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Mrstrategy

Did Ned Stark take lysa warning seriously

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Did Ned Stark take lysa Arryn warning seriously because it seem he did not take it seriously since he only took a small number of guards,took his children and did not take steps such as appointing his own man to gold cloaks while aware that the lannisters were supposedly responsible for jon arryn death?

Edited by Mrstrategy

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He did, but he wasn't going to the Rock he was going to KL, the capital of his BFFs kingdom. Then his naive arse started trusting people and got in way over his head because he did not even know there was a Game of Thrones, let alone how to play it.

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17 hours ago, Mrstrategy said:

Did Ned Stark take lysa Arryn warning seriously because it seem he did not take it seriously since he only took a small number of guards,took his children and did not take steps such as appointing his own man to gold cloaks while aware that the lannisters were supposedly responsible for jon arryn death?

He had something like 40-50 guards; hardly a skeleton crew.   Considering that he left Winterfell understaffed, even before Robb took what was left, I don't think he could have taken more.

The children were already announced as going.  He could hardly keep them home without raising suspicion.

He had no reason to doubt Slynt's loyalty, and Robert was supposedly in charge of Kings Landing in any event.

Considering how much investigating he did, I would say that he took it quite seriously.  He misjudged the level of venality he would encounter, but otherwise took things quite seriously.

Edited by Nevets

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On 12/28/2019 at 6:23 PM, Nevets said:

He misjudged the level of venality he would encounter, but otherwise took things quite seriously.

This really was the key to Ned’s down fall. 

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On 12/28/2019 at 9:23 PM, Nevets said:

He had no reason to doubt Slynt's loyalty, and Robert was supposedly in charge of Kings Landing in any event.

 

But he wasted a good oportunity there. Slynt like Renly pointed out in the small council was responsable for the security on KL, and he was failing in his job, if Ned had been more cunning and smarter he would take this chance and replace him with the suport of the small council and putted someone that he trusted instead without rising too much flags.

Giving his own men to Slynt and later to Beric was also his fault, he could have sent gold cloaks and kept his force intact. At the very least this would help to escort the girls out of KL.

On 12/28/2019 at 9:23 PM, Nevets said:

The children were already announced as going.  He could hardly keep them home without raising suspicion.

 

If he was smart, he would use the Lady incident to send Arya back to Winterfell instead of dragging his daughter to a pit full of vipers.

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On 12/29/2019 at 11:31 PM, Arthur Peres said:

If he was smart, he would use the Lady incident to send Arya back to Winterfell instead of dragging his daughter to a pit full of vipers.

I never understood why Arya was going in the first place.  It made sense for Sansa and Bran before he was hurt, But you would have thought Cat would have known Arya was too wild to be in the capital.

 

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I feel that at one point the Starks fail to note an important information concerning Lysa Arryn's veracity.

I think it was Catelyn while in the Eyrie where the Master tells her that Robin Arryn was to be fostered by Stannis, thus not by Tywin Lannister (which I believe was what Lysa told Catelyn before to justify her fleeing to the Vale). Catelyn, if I remember correctly, shortly connects to the discrepancy of this information, but then doesn't follow up. I admit, it would have had to be a clever guy like Varys or Littlefinger or Tyrion to note the importance of this information.

From https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robert_Arryn:

Before his ascension, Lord Tywin Lannister offered to take young Robert as his ward, something he had never offered to anyone else. Lord Eddard Stark suspects Tywin made this offer in order to seize Robert Arryn as a hostage. King Robert planned to accept the offer but Lady Lysa Arryn fled from King's Landing to the Vale with her son to avoid this.

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22 hours ago, Chris Mormont said:

I never understood why Arya was going in the first place.  It made sense for Sansa and Bran before he was hurt, But you would have thought Cat would have known Arya was too wild to be in the capital.

 

This is specifically addressed in the text:

“Sansa must wed Joffrey, that is clear now, we must give them no grounds to suspect our devotion. And it is past time that Arya learned the ways of a southron court. In a few years she will be of an age to marry too.”

Sansa would shine in the south, Catelyn thought to herself, and the gods knew that Arya needed refinement. Reluctantly, she let go of them in her heart.

 

9 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

I feel that at one point the Starks fail to note an important information concerning Lysa Arryn's veracity.

I think it was Catelyn while in the Eyrie where the Master tells her that Robin Arryn was to be fostered by Stannis, thus not by Tywin Lannister (which I believe was what Lysa told Catelyn before to justify her fleeing to the Vale). Catelyn, if I remember correctly, shortly connects to the discrepancy of this information, but then doesn't follow up. I admit, it would have had to be a clever guy like Varys or Littlefinger or Tyrion to note the importance of this information.

I see no obvious discrepancy here.

While Jon Arryn was alive, he agreed with his friend Stannis (who was collaborating with in investigating the king's bastards) that he would foster little Robert in Dragonstone. After his death, the king asks Tywin to accept him as ward.

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13 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

This is specifically addressed in the text:

“Sansa must wed Joffrey, that is clear now, we must give them no grounds to suspect our devotion. And it is past time that Arya learned the ways of a southron court. In a few years she will be of an age to marry too.”

Sansa would shine in the south, Catelyn thought to herself, and the gods knew that Arya needed refinement. Reluctantly, she let go of them in her heart.

 

I see no obvious discrepancy here.

While Jon Arryn was alive, he agreed with his friend Stannis (who was collaborating with in investigating the king's bastards) that he would foster little Robert in Dragonstone. After his death, the king asks Tywin to accept him as ward.

