at him, so him being Maester Aemon's messenger and helping slay the lies would be a small twist to the vision at the HotU, but also a really neat one. 

And who knows what he will uncover at the Citadel that will be important to this.

[chrisdaw]

It's Stannis, Aegon and Euron.

Aegon is straight-forward.

Euron is the stone beast after he second lifes Drogon. Euron's soul being what it is, the result of it taking prominence in Drogon will turn the dragon into a sphinx, a monstrous mash up that can no longer breathe fire. The shadow flame is important because a dragon not being able to breathe fire makes it a useless weapon against the Others. The great tower is Storm's End, atop it is where Euron will sacrifice himself and become Drogon. As Euron is the last storm. As a an epic storm gathers there every X (77?) amount of years. As Euron must throw himself from a tower (sacrifice his human life) to see if he can fly (become a dragon in his second life). The stone is because Euron is going to have greyscale (grey lips smiling sadly in a dead face). Dany slaying him is her second lifing Drogon and casting Euron's soul out, this is foreshadowed often in the series, every time fire (usually dragon's) melts stone - Harren's demise at Harrenhal, Dany's blood on stone in her Wake the Dragon Dream and many many others.

Stannis will become an ice dragon in his second life. The blue eyes are important because the ice dragon has crystal blue eyes. The lack of a shadow is important because an ice dragon has translucent wings and so doesn't cast a shadow. Well it does, but not a proper one. Mel will facilitate in his creation, and will come as a result of Stannis sacrificing Shireen, thus proving he has the heart of winter. The brightest fires create the darkest shadows, the fire of Stannis's soul burns low, so he casts weak shadows - the shadows beneath translucent wings. Note that the shadow beneath wings is in the series constantly used symbolically to represent influence, and all the shadow references in Stannis's story. The glowing like sunset is a reference to the long night that will come with the Ice Dragon. Very possibly the wings will disperse light so that the Others can travel beneath them, and thus the ice dragon's creation will kick off their invasion. The ice crystal eyes (or maybe just 1) will be the manifestation of Stannis's soul.

These are Dany's big three enemies and are foreshadowed since AGOT.

Quote

Monsters stood in the grass beside the road; black iron dragons with jewels for eyes, roaring griffins, manticores with their barbed tails poised to strike, and other beasts she could not name.

black iron dragons with jewels for eyes = Stannis the ice dragon. Jewels for eyes like the crystal ice dragon eyes. Iron as Stannis is - 

Quote

Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends.

Maybe the ice dragon will have an iron type skeleton.

Manticore = sphinx = Euron. Roaring Griffin is JonCon and counts for Aegon.

[Narsil4]

5 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Maybe the ice dragon will have an iron type skeleton.

Dragons normally seem to have iron skeletons. 

Quote

Dragonbone is black because of its high iron content, the book told him.

So a dragon of the opposite type might have a skeleton closer to the milkglass-like bones of the others.

Black/Cold Iron also seems to have an Ice association. So in some sense dragons may be made of different amounts of both Fire and Ice magic. 

 

[Megorova]

The first lie is that Stannis, who is the current official Prince of Dragonstone, is Azor Ahai. The second is that fAegon is Rhaegar's son. If he was, then as Rhaegar's oldest son, he would have been the Prince of Dragonstone. The third lie is that Jon Snow is the bastard of Ned Stark. Jon is Rhaegar's son, which means that he is the real Prince of Dragonstone. In that vision he is depicted as the stone beast with wings. The smoking tower is probably the Tower of Joy, and breathing shadow flames means living in lies. At the Tower of Joy Ned Stark created a "smoke screen" with which he concealed the truth about Jon's birth and his real identity.  

There's a pattern in those visions - first out of three is depicting recent past (Viserys' death, Dany's wedding to Khal Drogo, Stannis and fake Lightbringer at Dragonstone), second is depicting future from various times (fAegon at Westeros, grown up Rhaego in a distant future, the corpse in a ship is the only one that I havent' figured out yet, though out of those three visions depicting the future, this one will happen first out of three), and third are depicting events that happened near times of Robert's Rebellion - Rhaegar's death, Jon's birth, and the one with the flower is also either about Jon or about Lyanna.

[Narsil4]

7 hours ago, Megorova said:

There's a pattern in those visions

It seems as if they might just be restating the Fires/Mounts/Treasons part to try and help Dany understand.

Quote

. . . help her . . . the whispers mocked. . . . show her . . .

So it may fit into a similar format. 

Head 1: Drogo/Drogon. Life/Bed/Blood

Quote

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. 

Head 2: Viserys/Viserion. Death/Dread/Gold

Quote

Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. 

Head 3: Rhaego/Rhaegal. Love/Love/Love

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A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him.

Dragon's Tail/Red Comet: Mirri Maz Duur. Hate/Hate/Hate?

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Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name.

[Greywater-Watch]

On ‎11‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 2:41 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

I think we all agree that this blue-eyed king is no other than Stannis Baratheon.

Why would Stannis not cast a shadow? The only creatures in ASOIAF  that I know of. which do not cast a shadow are the Others, and they are blue eyed too.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

4 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Why would Stannis not cast a shadow? The only creatures in ASOIAF  that I know of. which do not cast a shadow are the Others, and they are blue eyed too.

Where does it say that the Others cast no shadows? I looked quickly through the text and cannot find that reference. And the swords they carry are not red. Will says there's a faint blue shimmer to the sword and Sam says the blade is ice blue. Why would a Other wield a red sword when the color seems to be a reference to Lightbringer (the red sword of heroes as Mel called it) and fire?

