Unconventional opinions dumpsterfire of a thread

[Nagini's Neville]

26 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Tyrion has no interest in a 12 year-old bride who is likely to be ill-disposedtowards him.  He is also skeptical of being able to claim Winterfell.

Sansa is going to marry a Lannister, if Tywin has to reach down into the family tree.  Tyrion also knows his father can make his life a misery.  So he figures he might as well be the one to marry her.

It should also be said that he consistently treats her with kindness and respect, and when he senses her great discomfort on their wedding night, he stops.

Tyrion may be, or become, a villain, but he is not one with regards to Sansa.  And I say this as a long standing Stark, and Sansa, fan.  Tyrion has his failings; I don't think his treatment of Sansa is one of them.

IMO molestation is neither kindness nor respect

And yeah he personally wants WF and Sansa sexually he says it more than once.

to add to the quote that EW and WD provided, here he directly tells her on their WN:

" “A child,” he repeated, “but I want you. Does that frighten you, Sansa?” "

 

[Peach King]

On 4/17/2020 at 1:45 AM, Nevets said:

It's not that common in Westeros either.  In the main story I can think of only 3 marriages that were, or were supposed to be, consummated before the girl was 16: Dany/Drogo, Tyrion/Sansa, and fArya/Ramsay.   Hardly typical.  

Tyrion definitely didn't want a 12 year-old as his wife.  Ramsay is Ramsay, and we don't really know that much about Drogo's preferences.

Littlefinger's interest in Sansa is troubling, and is intended to be.  I think Sandor's interest in Sansa is mostly protective in nature.  

That's all for now. I don't want to derail things further.

15 year old Margaery Tyrell and Renly Baratheon.

15 year old Walda Frey and 40-50 year old Roose Bolton.

15 year old Alys Karstark and Sigorn of Thenn.

Jorah's wife Lynesse Hightower was 15, but tbf Jorah is a creep.

Rhaella had Rhaegar at 14.

No one really brings up Rhaegar and Lyanna's age difference.

There's a lot more examples in the other books (Dunk and Egg, Fire and Blood, The World of Ice And Fire).

I don't think GRRM is trying for some commentary on underage or age gap relationships here. Sure, he has Tyrion thinking of Sansa as a child, has Ned being disturbed at Barra's mother being so young, and has Arianne scolding her 14 year old cousin for kissing a man, but he also romanticizes Dany and Drogo, called Rhaegar a "lovestruck prince", and has a Sandor and Sansa picture hanging in his room. I think GRRM thinks of age as just something that can be transgressed despite societal norms in the case of "true love", like class or race or gender.

[Dot Com]

The point I was trying to make is that Tyrion is an anti-hero, not a villain. Doing bad things and good things is just what anti-heroes do. I'm not denying that his conduct at some points is less than savoury ... but that doesn't mean he's doomed to eternally being an enemy of the Starks. Consider that all of the Starks currently hate Jaime's guts. Yet, he is probably the character (along with Brienne) who is most focused on returning Sansa to Winterfell right now. 

25 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

Jon's thoughts on Tyrion are really weird. I mean for Sansa to think kindly of him is one thing. The poor girl's bar of human decency is at rock bottom. Of course she would be moved by the tiny amount of empathy Tyrion showed her. Jon on the other hand shouldn't have such thoughts. If the news of Tyrion killing Tywin has reached him then surely he must know of Sansa's forced marriage. And yet somehow he never thinks of her and nor does he hate Tyrion because realistically speaking he should. Like really really hate him. The fact that he doesn't makes him look very unsympathetic. What is GRRM up to for writing him like this?

I think the simplest answer is the best one in this case ... Jon just likes Tyrion. He made a saddle for his little brother, after all. 

[corbon]

Lets extend that quote out a bit so we understand it a bit more.

Quote

And their nights together in the great bed were another source of torment. He could no longer bear to sleep naked, as had been his custom. His wife was too well trained ever to say an unkind word, but the revulsion in her eyes whenever she looked on his body was more than he could bear. Tyrion had commanded Sansa to wear a sleeping shift as well. I want her, he realized. I want Winterfell, yes, but I want her as well, child or woman or whatever she is. I want to comfort her. I want to hear her laugh. I want her to come to me willingly, to bring me her joys and her sorrows and her lust. His mouth twisted in a bitter smile. Yes, and I want to be tall as Jaime and as strong as Ser Gregor the Mountain too, for all the bloody good it does.

So this is after he's married to her, after they are sleeping together in the same bed, all the while while he is refusing to touch her.

