Why is Randyl Tarly considered such a great general?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

I mean the guy's only impressive act was Ashford. Compare this to Robb, Stannis, Robert or Tywin, who each have several very impressive victories under their belt. So why does everybody say that Randyl Tarly is such a great general?

[Tyrion1991]

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I mean the guy's only impressive act was Ashford. Compare this to Robb, Stannis, Robert or Tywin, who each have several very impressive victories under their belt. So why does everybody say that Randyl Tarly is such a great general?

 

That has to do with Roberts reputation for being the Warrior King who beat Rhaegar and deposed the Targaryens; before beating the Greyjoy’s. He’s a big deal and has an equally big reputation. 

So anyone who matched Robert is going to capture the imagination of people.

Robb Stark never fought a battle against one of the great generals with a record behind him. He relied on ambushing smaller units led by incompetent generals. He also lost the war. Like, horrendously so. Had he defeated Tywins larger army in a pitched battle then his reputation would be deserved.

Stannis entire backstory centres around him not getting the credit he deserves. The nobility despise him because apparently he’s the only ugly Lord in Westeros and object to his Puritanism. I could go off on a tangent here but I felt it was slightly contrived given that Stannis does compromise his values when it suits him. Lord Leyton Hightower could have married Lynesse to Stannis rather than Jorah. 

I never got where Tywins reputation came from. I think it is really inflated. It’s more the apparatus that he built to support such a huge army that goes on to beat the Reynes and his long tenure as hand. He’s seen as a capable organiser and administrator rather than a great battle commander. Possibly due to his success in war people are conflating the two although I think George is falling back on this himself. 

I am not sure everybody says it. This is probably just scewed by all those Brianne and Sam chapters so it feels more prominent than it really is. They’re setting up that he is just a martial lord whose allegiance could be important when Napoleon lands and Marshall Ney joins him in the march on....sorry, sorry, wrong story.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

That has to do with Roberts reputation for being the Warrior King who beat Rhaegar and deposed the Targaryens; before beating the Greyjoy’s. He’s a big deal and has an equally big reputation. 

So anyone who matched Robert is going to capture the imagination of people.

Robb Stark never fought a battle against one of the great generals with a record behind him. He relied on ambushing smaller units led by incompetent generals. He also lost the war. Like, horrendously so. Had he defeated Tywins larger army in a pitched battle then his reputation would be deserved.

This is probably the most important thing here. It's probably similar to how Scipio became a famous general simply by defeating Hannibal at Zama, even though his only tactically brilliant moment there was defeating the elephants, after that he just funneled men into the slaughter and almost lost until the numidian cavalry arrived and smashed into Hannibal's back, but I digress. Though for Robb it's fair to point out that his war of maneuver was simply brilliant (very Napoleon like) and both at Oxcross and the camps he was badly outnumbered. However strategically Robb was probably more incompetent then Mace Tyrell all in all.

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I never got where Tywins reputation came from. I think it is really inflated. It’s more the apparatus that he built to support such a huge army that goes on to beat the Reynes and his long tenure as hand. He’s seen as a capable organiser and administrator rather than a great battle commander. Possibly due to his success in war people are conflating the two although I think George is falling back on this himself. 

In contrast to Robb, Tywin's genius is in the strategy. Tactically he is only a decent general (like he doesn't do any major mistakes, but he doesn't have any moments of brilliance either), but strategically he fought more then admirably, never losing a war.

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I am not sure everybody says it. This is probably just scewed by all those Brianne and Sam chapters so it feels more prominent than it really is.

I was thinking both in story, bu especially among fans. I have read way too many people on this forum saying how Randyl is one of the greatest generals in Westeros.

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

They’re setting up that he is just a martial lord whose allegiance could be important when Napoleon lands and Marshall Ney joins him in the march on....sorry, sorry, wrong story.

More like Henry V's landing in France, not Napoleon's to be honest. Randyl is probably going to be one of the 2 main defectors to FAegon in the Reach, alongside Rowan, both incredibly powerful lords, with Randyl also commanding 20k men who seem to be personally loyal to him. The only thing that's uncertain is whether he's going to defect after Mace is defeated at the battle of Agincourt in the Stormlands.

