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Tywin Manderly

US Politics: Time to Stock Up

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1 hour ago, Zorral said:

 

Ya! those Dem women!

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/porter-presses-cdc-director-to-confirm-coronavirus-testing-will-be-free-80569413792

Katie Porter (a Warren student, btw) WOOOO!  -- she forced t's uttlerly incompetent CDC head to concede on the record and video that -- when!!!!!! -- tests become available every American can have one at no cost.  And that was hard work.  He was determined to just not say ANYTHING.  Now he's probably being reamed, again, by t himself and all the others.

In the meantime, in Senegal, one of those 'shit hole countries,' it takes about 4 hours to the test and results.  That's how damned good the US is, with not even doing tests because, ya, no test kits.

 

 

I’m not from the U.S but can the head of the CDC promise this (free tests)? Sounds more like something the Federal Govt. would need to declare

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If any of you want to get a laugh, apply to become a member of the Royal Caribbean Cruises Facebook page. I think I already mentioned this.

My brother, SiL and various friends used to go on cruises, once a year, sometimes twice. We have not been on a cruise since soon after Trump's election, either just after inauguration day, or a year later, I actually forget when. We keep saying they've become too expensive, but frankly speaking, that last cruise became quite distasteful. Understanding, of course, that 45% of the country voted for him, about half the Americans on a cruise ship are likely Trump supporters. We saw that they were getting more and more...aggresive? Mouthy? Arrogant? Careless of the way they treated others? Not really against Canadians per se, but against people on the cruise from other countries. Oh, especially Puerto Ricans. Antipathy towards Puerto Ricans has been there for the 15 years we went on cruises.

Anyway, I have been reading the posts on the FB page for the last couple of weeks, watching as more and more people were wondering if they should go on their cruise. Soooo many people have the attitude of screw this shit, it's no worse than the flu, I'm going. Other voices were also there, saying they were not worried about themselves but worried about coming home with the virus and making others sick. Another worry was getting stuck on board for two weeks, like the folks on the Princess ships. For the last week the two sides have gotten more and more strident. Many people started reporting their place of work had instituted rules that anyone who left the country would have to self-isolate for two weeks before they would be allowed to return. OMG! the food fights going on! The name-calling! The racism, the misogyny, the sneers ("you pussy!")

My lord, if you want to see white privilege in full blown action, take a look. You may be stuck at home for a couple of weeks in need of entertainment. It's the posts with 400 or 500 comments that are the best, it means there are side conversations where people are cursing each other and using very colorful language.

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34 minutes ago, DMC said:

Interesting example to bring up.  A few days ago there was some consternation here that Joe Biden had the gall to say Saddam Hussein should be ousted.  As if that's a bad thing to assert.  How you do it is the question.  You're right of course, I thought at the time that the way Dubya did it was insanely stupid and would just advance Iran's interests in the region, which it did.  But that doesn't mean ousting Hussein was a bad idea.  It just means figuring out a better way to do it.  I readily admit, I don't that better way.  Maybe there isn't.  But I think it's an interesting question to throw around.

Sure, to be clear, I'm not trying to guilt you or anyone else here on "not caring about the suffering of others."  No.  Big No.  That's not my intent in the least bit and people that do that very much annoy me.  Just think it's a good discussion while I'm effectively quarantined in my apartment or bars for the next month (at least).

Pretty sure that was me, and I think I made it pretty clear that my issue was with the fact that Biden clearly supported the war, knew the WMDs weren't really there, and lied about it all saying Bush tricked him.  

It wasn't "the gall to say Saddam should be ousted".  It was the lying.  

I linked that video of Biden in 1998 not to prove he supported the war, of which there is no doubt, but to show that he had already claimed that the ONLY WAY to go in there was US boots on the ground.  I think he even said "at first alone, and later with support".  That was to dispell his claims that Bush conned him into it - it wasn't just "aw Biden had the gall to suggest Saddam is a bad guy".  