He wants to comfort her.
He wants to hear her laugh.
He wants her to come to him willingly (while accepting her choice not to).
He wants her to bring him her joys and sorrows.
He wants her to bring him her lust (while hlding his desire in check out of respect for her choice).

My god, he's so evil!

Don't forget, he's not finished.
He wants to be as tall as Jaime.
He wants to be as strong as the Mountain.

Lets condemn his whol-y evil feelings for things he knows he can't have.
Don't forget to ignore his actual actions, because facts that don't fit with the narrative are not acceptable. 

 

[Elegant Woes]

15 minutes ago, Dot Com said:

I think the simplest answer is the best one in this case ... Jon just likes Tyrion. He made a saddle for his little brother, after all. 

Sure he had liked Tyrion but realistically speaking any good will he had for him should have evaporated the second he heard they had married. I mean would you still think kindly of a guy who forcibly marries your twelve year old sister? The fact he doesn't do this is not a good look on Jon. 

[Nagini's Neville]

15 minutes ago, Dot Com said:

The point I was trying to make is that Tyrion is an anti-hero, not a villain. Doing bad things and good things is just what anti-heroes do. I'm not denying that his conduct at some points is less than savoury ... but that doesn't mean he's doomed to eternally being an enemy of the Starks. Consider that all of the Starks currently hate Jaime's guts. Yet, he is probably the character (along with Brienne) who is most focused on returning Sansa to Winterfell right now. 

That is your opinion. IMO hurting, killing and terrorizing others (often completely innocent powerless people, far beneath him in status) just for the sake of hurting, personal pleasure or revenge is what villains do, not anti-heroes. 

As horrible as the Hound and Jaime are at least there was a reason they killed/tried to kill a child. Tyrion hurt and killed even though that had zero positive impact on his life at all, just basically because he could, he felt hurt himself so he just took it out on others.

Also GRRM has called him a villain himself, not an anti-hero. And he gets compared to Tywin, who is clearly a villain.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

Sure he had liked Tyrion but realistically speaking any good will he had for him should have evaporated the second he heard of the Purple Wedding. I mean would you still think kindly of a guy who forcibly marries your twelve year old sister? The fact he doesn't do this is not a good look on Jon. 

Why at the purple wedding? 

Also, I think what actions of Jon's look good vs bad on him is quite subjective & a matter of opinion. 

[kissdbyfire]

15 minutes ago, Dot Com said:

The point I was trying to make is that Tyrion is an anti-hero, not a villain. Doing bad things and good things is just what anti-heroes do. I'm not denying that his conduct at some points is less than savoury ... but that doesn't mean he's doomed to eternally being an enemy of the Starks. Consider that all of the Starks currently hate Jaime's guts. Yet, he is probably the character (along with Brienne) who is most focused on returning Sansa to Winterfell right now. 

Irt the bold, I think it remains to be seen. And I’m not saying this b/c Martin called him a villain and not an anti-hero, but b/c he is becoming increasingly dark, and some of his behaviour in Dance is truly disgusting and disturbing. Is it possible he’ll hell crawl back out of the self-loathing and self-justification pit he’s currently in? Sure. Is it possible he won’t? Again, sure. But he surely has a long road ahead of him, if he is to become a decent human being. In fact, the road ahead for him is much, much longer than Jaime’s or Sandor’s, for instance.

15 minutes ago, Dot Com said:

I think the simplest answer is the best one in this case ... Jon just likes Tyrion. He made a saddle for his little brother, after all. 

I agree here. To a degree, at least. I do think a part of it is just b/c demands of the plot. 

[Elegant Woes]

Just now, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Why at the purple wedding? 

Also, I think what actions of Jon's look good vs bad on him is quite subjective & a matter of opinion. 

I got confused for second and mistook the Purple wedding for Sansa & Tyrion's. Is there even a name for their wedding?

For Jon to think of a guy who he only got know for a couple weeks over the little sister he has known his whole life is disturbing to say the least. GRRM sure has interesting priorities 

[Dot Com]

16 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

That is your opinion. IMO hurting, killing and terrorizing others (often completely innocent powerless people, far beneath him in status) just for the sake of hurting, personal pleasure or revenge is what villains do, not anti-heroes. 

As horrible as the Hound and Jaime are at least there was a reason they killed/tried to kill a child. Tyrion hurt and killed even though that had zero positive impact on his life at all, just basically because he could, he felt hurt himself so he just took it out on others.