[Tyrion1991]

2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

This is probably the most important thing here. It's probably similar to how Scipio became a famous general simply by defeating Hannibal at Zama, even though his only tactically brilliant moment there was defeating the elephants, after that he just funneled men into the slaughter and almost lost until the numidian cavalry arrived and smashed into Hannibal's back, but I digress. Though for Robb it's fair to point out that his war of maneuver was simply brilliant (very Napoleon like) and both at Oxcross and the camps he was badly outnumbered. However strategically Robb was probably more incompetent then Mace Tyrell all in all.

In contrast to Robb, Tywin's genius is in the strategy. Tactically he is only a decent general (like he doesn't do any major mistakes, but he doesn't have any moments of brilliance either), but strategically he fought more then admirably, never losing a war.

I was thinking both in story, bu especially among fans. I have read way too many people on this forum saying how Randyl is one of the greatest generals in Westeros.

More like Henry V's landing in France, not Napoleon's to be honest. Randyl is probably going to be one of the 2 main defectors to FAegon in the Reach, alongside Rowan, both incredibly powerful lords, with Randyl also commanding 20k men who seem to be personally loyal to him. The only thing that's uncertain is whether he's going to defect after Mace is defeated at the battle of Agincourt in the Stormlands.

 

Oh yeah it’s so going to be Agincourt. I am sure the mud is commented on and he has some longbows. I am expecting some Almanac and burgundian infighting in the capital as well. 

Also he could end up marrying Myrcella if it was to be a complete one for one. But more likely Arriane and I want to George to have more normal relationships in the series. He made the characters too young.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

24 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I am sure the mud is commented on and he has some longbows

The longbows are commented on way too much. We are told very specifically both what kind of archers the GC has as well as hte fact that Jon Conn evolved from despising them to seeing them as a very valuable asset.

25 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I am expecting some Almanac and burgundian infighting in the capital as well.

Never considered that one before, but now you mention it it's so obvious. Thanks! Though to be fair there are also the sparrows who are their own thing, though will probably support FAegon in exchange for a couple of rights and privileges.

26 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

But more likely Arriane and I want to George to have more normal relationships in the series. He made the characters too young.

This by far the more likely one, though it's hard to say if Arianne will for for FAegon or just seduce him (given her personality both could work).

[Trigger Warning]

I think it's safe to assume there's probably minor conflicts and rebellions, border wars etc that happen that haven't been mentioned in the books. If only the major conflicts are present then no one should enjoy a particularly prestigious military reputation. People on here often speak of Stannis military genius and his prowess as a commander yet as far as we know he's only survived a siege, won one major naval engagement, lost one major battle and then won the battle at the wall with some minor campaigning between. If someone has an in world reputation I think it's best to assume they've earned that outside of the specific major events that come up in the narrative. 

[Buried Treasure]

Who is considering him a great general? I can't recall anybody in the books giving him that label. 

A competent commander and safe pair of hands sure, but not a great.

[Lord Varys]

Tarly is called the finest soldier in the Realm.

I once laid out that Westerosi military men - who rarely, if at all, fight in proper wars or battles, considering that the Realm is mostly at peace - should not really be great soldiers, fighters, commanders, generals, etc. (especially not compared to really professional soldiers like the free companies who fight continuous wars and campaigns in the Disputed Lands) - since they are at best half-time soldiers who rarely fight in pitched battles or proper campaigns.

Dorne aside, Westeros did never fight wars against outside enemies, the only thing that very rarely happened where civil wars. Hunting rebels and outlaws shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Sure, Tarly won a pretty impressive victory at Ashford, but with him not riding in any other campaigns nor commanding any other battles up until Duskendale as far as we know his reputation seems to be based on pretty much nothing.

[Angel Eyes]

I've never really been convinced of Brandon Stark's skill with a sword. As far as I'm aware his combat experience has been limited to tournaments and making mincemeat of Petyr Baelish.

Same with Rhaegar Targaryen. He doesn't seem to have fought in any major campaigns outside of Robert's Rebellion and made a strategic gaffe that helped to cost him the war. He had the high ground, the Rebels were on the march, he could have just waited for them to try to cross.

[Arthur Peres]

5 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

This is probably the most important thing here. It's probably similar to how Scipio became a famous general simply by defeating Hannibal at Zama, even though his only tactically brilliant moment there was defeating the elephants, after that he just funneled men into the slaughter and almost lost until the numidian cavalry arrived and smashed into Hannibal's back, but I digress. Though for Robb it's fair to point out that his war of maneuver was simply brilliant (very Napoleon like) and both at Oxcross and the camps he was badly outnumbered. However strategically Robb was probably more incompetent then Mace Tyrell all in all.