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, DMC said:

I agree whole-heartedly.  But how can we!  Let's say there's a fantasy utopia, where the APSA, MPSA, SPSA conferences and all the ideas expressed therein are actually listened to by elites.  The US - we - have the capability to do so much good, if we wanted.  Much more than we actually do - just look at the foreign aid budget.  Yes, we've always fucked things up, hard to think of a counter-example on our intervention.  But!  Maybe we can figure out a way to not fuck things up?  Or do you think that's impossible?  

This isn't an emotional response.  It's a discussion question.  If you just think it's folly, fair enough.

Well I have no problem giving nations foreign aid to help them develop. To be clear, I'm not an isolationist.

With regard to trying to pull off a regime change, I remain extremely skeptical that it can be pulled off successfully. But factors to consider would be in my rough estimation: 1) a strong sense of nation statehood within the country. Seems to me it would be extremely hard to pull off a regime strange, if because of ethnic strife, there is not a strong loyalty to the nation state, 2) the cultural factors present that would make the state amenable to a democratic system. 3) The degree of international support.

Edited by OldGimletEye

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1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

This has been a sobering few weeks. For three years Trump has irresponsibly goosed the markets using all our tools to help combat a recession, and here we. Most of the gains are gone, and the market could be under 20,000 after tomorrow. We're staring down a recession with nothing to show for it except an even more broke and broken country. And now we can sprinkle some pandemic on top of it.

This is why you don't elected a failed businessman turned reality T.V. star to any office, let alone the presidency. 

Lord this is well put.  I was speaking with one of my partners from a red state the other day.  He is a self-proclaimed Libertarian, and was chatting about how he supports Trump not because he likes him per se (this individual purports to be a religious Catholic and have morals), but because of the “chaos” he creates undermining trust in governments (and how that is a good thing).  I tweaked him a little bit at the time, and got him to contradict himself like 10 times (all the places he thought government intervention was GOOD - basically any time it benefitted him or his family).  But that was a simpler time.  I’d almost like to rewind in time to that moment, a week and a half ago, with video from now, and SCREAM IN HIS GENERAL DIRECTION.  He IS the problem.  

7 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I’m not from the U.S but can the head of the CDC promise this (free tests)? Sounds more like something the Federal Govt. would need to declare

I read the transcript. Sounded from the line of questioning like the head of the CDC has authority under its enabling statute (and it is part of the federal government) so I’m not sure more authority is needed.  I would have to go back and look at the law myself though, which I have not done.

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I hope all of you with Republican members of Congress or Senators are calling and demanding to know where the test kits are.

And really. Where. The. Bloody. Hell. Are. The. Test. Kits?

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1 minute ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Lord this is well put.  I was speaking with one of my partners from a red state the other day.  He is a self-proclaimed Libertarian, and was chatting about how he supports Trump not because he likes him per se (this individual purports to be a religious Catholic and have morals), but because of the “chaos” he creates undermining trust in governments (and how that is a good thing).  I tweaked him a little bit at the time, and got him to contradict himself like 10 times (all the places he thought government intervention was GOOD - basically any time it benefitted him or his family).  But that was a simpler time.  I’d almost like to rewind in time to that moment, a week and a half ago, with video from now, and SCREAM IN HIS GENERAL DIRECTION.  He IS the problem.  .

I personally enjoy messing with libertarians. I hope you had a good time. Messing with libertarians is fun.

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13 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Pretty sure that was me, and I think I made it pretty clear that my issue was with the fact that Biden clearly supported the war, knew the WMDs weren't really there, and lied about it all saying Bush tricked him.  

It wasn't "the gall to say Saddam should be ousted".  It was the lying.  

I linked that video of Biden in 1998 not to prove he supported the war, of which there is no doubt, but to show that he had already claimed that the ONLY WAY to go in there was US boots on the ground.  I think he even said "at first alone, and later with support".  That was to dispell his claims that Bush conned him into it - it wasn't just "aw Biden had the gall to suggest Saddam is a bad guy".  

