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Alyn Oakenfist

Unconventional opinions dumpsterfire of a thread

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  1. Bowen Marsh is one of the unsung heroes in this story.  He did the right thing in killing Jon Snow.  It will be too late though.  The wildlings will still raid the Boltons and create more chaos in the north.  But still, Bowen was able to keep the Watch from getting involved on a raid against folks they took an oath to protect.
  2. Cersei versus Catelyn.  It has always been between these two.  They will meet again and who knows who wins.  Probably Cersei.  She needs to live long enough for Daenerys to cast her down.  Daenerys is the younger, more beautiful queen.
  3. Rickon, Jon, and Arya will live as their direwolves before the end of this story.  They will die and use their warg skills to live as wolves.  This won't happen until the last book.  Jon, in the meantime, will come back as an ice wight. 
  4. Barristan and Victarion will die in Slaver's Bay.
  5. Penny will become one of the hand maidens to Daenerys.
  6. Daenerys will take control of the Dothraki people and use them to fight slavery. 
  7. Samwell will finish his studies and become a full maester before the end of tWoW.
  8. Tyrion and his sellsword friends will make it back to Westeros.  He basically signed away all of the Lannister wealth. 
  9. Jaime will not get his redemption.  He will continue to support Cersei and die in the last book.
  10. Bran and Arya will become darker.  Arya will go full dark and continue her murdering ways until the Freys kill her near the twins.
  11. Summer will die.  Jojen and Meera will die too.  Bran will get lonely and refuse to stay in the cave.  He wants to go back to Winterhell.  He will use his power to serve the Starks instead of the realm.  Revenge, in other words.  This and Jon's fuckup at the wall will be the main causes of the humans losing the battle in Westeros. 
  12. The frozen corpses underneath Winterfell will get reanimated by the Others.  They will lead the armies of ice wights against the living. 
  13. Slavery will stop in most parts of Essos. 
  14. Quaithe is Elissa Farman and yes, she wants Daenerys to go east instead of west.  She wants Daenerys to make her arrival at the western side of Westeros. 
  15. Asha Greyjoy will take down her uncle Euron. 
  16. Ice-Wight Jon will battle Ramsay Bolton and win.  Stannis died on the battle for winterfell. 
  17. Daenerys will arrive in Westeros on its west side late in the last book.  Casterly Rock or the Iron Islands will be the landing point. 
  18. Oldtown will be destroyed by the iron born before Asha can take down uncle Euron.  The maesters will be fed to the Drowned God. 

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52 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I don't really think his story is about redemption. I think it's about how he deals with his own actions and failures. He's not a bad man, he's just seen as such by many, and his ark is about coming to grips with that Kingslayer persona.

Him killing Aerys was probably his most noble act, if only he would have done it earlier.

While pushing Bran out of the window was a very dick move, what did you want him to do. Go to Robert and say, yes Robert, I'm fucking my sister, your wife and all your children are mine. It was either Bran or him and Cersei.

As for threatening to kill Edmure's child he is clearly bluffing here, as can be seen by his POV. It's one of his better character moments, when he uses his Kingslayer image in his favor, as people consider him completely amoral and capable of anything.

His only real flaws lie in his relationship with Cersei (and the narcissism from which it derives), something he's clearly decided to put behind him.

Oh I agree. I was just trying to clarify that what I've seen argued is that Jaime is on a redemption arc, not that he has been redeemed. I've seen a couple times in this thread people talk about how horrible he is & I guess I just think that's unfounded & not based in the reality of the text. 

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41 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

One point I believe I'm "unconventional" is in thinking Jaime is Cersei's victim. She dominated him. She schemed for him to be KG. She killed a girl who wanted to marry him. How many others did she deter? She ruined his life.

I mostly agree but I think Jaime holds some responsibility too. He allowed himself to be manipulated by Cersei right? 

 

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49 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Who exactly disagrees with these ones?

Ha! More people than you would think. I see it argued often that Dany's war is unjustified & that she is pretty much evil personified. 

 

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50 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Again, who disagrees with this one?

Have you not seen the threads dedicated solely to stating the Starks are evil/bad or the Targaryens are evil/bad, the Freys are evil/bad, the Wildlings, the clansmen, the Dothraki, etc. 