7 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Robb is not incompetent in the strategic sense, all of his decisions on the military field were sound and correct. His failures were political.

Scipio biggest moment is the Battle of Ilipa and the siege of Cartagena in 209 BC. He wasn't a great general because he beat Hannibal, he was choosen to lead the army against Hannibal because he already had a reputation as a great commander, beating Hannibal was just the icing in the cake.

5 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

In contrast to Robb, Tywin's genius is in the strategy. Tactically he is only a decent general (like he doesn't do any major mistakes, but he doesn't have any moments of brilliance either), but strategically he fought more then admirably, never losing a war.

Tywin is far from a "genius" at most he is competent, he never spoke about his plans, with any of the POV's but Eddard, Blackfish and Tyrion all understood what he wanted to do, his moves were obvius to them, Tywin also underastimated Robb and was outmanuvered at the end of AGoT.

 

[Arthur Peres]

About Tarly.

He is the only one to defeat Robert in the field, and even though we only know about this battle, I think is safe to say that he played a role on several other battles, with Ashford just being the most famous one.

[Tyrion1991]

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Robb is not incompetent in the strategic sense, all of his decisions on the military field were sound and correct. His failures were political.

Scipio biggest moment is the Battle of Ilipa and the siege of Cartagena in 209 BC. He wasn't a great general because he beat Hannibal, he was choosen to lead the army against Hannibal because he already had a reputation as a great commander, beating Hannibal was just the icing in the cake.

Tywin is far from a "genius" at most he is competent, he never spoke about his plans, with any of the POV's but Eddard, Blackfish and Tyrion all understood what he wanted to do, his moves were obvius to them, Tywin also underastimated Robb and was outmanuvered at the end of AGoT.

 

 

His strategy was to fight a war of attrition to compel the South to accept the independence of the North and Riverlands. Kill enough Lannister’s and they’ll cave in to Northern demands.

There are several problems with this:

- The North has far less soldiers than the South. This is why the North is empty of soldiers when the Ironborn attack. Northern losses matter, Tywins do not. 

- The North is fighting in exposed territory in the Riverlands rather than “operation fortress North”. That was the only credible way of the North winning to basically fight like Russia where they could use winter to destroy Southern armies until the South accepted peace.

- The North has less industry and commerce. It’s poor. It can’t sustain a large well equipped army for very long in the field. George stretched reality very far that they didn’t all starve to death given the zero preparations made and the length of the campaign.

- There is no single figure with whom the North can actually negotiate a secession. Make a deal with Renly and it will be denied by Tywin. He actually can’t get the deal he wants. 

- They don’t have the ability to take any Southern stronghold to compel a surrender such as Casterly Rock, Kings Landing or Highgarden.

- Tywin can choose not to give battle even if Rob changes course and tries to go for a knockout punch. 

Basically Rob is fighting an unwinnable war of his own volition. This is because he’s overreaching after his early success against smaller Lannister armies. The Riverlands was always a lost cause. He had arguably already conceded this when he fled back North to try and salvage the disaster there.

He lost because he played into Tywins hands. As soon as the North started losing his Lords betrayed him. So it was actually the North that collapsed politically rather than the other way around as Rob intended. Even if he had not married Westerling the result would have been the same. The Bolton’s could have just stabbed Rob in the back and dumped his body in a ditch; but that would be less dramatic and too Swedish. But to me these are major marks against his competence as a leader. If you did that on a Total War game people would not be kind to you.

[Putin]

His actions :

- He defeats Robert forcing him to retreat

- Later with rest of Reach army lay siege to Storms End which failed

- Puts many man to death at Bitterbridge , those who were willing to join Stannis after Renly assasination

- Leads center of Tyrell/ Lannisters army that attacks Stannis forces in kings landing

- He defeats Northsman  at Duskendale

- Captures Maidenpool and secures Kingsroad

We see that unlike Stannis and Tywin he actually fights instead of commanding from behind which means he is formidable warrior.

He is aware that fighting Stannis man at dawn would put them at disadvantage because sun will make his man half blind.

He is aware that not taking care of Stannis would make him stronger while Renly after each battle will become weaker.

Those 2 show he has good military mind.

Ser Kevan about Randyl :

"Tarly is the real danger. A narrow man, but iron-willed and shrewd, and as good a soldier as the reach could boast."