Biden's a pathological liar. It almost seems as if he doesn't know he's lying as his mind seems to accept the lie as the new truth. If we didn't have clear records and statements from him at the time, he'd do what Trump does and rewrite our understanding about what we know happened.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Biden clearly supported the war, knew the WMDs weren't really there, and lied about it all saying Bush tricked him.  

Uh, K.  Biden lied about knowing there weren't WMD's?  Please cite on that one.  While I suspected it was bullshit before the war even started, no one "knew" anything for quite a while.  And the claim that a guy who gassed his own people was trying to attain "WMDs" (which is a stupid term to begin with) isn't that far-fetched.  Dubya didn't trick the Dems.  The whole western world and their intelligence agencies did.  The NYT and WaPo did.  Like, seriously, do you remember the climate at that time?  Biden made ONE vote authorizing force.  I suppose that makes him responsible for the Iraq War.  But shared with all the 89 81 Democratic representatives and 28 Democratic Senators that voted exactly the same way.

Anyway, please demonstrate when Biden actually lied?  Because that just sounds like a whole bunch of horseshit.

28 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

to show that he had already claimed that the ONLY WAY to go in there was US boots on the ground.  I think he even said "at first alone, and later with support".  That was to dispell his claims that Bush conned him into it - it wasn't just "aw Biden had the gall to suggest Saddam is a bad guy".

I honestly don't care enough to check what you're referring to, but so what?  He said the only way to oust Saddam was through US boots on the ground?  By gawd he identified a fact! 

I do agree though, in general, that Biden is a pathological liar.  Just like Sanders.

Edited by DMC

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23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

But factors to consider would be in my rough estimation: 1) a strong sense of nation statehood within the country. Seems to me it would be extremely hard to pull off a regime strange, if because of ethnic strife, there is not a strong loyalty to the nation state, 2) the cultural factors present that would make the state amenable to a democratic system. 3) The degree of international support.

Well, points 1 and 2 kind of seem the same.  What do you think about the economic development vs. democracy debate?  Do you think building a "professional" or solid middle class is necessary but not sufficient for regimes to adapt into democracies, or do you think that is a bunch of bullshit us social scientists made up?

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26 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

Biden's a pathological liar.

Dude, seriously, step away from the internet for a bit. He ain't perfect but making that kind of a statement makes you look like a ridiculous person. I don't think you are a ridiculous person.

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9 minutes ago, DMC said:

Well, points 1 and 2 kind of seem the same.  What do you think about the economic development vs. democracy debate?  Do you think building a "professional" or solid middle class is necessary but not sufficient for regimes to adapt into democracies, or do you think that is a bunch of bullshit us social scientists made up?

I think that while strong identification with the nation state is necessary for democracy to develop, I don't think it is sufficient for democracy to develop, That is the reason for the distinction between 1&2.

With respect to having a solid middle class. I'm not quite certain that is necessary for some kind of democracy to develop. I am a bit more certain that such a middle class is more likely to make a nation state succeed at democracy. One reason, is that a strong middle class, which I take as not too much inequality, is more likely to support public institutions that provide public goods and investments. Those things in my opinion do help economic growth. Ceteris paribus, a prosperous society is likely to be a more happy society. Also relative low levels of inequality is likelier, in my opinion, to foster greater degrees of trust.

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

daaaamn

 

 

Wow, I wonder how long it took her to focus group that and have a member of her social media team send that tweet.

With all this bullshit with testing and the cost of treatment, doesn't it just make you wish that we had... Oh I don't know... universal healthcare? If there was an oppertunity for Bernie to thread that needle to make this a competitive race it is by hammering the this fact. Exit polls have show Democratic voters strongly support Medicare for All, and really drawing that contrast in this crisis could really turn things around. Highly unlikely, but it is a chance.

Also it strongly seems that the US supported the miscarriage of justice that lead to Lula being imprisoned and Bolsonaro winning election as Brazil's president. Great look boys, great look.