Two remarks:

1) It is said that Tywin offered to take Robin as a ward, not that King Robert asked Tywin.

2) It is possible that - as you suggest - after Jon Arryn's death King Robert had a change of mind and replaced Stannis by Tywin for fostering Robin. I think, that even after Jon Arryn's death, Robin was still to be fostered by Stannis, only that Lysa:

a) used the scenario with Tywin as a better excuse to flee to the Vale

b) actually believed that Robin was to be fostered by Tywin (which would be strange, as the Maester of the Eyrie had a different information.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

1) It is said that Tywin offered to take Robin as a ward, not that King Robert asked Tywin.

I think the wiki is wrong. :P

The passage from the 4th Eddard chapter that the wiki references is as follows:

Robert’s mouth gave a bitter twist. “Not well, in truth,” he admitted. “I think losing Jon has driven the woman mad, Ned. She has taken the boy back to the Eyrie. Against my wishes. I had hoped to foster him with Tywin Lannister at Casterly Rock. Jon had no brothers, no other sons. Was I supposed to leave him to be raised by women?”
Ned would sooner entrust a child to a pit viper than to Lord Tywin, but he left his doubts unspoken. Some old wounds never truly heal, and bleed again at the slightest word. “The wife has lost the husband,” he said carefully. “Perhaps-the mother feared to lose the son. The boy is very young.”
“Six, and sickly, and Lord of the Eyrie, gods have mercy,” the king swore. “Lord Tywin had never taken a ward before. Lysa ought to have been honored. The Lannisters are a great and noble House. She refused to even hear of it. Then she left in the dead of night, without so much as a by-your-leave. Cersei was furious.” He sighed deeply. “The boy is my namesake, did you know that? Robert Arryn. I am sworn to protect him. How can I do that if his mother steals him away?”

If I'm not wrong, it's never said that Tywin made the offer. And my reading of the text is that the initiative had been Robert's. ("I had hoped", "Was I supposed",...)

4 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

2) It is possible that - as you suggest - after Jon Arryn's death King Robert had a change of mind and replaced Stannis by Tywin for fostering Robin. I think, that even after Jon Arryn's death, Robin was still to be fostered by Stannis, only that Lysa:

a) used the scenario with Tywin as a better excuse to flee to the Vale

b) actually believed that Robin was to be fostered by Tywin (which would be strange, as the Maester of the Eyrie had a different information.

I don't think King Robert knew of Jon's plans to send Sweetrobin to Dragonstone.

My guess is that Jon Arryn made those plans in secrecy, and the main purpose was to send his heir away from the capital before exposing the incest. Shortly before he planned to leave, he had to tell Lysa (but obviously he did not trust her with the motives behind it). Ironically, it was this precaution and not the incest investigations what led to Jon's murder.

I also think that Lysa's original plan would have been to stay at court, where she could be with his beloved Littlefinger. But when Robert came with the idea that Sweetrobin needed some father figure, Lysa realized that she had to return the Vale if she wanted to avoid losing his son anyway.

Edited by The hairy bear

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1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

I think the wiki is wrong. :P

The passage from the 4th Eddard chapter that the wiki references is as follows:

Robert’s mouth gave a bitter twist. “Not well, in truth,” he admitted. “I think losing Jon has driven the woman mad, Ned. She has taken the boy back to the Eyrie. Against my wishes. I had hoped to foster him with Tywin Lannister at Casterly Rock. Jon had no brothers, no other sons. Was I supposed to leave him to be raised by women?”
Ned would sooner entrust a child to a pit viper than to Lord Tywin, but he left his doubts unspoken. Some old wounds never truly heal, and bleed again at the slightest word. “The wife has lost the husband,” he said carefully. “Perhaps-the mother feared to lose the son. The boy is very young.”
“Six, and sickly, and Lord of the Eyrie, gods have mercy,” the king swore. “Lord Tywin had never taken a ward before. Lysa ought to have been honored. The Lannisters are a great and noble House. She refused to even hear of it. Then she left in the dead of night, without so much as a by-your-leave. Cersei was furious.” He sighed deeply. “The boy is my namesake, did you know that? Robert Arryn. I am sworn to protect him. How can I do that if his mother steals him away?”

If I'm not wrong, it's never said that Tywin made the offer. And my reading of the text is that the initiative had been Robert's. ("I had hoped", "Was I supposed",...)

I don't think King Robert knew of Jon's plans to send Sweetrobin to Dragonstone.

My guess is that Jon Arryn made those plans in secrecy, and the main purpose was to send his heir away from the capital before exposing the incest. Shortly before he planned to leave, he had to tell Lysa (but obviously he did not trust her with the motives behind it). Ironically, it was this precaution and not the incest investigations what led to Jon's murder.

I also think that Lysa's original plan would have been to stay at court, where she could be with his beloved Littlefinger. But when Robert came with the idea that Sweetrobin needed some father figure, Lysa realized that she had to return the Vale if she wanted to avoid losing his son anyway.

Ok, thank you for your clarification with the dialogue between Ned and Robert, which I had forgotten. And your further reasoning just convinced me.

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On 12/28/2019 at 1:37 AM, Mrstrategy said:

Did Ned Stark take lysa Arryn warning seriously because it seem he did not take it seriously since he only took a small number of guards,took his children and did not take steps such as appointing his own man to gold cloaks while aware that the lannisters were supposedly responsible for jon arryn death?

Ned Stark had naive confidence in Robert Baratheon.  He never really saw the real Robert.  Ned assumed the Small Council was loyal and the government was in order.  

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