"Randyll Tarly is the finest soldier in the realm. A poor hand for peacetime, but with Tywin dead there's no better man to finish this war"

 

Ads by Amazon 

[Arthur Peres]

17 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Basically Rob is fighting an unwinnable war of his own volition. This is because he’s overreaching after his early success against smaller Lannister armies. The Riverlands was always a lost cause. He had arguably already conceded this when he fled back North to try and salvage the disaster there.

 

Robb went to war over Eddard, his plan was to go to the riverlands, capture enough nobles to trade for his father freedom and rescue his allies at the same time, and he managed that.

The whole KiTN was not his doing and is far from a lost cause at the time that was made, the south was divided into three pretenders and Vale, Iron Islands and Dorne were not willing to get involved. Robb send Catelyn to Renly knowing that he would demand homage of him, the only think Robb would not stand would be to bend the knee to Joffrey, and this is far from a helpless cause.

Robb lost the day Renly died, had it not happened the south would never unity and he would be in a much better position.

22 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 He lost because he played into Tywins hands. As soon as the North started losing his Lords betrayed him. So it was actually the North that collapsed politically rather than the other way around as Rob intended. Even if he had not married Westerling the result would have been the same. The Bolton’s could have just stabbed Rob in the back and dumped his body in a ditch; but that would be less dramatic and too Swedish. But to me these are major marks against his competence as a leader. If you did that on a Total War game people would not be kind to you.

Tywin only won due to luck.

Before the death of Renly, Tywin lost two armies, and got beat by Edmure at the fords, his lands were being pilaged by Robb in the west, KL was having mass riots due to starvation, one of those riots almost killed his family, the houses in the Crowlands refused Joffrey's call for aid. Tywin was outnumbered by the North/Riverland alliance and by Renly.

In a bunch of ramdom events that were not his hands he got: Balon invanding the north,Renly Dying and the Tyrell alliance.

I agree that given the circustances that Robb death was invitable at ASoS, but things only got there by luck, at the end of AGoT Tywin is losing badly, at the start of ACoK his position gets worse, but at the end, every dice that rolled on that book, went to his favor and his victory was assured at ASoS.

[Tyrion1991]

41 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Robb went to war over Eddard, his plan was to go to the riverlands, capture enough nobles to trade for his father freedom and rescue his allies at the same time, and he managed that.

The whole KiTN was not his doing and is far from a lost cause at the time that was made, the south was divided into three pretenders and Vale, Iron Islands and Dorne were not willing to get involved. Robb send Catelyn to Renly knowing that he would demand homage of him, the only think Robb would not stand would be to bend the knee to Joffrey, and this is far from a helpless cause.

Robb lost the day Renly died, had it not happened the south would never unity and he would be in a much better position.

Tywin only won due to luck.

Before the death of Renly, Tywin lost two armies, and got beat by Edmure at the fords, his lands were being pilaged by Robb in the west, KL was having mass riots due to starvation, one of those riots almost killed his family, the houses in the Crowlands refused Joffrey's call for aid. Tywin was outnumbered by the North/Riverland alliance and by Renly.

In a bunch of ramdom events that were not his hands he got: Balon invanding the north,Renly Dying and the Tyrell alliance.

I agree that given the circustances that Robb death was invitable at ASoS, but things only got there by luck, at the end of AGoT Tywin is losing badly, at the start of ACoK his position gets worse, but at the end, every dice that rolled on that book, went to his favor and his victory was assured at ASoS.

 

Crowning himself absolutely is his responsibility. He could easily have shut the Greatjon down before he blew his load. He already put him down once.

It was never a safe assumption that the South would be forever permanently divided politically. It hadn’t fragmented in previous civil wars and there was no reason to assume it would now. Ultimately Rob would need to cut a deal with a stronger party regardless of whether that’s Tywin, Tommen, Renly, Stannis or Dany. The problem would remain that he is not operating from a position of strength. That shows an overestimation of the North’s power and ability to force the South into doing what they want. 

I don’t think Renly accepted him as King of the Riverlands. Might be wrong on that but the deal Renly was pushing was keep your silly unimaginative name and nothing changes. Now, I like to assume that George is just simplifying for our benefit, but there probably  bunch of legal and tax concerns behind this desire for independence beyond the funny names and titles we give for the next guy with a Wolf fetish. So Rob is probably not going river agree to King in name only. Otherwise why on earth bother and not just declare for Renly?