Edited by GrimTuesday

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1 minute ago, OldGimletEye said:

One reason, is that a strong middle class, which I take as not too much inequality, is more likely to support public institutions that provide public goods and investments. Those things in my opinion do help economic growth. Ceteris paribus, a prosperous society is likely to be a more happy society. Also relative low levels of inequality is likelier, in my opinion, to foster greater degrees of trust.

Yup.  Good talk!  :cheers:

 

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3 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yup.  Good talk!  :cheers:

 

Yes, I agree. :agree:

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5 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Wow, I wonder how long it took her to focus group that and have a member of her social media team send that tweet. 

Probably a while, but it was a good tweet by her social media team!

5 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

With all this bullshit with testing and the cost of treatment, doesn't it just make you wish that we had... Oh I don't know... universal healthcare? If there was an oppertunity for Bernie to thread that needle to make this a competitive race it is by hammering the this fact. Exit polls have show Democratic voters strongly support Medicare for All, and really drawing that contrast in this crisis could really turn things around. Highly unlikely, but it is a chance. 

The problem is that it's attached to Sanders at this point. Again, I long for having Warren because she has that policy (and a lot more) along with absurd competence and the desire to not nuke the democratic party from orbit. I think you're right that this would be an excellent time to hammer home why it's important to take care of EVERYONE in the society, but I don't think that Sanders is going to be able to make that argument without also being, well, Sanders.

 

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Fox News During the Coronavirus Pandemic Is Awful Even by Fox News Standards
Which is really saying something.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/03/fox-news-is-denying-coronavirus-and-risking-viewers-lives.html

Quote

On Wednesday night, Sean Hannity informed the viewers of his nightly Fox News program that—and I am not being hyperbolic—the thing to know about the novel coronavirus was that the Trump administration had done a great job containing it. “No president has ever done more, acted more quickly, to slow the spread of a disease,” Hannity declared of the viral outbreak that has been deemed a pandemic by the World Health Organization, prompted the suspension of most professional and amateur sports, and killed thousands of people worldwide. “We labeled it [as the coronavirus] on Jan. 7. On January 31 of this year, three weeks later, the Trump administration declared a public health emergency. No president ever acted that fast.” Go, team!

 

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48 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

I personally enjoy messing with libertarians. I hope you had a good time. Messing with libertarians is fun.

I had a great time.  It was particularly fun because I’m not quite sure he’s entirely comfortable that I exist.  Seems a little more sinister now though.

2 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

Fox News During the Coronavirus Pandemic Is Awful Even by Fox News Standards
Which is really saying something.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/03/fox-news-is-denying-coronavirus-and-risking-viewers-lives.html

 

A little gallows humor here- my husband saw that and said “well, that’s one way to ensure a Democratic president - kill off the opposition’s voting base.” 

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42 minutes ago, DMC said:

Uh, K.  Biden lied about knowing there weren't WMD's?  Please cite on that one.  While I suspected it was bullshit before the war even started, no one "knew" anything for quite a while.  And the claim that a guy who gassed his own people was trying to attain "WMDs" (which is a stupid term to begin with) isn't that far-fetched.  Dubya didn't trick the Dems.  The whole western world and their intelligence agencies did.  The NYT and WaPo did.  Like, seriously, do you remember the climate at that time?  Biden made ONE vote authorizing force.  I suppose that makes him responsible for the Iraq War.  But shared with all the 89 Democratic representatives and 28 Democratic Senators that voted exactly the same way.

Anyway, please demonstrate when Biden actually lied?  Because that just sounds like a whole bunch of horseshit.

I honestly don't care enough to check what you're referring to, but so what?  He said the only way to oust Saddam was through US boots on the ground?  By gawd he identified a fact! 

I do agree though, in general, that Biden is a pathological liar.  Just like Sanders.

Uhhhhh, k.  Yeah, I do remember that time

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2019/10/15/20849072/joe-biden-iraq-history-democrats-election-2020

Quote

And then Biden changed his story. “I never believed they had weapons of mass destruction,” he said at an event at the Council on Foreign Relations think tank in October 2004. That statement looks a lot like either a lie in the moment or an inadvertent admission that he had lied in the run-up to the war

 

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