As far as Stannis goes, the verses seem to be metaphors and he's the first thing that comes to mind when reading that verse. He casts shadows, that's true, but Mel has also extracted two shadows from him. And now she's worried that if she was to make another shadow, it might outright kill him. Does all of this mean that Stannis's shadow isn't nearly as "great" as it was before Mel got a hold of him? 

 

 

[Greywater-Watch]

28 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Where does it say that the Others cast no shadows? I looked quickly through the text and cannot find that reference.

Well, they emerge at night only, thus they do not cast a shadow. Besides, I believe that their icy transparent appearance makes that they do not cast a shadow. I will have to re-read the prologue again, Maybe something is mentioned there.

[Lady Rhodes]

A few things:

1) I, too, have never seen the connection to Stannis being the blue eyed king who casts no shadow. I can accept that these are metaphors but I have trouble aligning him with this. I have been inclined to believe it is an Other as well.

2) I agree there is a pattern to these prophecies, but I have taken a different tactic, though I admit it hasn’t been fruitful. Maybe someone here can help me out: they seem to follow a pattern that varies between things that have happened, what will happen, and what SHOULD have happened (this last one being key). Rhaego being the stallion that mounts the world would fall in here.  I have tried to suss out a pattern but haven’t yet.

3) I love the connection with Sam and Slayer.

[divica]

19 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Why would Stannis not cast a shadow? The only creatures in ASOIAF  that I know of. which do not cast a shadow are the Others, and they are blue eyed too.

 

1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

1) I, too, have never seen the connection to Stannis being the blue eyed king who casts no shadow. I can accept that these are metaphors but I have trouble aligning him with this. I have been inclined to believe it is an Other as well.

I would say that the idea is that mel siphon's stannis shadow to do her bidding. After all the shadow that killed renly had stannis face so it makes sense for there to be a conection...

I would even say that even if stannis has a shadow some intrinsic quality that all shadows have was lost when mel created the shadow baby. Therefore from a magical pov he doesnt have a shadow...

[divica]

On 11/18/2019 at 1:41 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I thought I'd offer a different perspective on the "Slayer of Lies" triad. I think it's worth taking another look at.

The vision;

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast too wing, breathing fire . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . (Dany IV, ACoK 48)

The vision is bookeneded and I think it's related to Azor Ahai/the prince that was promised prophecy.

Why not have the entire vision being about stannis?

I never thought about this, but it actually makes sense. The vision can simply be about stannis convincing people that he is the ptwp using a fake sword, a mummer's dragon (how mel is the mummer manipulating everything and aemon thinks that stannis can be the ptwp because of his dragon blood) and a fake dragon (some stone creature she awakes using shadow magic).

[Alexis-something-Rose]

9 hours ago, divica said:

Why not have the entire vision being about stannis?

I never thought about this, but it actually makes sense. The vision can simply be about stannis convincing people that he is the ptwp using a fake sword, a mummer's dragon (how mel is the mummer manipulating everything and aemon thinks that stannis can be the ptwp because of his dragon blood) and a fake dragon (some stone creature she awakes using shadow magic).

It's entirely possible that it is about Stannis, or rather him being a false Azor Ahai.

The red sword, Lightbringer, is a fake. Maester Aemon tells us it's glamored. 

Maester Aemon reminds us that Stannis has Targaryen blood (and his blood would be even more recent than any Blackfyre at that). But Barristan adds more to that and becomes even more specific about the Targaryen blood. The prince that was promised is supposed be born of Rhaella and Aerys's line. So Stannis is from the wrong Targaryen branch. 

And finally, the stone dragon seems to be a prerequisite for the fulfillment of prophecy and Stannis has woken nothing.

[Lost Melnibonean]

The blue-eyed king is Stannis. The cloth dragon, or mummer's dragon, as Daenerys later describes the vision, is Aegon, a descendant of Daemon Blackfyre. The great stone beast is Euron. This triplet of visions is followed by "slayer of lies." And these three visions are of claimants to the Iron Throne. 

[sweetsunray]

On 11/19/2019 at 3:38 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

She says that she is able to do things she couldn't even do when she was in Asshai. She's got Shireen at the Wall, she's got Gerrick Kingsblood (poor sucker) and his children. 

I doubt magic can be used to make some fake beast, even with the Wall's magic, as well as Mel having that ability. That she's going to use the Wall's magic I do not doubt, but it won't do what she aims to do, and it will imo weaken the Wall. 

On 11/19/2019 at 3:38 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think the interesting part about Sam reporting Aemon's words to Marwyn and Alleras (who is the only non Targaryen character who says "the dragon has three heads" which seems to imply that she knows some things) is that the "slaying" of the Aegon lie happens before his landing. 

Well, he was allegedly dead, so for many the "lie" was slain, the day the Mountain bashed his head in. And since Sam only repeats Aemon's conviction, that would make Aemon  the slayer.

I like your argument on the connection to Alleras as one of the Martells (though Sandsnake). Elia seemed especially close to Oberyn. And George is putting Alleras and Sam close together at this time for a reason, for sure, as well as keeping Alleras out of the plans of Arianne, the other Sand Snakes and Doran. And we agree (like most people) that the first lie implicates Stannis and the second (f)Aegon.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

7 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The great stone beast is Euron.

I'm not really sure how you reached this conclusion. Euron is a kraken. The one vision we have that's Euron-related was Moqorro calling him "a tall twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms, sailing on a sea of blood."

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I doubt magic can be used to make some fake beast, even with the Wall's magic, as well as Mel having that ability. That she's going to use the Wall's magic I do not doubt, but it won't do what she aims to do, and it will imo weaken the Wall. 

I am not disagreeing with this. I did say not quite so literally and I'm thinking more along the lines of glamors and illusions and the power of suggestion. Mel glamored Stannis's sword to look like Lightbringer and she glamored Mance Rayder to look like Rattleshirt.