 Wait, so are you saying Sandor and Jaime are anti-heroes, but Tyrion is not? This is just inconsistent. Both Jaime and Sandor have killed and/or terrorized others "just for the sake of hurting, personal pleasure, or revenge." Jaime was going to kill Arya just because Cersei told him to. He ordered Jory killed out of revenge for Tyrion's kidnapping, even though he had nothing to do with it. Sandor reiterated multiple times that he took pleasure from killing people. 

For the record, I think all three are anti-heroes. But it doesn't make sense to classify Jaime and Sandor as anti-heroes and Tyrion as a villain. He's probably the lightest grey of the bunch, and had a more tortured upbringing to boot. 

17 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

Sure he had liked Tyrion but realistically speaking any good will he had for him should have evaporated the second he heard of the Purple Wedding. I mean would you still think kindly of a guy who forcibly marries your twelve year old sister? The fact he doesn't do this is not a good look on Jon. 

Well Jon thinks Tyrion is a good guy, so perhaps he thought a marriage to him was the best option that would reasonably be available to a hostage.  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Just now, Elegant Woes said:

got confused for second and mistook the Purple wedding for Sansa & Tyrion's. Is there even a name for their wedding?

Oh gotcha. No I don't think there is a name for their wedding. 

1 minute ago, Elegant Woes said:

For Jon to think of a guy who he only got know for a couple weeks over the little sister he has known his whole life is disturbing to say the least. GRRM sure has interesting priorities 

I don't think he is thinking of him over his sister, just that he thinks fondly of him, which I don't find odd or disturbing. I do find it a little unrealistic that none of the Stark kids think a whole lot about each other or their parents but I just chalk it up to them basically falling into one traumatizing situation after another & having to focus on surviving. 

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

I got confused for second and mistook the Purple wedding for Sansa & Tyrion's. Is there even a name for their wedding?

The “icky” wedding? The “yikes” wedding? Is there a colour for any of those?

5 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

For Jon to think of a guy who he only got know for a couple weeks over the little sister he has known his whole life is disturbing to say the least. GRRM sure has interesting priorities 

I could say something very anti Jonsa here, but I won’t.

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, Dot Com said:

 Wait, so are you saying Sandor and Jaime are anti-heroes, but Tyrion is not? This is just inconsistent. Both Jaime and Sandor have killed and/or terrorized others "just for the sake of hurting, personal pleasure, or revenge." Jaime was going to kill Arya just because Cersei told him to. He ordered Jory killed out of revenge for Tyrion's kidnapping, even though he had nothing to do with it. Sandor reiterated multiple times that he took pleasure from killing people. 

For the record, I think all three are anti-heroes. But it doesn't make sense to classify Jaime and Sandor as anti-heroes and Tyrion as a villain. He's probably the lightest grey of the bunch, and had a more tortured upbringing to boot. 

Well Jon thinks Tyrion is a good guy, so perhaps he thought a marriage to him was the best option that would reasonably be available to a hostage.  

Jaime and Sandor are bad men who know they are bad men. Both have a good amount of self-hatred and cynicism and use sarcasm as a defence mechanism. Tyrion is actually the opposite. He thinks he’s GOOD, and it’s all the evil people everywhere who are to blame for all the evils of the world and all the bad things that have happened to him. He lies to himself constantly... and his lies are half-arsed excuses, but they serve him good b/c they enable him to do whatever; “I’m going to rape Cersei!” - and it’s Cersei’s fault b/c she was so mean to him, always! And a shitload of other examples, but dinner time now. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

35 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

That is your opinion. IMO hurting, killing and terrorizing others (often completely innocent powerless people, far beneath him in status) just for the sake of hurting, personal pleasure or revenge is what villains do, not anti-heroes. 

As horrible as the Hound and Jaime are at least there was a reason they killed/tried to kill a child. Tyrion hurt and killed even though that had zero positive impact on his life at all, just basically because he could, he felt hurt himself so he just took it out on others.

Also GRRM has called him a villain himself, not an anti-hero. And he gets compared to Tywin, who is clearly a villain.

Sandor kills countless, including people who never did him any wrong, he clearly is an anti-hero

Tyrion kills one person who utterly betrayed him, this guy is a villain, hope he rots in hell.

What can I say logic 101

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Both have a good amount of self-hatred and cynicism and use sarcasm as a defence mechanism.