Tywins not his only enemy. He should have foreseen the possibility of threats from other quarters including the Tyrell’s and Greyjoy’s. Those are huge presumptions that are massive misjudgements and not innocent. 

By not acting to prevent Tywin relieving the siege and not telling Edmure the MASTER plan? These are pretty big blunders. Miscommunication and poor delegation are leadership failings. You don’t blame the idiot when you set the idiot to the task and you knew he was an idiot. Tywin shouldn’t have been able to easily withdraw his whole army out of the Riverlands. Rob should have prevented Tywin doing that and he failed spectacularly in this regard. Simplest way to do that would be to harass the Lannister column and threaten Tywin directly. Instead he sends his army hundreds of miles away at a capital he has no way of taking. 

 

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

The whole KiTN was not his doing

Of course it was. He was in a position of authority, no one forced the crown on him.

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

 

and is far from a lost cause at the time that was made, the south was divided into three pretenders

No, it was not. Renly and Stannis rebelled after Robb marched South. Robb was extremely lucky that both rebelled, otherwise he may have been facing a much larger threat.

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

and Vale, Iron Islands and Dorne were not willing to get involved.

Robb does not know that. It became more than apparant that Robb has no clue what the Iron Islands and Vale would do.

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Robb send Catelyn to Renly knowing that he would demand homage of him, the only think Robb would not stand would be to bend the knee to Joffrey, and this is far from a helpless cause.

Where is this said, about Robb and Renly? Robb does not send Cat with anything to offer Renly.

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Robb lost the day Renly died, had it not happened the south would never unity and he would be in a much better position.

Robb lost the day he marched south. He lost again the day he put on the crown.

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Tywin only won due to luck.

No, not only.

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Before the death of Renly, Tywin lost two armies,

He did not lose them, they were beat and the survivors retreated. This is pretty common in war.

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

and got beat by Edmure at the fords,

Yes, Edmure stopped him going West.

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

his lands were being pilaged by Robb in the west,

But not his important settlements. Robb points out he did not have the men to threaten Lannisport or Casterly Rock.

There is only so much damage Robb's 5k can do.

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

KL was having mass riots due to starvation,

Due you actually know what mass riots means? Or are you just exaggerating because your argument is pretty weak?

Can you list all these riots?

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

one of those riots almost killed his family, the houses in the Crowlands refused Joffrey's call for aid.

That is not true. Can you quote this? Houses Stokeworth, Rosby, Rykker, Hogg, Hayford, Byrch, Harte Brune etc. were represented with the Royals at the Battle of Blackwater.

Why the need for hyperbole? Why is it every few months you repeat the same lies?

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Tywin was outnumbered by the North/Riverland alliance and by Renly.

Finally, something true.

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

In a bunch of ramdom events that were not his hands he got: Balon invanding the north,Renly Dying and the Tyrell alliance.

Yup. Such things happen in war. All the victors in the War of the Five Kings had some benefit of luck.

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

I agree that given the circustances that Robb death was invitable at ASoS, but things only got there by luck, at the end of AGoT Tywin is losing badly,

No, he is not even losing. He's not in a great position, the odds are against him, but such is war on multiple fronts.

 

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

at the start of ACoK his position gets worse, but at the end, every dice that rolled on that book,

lol so you only count the dice that goes in his favour but ignore when the dice goes against him?

 

[Arthur Peres]

40 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Crowning himself absolutely is his responsibility. He could easily have shut the Greatjon down before he blew his load. He already put him down once.

 

Not really that easy to predict. Robb would need to see the future to see what Greatjon was doing. 

And it wasn't just Greatjon... the whole hall was crowing him.

48 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 It was never a safe assumption that the South would be forever permanently divided politically. It hadn’t fragmented in previous civil wars and there was no reason to assume it would now. Ultimately Rob would need to cut a deal with a stronger party regardless of whether that’s Tywin, Tommen, Renly, Stannis or Dany. The problem would remain that he is not operating from a position of strength. That shows an overestimation of the North’s power and ability to force the South into doing what they want. 

 

Sure, but the Targeryans had flying giant lizards that breath fire. Neither Stannis, Renly or Tywin have it, they also do not have the legitimacy, and neither of them can count with the loyalty of Dorne and the Iron Islands and Tywin can't even count on the loyalty of the Vale.

Robb would be forced to bend the knee eventually, because of the riverlands, but his position at the start of ACoK was everything but weak.

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 I don’t think Renly accepted him as King of the Riverlands. Might be wrong on that but the deal Renly was pushing was keep your silly unimaginative name and nothing changes. Now, I like to assume that George is just simplifying for our benefit, but there probably  bunch of legal and tax concerns behind this desire for independence beyond the funny names and titles we give for the next guy with a Wolf fetish. So Rob is probably not going river agree to King in name only. Otherwise why on earth bother and not just declare for Renly?

 

They never talked, and Renly is selling himself much more stronger than he actually is to Catelyn. He counted both Stannis and Dorne as his vassals for example. His army would also shrink in size after battles, and Mace showed that he has no interest in the North.

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 Tywins not his only enemy. He should have foreseen the possibility of threats from other quarters including the Tyrell’s and Greyjoy’s. Those are huge presumptions that are massive misjudgements and not innocent. 

 

Even so, Tywin is everybody first target. Robb was not a priority.

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 By not acting to prevent Tywin relieving the siege and not telling Edmure the MASTER plan? These are pretty big blunders. Miscommunication and poor delegation are leadership failings. You don’t blame the idiot when you set the idiot to the task and you knew he was an idiot. Tywin shouldn’t have been able to easily withdraw his whole army out of the Riverlands. Rob should have prevented Tywin doing that and he failed spectacularly in this regard. Simplest way to do that would be to harass the Lannister column and threaten Tywin directly. Instead he sends his army hundreds of miles away at a capital he has no way of taking. 

 

Edmure's mistakes are not Robb's mistakes.

When Robb left Riverrun Edmure didn't even had an army with him, only a garrison. Edmure never contacted Robb that he intended to fight Tywin, and went on the offensive against his orders. Robb in the Westerland was able to destroy another Lannister army, and pillage their land enough to lure Tywin in.

And even then, the Tyrells would crush Stannis without Tywin, they army was big enough and the Ghost of Renly had nothing to do with Tywin.

[Arthur Peres]

8 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Of course it was. He was in a position of authority, no one forced the crown on him.

Quote

“Your lords made you their king.”

“And can unmake me just as easy.”

Robb could not do whatever he wanted.

10 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, it was not. Renly and Stannis rebelled after Robb marched South. Robb was extremely lucky that both rebelled, otherwise he may have been facing a much larger threat.

Quote

Robb knew that his enemies were the Lannisters from the moment he gathered his forces, and unlike the Lannisters he didn't provoke any other party. 

 

12 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Robb does not know that. It became more than apparant that Robb has no clue what the Iron Islands and Vale would do.

And how could he know that Lysa would renagate her own family and homeland? And no one could predict Balon. You talk like he is to blame for not seeing the future...

15 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 Where is this said, about Robb and Renly? Robb does not send Cat with anything to offer Renly.

Quote

“King Renly.” If she would ask help from the man, she would need to grant him the style he had claimed for himself. “

Perhaps.” The Blackfish smiled a dangerous smile. “He’ll want something, though.”

“He’ll want what kings always want,” she said. “Homage.”

16 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

He did not lose them, they were beat and the survivors retreated. This is pretty common in war.

Quote

Sure... because my point totally was abaout how Stafford couldn't find his way home and got lost...

18 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes, Edmure stopped him going West.

By defeating him in the process.

19 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 There is only so much damage Robb's 5k can do.

6k

19 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Due you actually know what mass riots means? Or are you just exaggerating because your argument is pretty weak?

 Can you list all these riots?

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Riot_of_King's_Landing

23 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Rykker, Hogg, Hayford, Byrch, Harte Brune etc. were represented with the Royals at the Battle of Blackwater.

Can you show me the quote were thoses houses were presents?

26 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, he is not even losing. He's not in a great position, the odds are against him, but such is war on multiple fronts.

 

“What can we do? Jaime’s host is all slaughtered or taken or put to flight, and the Starks and the Tullys sit squarely across our line of supply. We are cut off from the west! They can march on Casterly Rock if they so choose, and what’s to stop them? My lords, we are beaten. We must sue for peace.”

You’ll have an easier time drinking wine from that cup than you will convincing Robb Stark to make peace now. He’s winning . . . or hadn’t you noticed?”

Really seems like he is losing...

29 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

lol so you only count the dice that goes in his favour but ignore when the dice goes against him?

 

And what dices went against Tywin?

[Bernie Mac]

1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said:

“Your lords made you their king.”

“And can unmake me just as easy.”