And Sandor kills people just for shits and giggles, without even sharing anything with them. There is no way Sandor is better then Tyrion

[Dot Com]

19 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Jaime and Sandor are bad men who know they are bad men. Both have a good amount of self-hatred and cynicism and use sarcasm as a defence mechanism. Tyrion is actually the opposite. He thinks he’s GOOD, and it’s all the evil people everywhere who are to blame for all the evils of the world and all the bad things that have happened to him. He lies to himself constantly... and his lies are half-arsed excuses, but they serve him good b/c they enable him to do whatever; “I’m going to rape Cersei!” - and it’s Cersei’s fault b/c she was so mean to him, always! And a shitload of other examples, but dinner time now. 

Tyrion absolutely does not think of himself as good! His whole arc in ADWD is embracing being a monster. Also Cersei was more than a little mean to him ... she abused him for his entire life and then tried to kill him. Her hatred of Tyrion basically sparked a dwarf genocide in Westeros. Sure, thinking (just thinking, mind you, not doing) about raping Cersei is bad but in context it just seems like a coping mechanism.  

[kissdbyfire]

22 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Sandor kills countless, including people who never did him any wrong, he clearly is an anti-hero

Tyrion kills one person who utterly betrayed him, this guy is a villain, hope he rots in hell.

What can I say logic 101

And Sandor kills people just for shits and giggles, without even sharing anything with them. There is no way Sandor is better then Tyrion

I’ll take 10 Sandors, please. And ZERO Tyrions. Thank you,

[Nagini's Neville]

2 minutes ago, Dot Com said:

 Wait, so are you saying Sandor and Jaime are anti-heroes, but Tyrion is not?

I never said that. I find anti-heroes an inconsistent cliché concept anyway. 

[Nagini's Neville]

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Sandor kills countless, including people who never did him any wrong, he clearly is an anti-hero

Tyrion kills one person who utterly betrayed him, this guy is a villain, hope he rots in hell.

What can I say logic 101

I've never called Sandor an anti-hero at all. I don't believe in anti-heroes. Stupid romanticized concept IMO. 

As for the rest what @kissdbyfire said in #253

Tyrion also has killed hundreds of people during the BOTW through his orders and we don't know how many ppl Sandor has killed at all or under which circumstances. And least he is honest to himself and others and isn't into raping or torturing, at least there is no evidence for it. But I acknowledge, that that is just a personal, subjective opinion.

Also by him keeping looking out for Arya, his words before he "dies" and the elder brother words it clearly shows, that he is on the way to better himself, while Tyrion is getting darker and darker.

For the record I don't think the Hound is a good guy either.

Also Shae didn't betray Tyrion, she owed him nothing at all. There was an honest transaction between them. Nothing more. And Tyrion always was aware of that and even, made sure it stayed that way.

" “I killed Shae too,” he confessed to Varys. “You knew what she was.” “I did. But I never knew what he was.” "

Dance With Dragons, Tyrion 1

Here he even admits he killed Shae more for finding out about his father, than about Shae. Because there was really nothing to find out about Shae, that he didn't knew right from the start.

If anything Tyrion betrayed Shae from the start by not telling her, that she would be risking her life working for him. She had a right to know that and choose for herself.

That he was willing to risk a human life just to satisfy his own needs, shows clearly how many fucks he gives about Shae or girls like her and how much she "owes" him.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

8 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

And Sandor kills people just for shits and giggles, without even sharing anything with them. There is no way Sandor is better then Tyrion

Provide some evidence for that please! When does he ever kill anyone just for shits and giggles?

[winter daughter]

 

3 hours ago, corbon said:

My god, he's so evil!

Not evil imo but not a saint either. He didn't rape or abuse her but it doesn't change the fact that he accepted his father's offer to marry a child hostage in an act of war against her family.

3 hours ago, corbon said:

Don't forget, he's not finished.
He wants to be as tall as Jaime.
He wants to be as strong as the Mountain.

Lets condemn his whol-y evil feelings for things he knows he can't have.

But unlike height and strength he thought he could've had Sansa and Winterfell and that's why he agreed to that sham of a marriage in the first place. he just did not expect his very timid and dutiful child bride to reject him the way she did so he kept it in his pants because after all he was not a rapist.

3 hours ago, corbon said:

Don't forget to ignore his actual actions, because facts that don't fit with the narrative are not acceptable. 

Accepting the marriage offer is also one of his actual actions but from what I've seen you try to downplay it.

***

Tbh I was hesitant to reply to you since this topic has already been beaten to death in another thread and also too much sarcasm is usually a turn-off for me but I thought I should give my opinion about this since I was one of the posters that provided the quote.