Robb could not do whatever he wanted.

Of course he could. How many Northern Lords were actually present?

Robb chose to be King. He made the decision to accept the offer. No one forced it upon him, no one threatened him.

1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said:

Robb knew that his enemies were the Lannisters from the moment he gathered his forces, and unlike the Lannisters he didn't provoke any other party. 

Robb marched South against the Crown, which at the time included the Reach and Stormlands. Robb made an idiotic decision to go to war with the King of Westeros. He was lucky that Stannis and Renly rebelled.

1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

And how could he know that Lysa would renagate her own family and homeland?

He couldn't. Just like he could not know that would support him in rebelling against the Crown. That is my point, he recklessly assumed, rather than sending a Raven to finding out their position.

1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

And no one could predict Balon. You talk like he is to blame for not seeing the future...

Exactly. Balon is unpredictable. Do you even read the arguments you make? You claimed the Iron Islands were not willing to get involved. That is what I responded to. But as usual when someone points out that you made a mistake you just move the goalposts. Every month like clockwork.

1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said:

“King Renly.” If she would ask help from the man, she would need to grant him the style he had claimed for himself. “

Perhaps.” The Blackfish smiled a dangerous smile. “He’ll want something, though.”

“He’ll want what kings always want,” she said. “Homage.”

What does that mean? Robb does not tell Cat to offer that to Renly, does he? Can you quote where that happens? Or are you simply making shit up?

1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said:

Sure... because my point totally was abaout how Stafford couldn't find his way home and got lost...

eh? God knows what your point is as you constantly change it.

1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said:

By defeating him in the process.

lol yes. He stopped him from going West.

1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said:

6k

6k in the Riverlands befroe the battles of the Whispering Woods, Camps and Oxcross. Robb afterwards had around 5k.

If you want to quote me the numbers from the books where it suggests he had 6k in the Westerlands after the battle of Oxcross I am more than happy to hear them.

1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Riot_of_King's_Landing

You said mass riots. Please list all the riots. If you meant just one riot, why the need for hyperbole?

1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said:

Can you show me the quote were thoses houses were presents?

Yes.

Hallyne fled so quickly that he almost bowled over Ser Jacelyn—no, Lord Jacelyn, he must remember that. Ironhand was mercifully direct, as ever. He'd returned from Rosby to deliver a fresh levy of spearmen recruited from Lord Gyles's estates and resume his command of the City Watch.

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"Donnel was wounded in the battle and yielded to Ser Elwood Harte. He was ransomed afterward and pledged his fealty to King Joffrey, as did many other captives."

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Falyse had arrived yesterday from Castle Stokeworth with a small troop of soldiers. She was trying to coax her sister onto the bridge, but Lollys clung to her maid, sobbing, "I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want to."

So you claimed that all the Crownland Houses refused to help. That was your claim, a claim that you have not bothered to provide evidence for. Do you admit you were mistaken or are you simply going to move the goalposts?

1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said:

“What can we do? Jaime’s host is all slaughtered or taken or put to flight, and the Starks and the Tullys sit squarely across our line of supply. We are cut off from the west! They can march on Casterly Rock if they so choose, and what’s to stop them? My lords, we are beaten. We must sue for peace.”

You’ll have an easier time drinking wine from that cup than you will convincing Robb Stark to make peace now. He’s winning . . . or hadn’t you noticed?”

Really seems like he is losing...

lol you are so disingenuous. What does Addam Marband say to this in the next paragraph?

Do you think Harrys Swyft is a good representation of the Westerland forces? He wanted peace just like Stevron Frey and Cat wanted peace.

1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said:

And what dices went against Tywin?

Are you kidding?

• His children cuckolding the king and his grandchildren being illegitimate
• Ned being executed
• Jaime not posting scouts or no one alerting his sleeping army
• Walder Frey acting wildly out of character by supporting a rebellion
• Robb's magical pet finding a hidden entrance into the Westerlands that the people of the Westerlands had no idea about
• Robb's army managing to travel in the West without being spotted

 

[The Young Maester]

21 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Robb marched South against the Crown, which at the time included the Reach and Stormlands. Robb made an idiotic decision to go to war with the King of Westeros.

Its a show of force, Robb raising an army helps pressure the Iron throne into negotiating Neds release. It might have seemed like a stupid decision. But it later on proved to be a good decision. It was good plan in which he captured Jamie, a potential bargaining tool in which he can make peace and exchange his father.