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44 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

. I hate all the Sansa and Dany debates. Like HATE with a passion. It's like there's a bat signal attached to these two where every stan descends on you for daring to have a different opinion. I love both characters, but the stans make me hate them

Right, I think in general it's not fair to be jumped all over for having a different opinion about anything but especially over a fictional character in a book. 

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23 minutes ago, Mon ami said:

Bowen Marsh is one of the unsung heroes in this story.  He did the right thing in killing Jon Snow.  It will be too late though.  The wildlings will still raid the Boltons and create more chaos in the north.  But still, Bowen was able to keep the Watch from getting involved on a raid against folks they took an oath to protect

Doesn't the fact that the NW were not going to participate in a raid against the realm, coupled with the rest of what you propose mean that Bowen's actions were essentially for nothing, accomplished nothing, & thus mean he is the opposite of a hero? 

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Ha! More people than you would think. I see it argued often that Dany's war is unjustified & that she is pretty much evil personified. 

How? Like don't get me wrong there's plenty wrong with her wars, from her sometimes indiscriminate justice that's more revenge then justice, to her rulership of Mereen being plenty flawed, but evil and unjustified? Really? There are very few thing in the world worse the slavery, maybe only genocide and the shit Ramsay does, so how could a campaign against that be unjustified?

33 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Have you not seen the threads dedicated solely to stating the Starks are evil/bad or the Targaryens are evil/bad, the Freys are evil/bad, the Wildlings, the clansmen, the Dothraki, etc. 

Ok, the last ones make some sense (not really, we've seen that not all Frey's are evil there are plenty good, and with those 3 peoples at the end there is plenty bad, but not really with the people, but rather with their cultural values and actions) but with the Starks and Targaryens what can you say. They had their goods and bads, but the Targaryen unification of Westeros put a stop to centuries of constant warfare (as for the people that say that Targs have wars too, they have significant wars incredibly rarely, not constantly like pre conquest Westeros), while the Starks were the only Kings to put the kingdom before their pride (the Arryns don't count, they did it out of fear for themselves not for their people)

28 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Doesn't the fact that the NW were not going to participate in a raid against the realm, coupled with the rest of what you propose mean that Bowen's actions were essentially for nothing, accomplished nothing, & thus mean he is the opposite of a hero? 

He's not a villain though. I think he's very similar to Jon in that he's a man who finds himself at a point were his vows seem to contradict, and at the end does what he feels is better overall. The difference between him and Jon is only in Bowen's strong prejudice against wildlings, which can be understood given that he was nearly killed by them. They're also very similar in that they are both very pragmatic, with little delusions about either the Watch or the wildlings.

Edited by Alyn Oakenfist

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1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

As for threatening to kill Edmure's child he is clearly bluffing here, as can be seen by his POV. It's one of his better character moments, when he uses his Kingslayer image in his favor, as people consider him completely amoral and capable of anything.

He is meaning every damn thing he says tho. He had just said that you must be ready to carey your words with actions. 

 

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

While pushing Bran out of the window was a very dick move, what did you want him to do. Go to Robert and say, yes Robert, I'm fucking my sister, your wife and all your children are mine. It was either Bran or him and Cersei.

Sure, and it's understandable if that act makes him completely and utterly irredeemable, if you put yourself into a situation you have to kill a 8 year old because you're a complete imbecilw who can't think with anything but your dick... Is your damn fault. It would've been more ¿morally ok? if he wanted to protect his own children... But AGOT Jaime clearly didn't give a damn.

 

 

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

. Tywin would not have murdered Elia and the royal children without getting the green light from at least some of the rebels.    Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, and Robert Baratheon knew damn well they weren't just going after Aerys and Rhaegar, even if Ned thought those two were the only targets.

Maybe the rebels were going kill them but Tywin couldn't have received a green light  unless he received a super  raven.

 

 

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

They more then likely knew they had to die (hard to say if Jon Arryn too, but Robert and Hoster clearly), but given the time span and how Tywin desperately rushed KL, without time for anybody to find out his goal, I don't think he was told to do it. He just knew that it had to be done, and that Robert would be more then grateful to him for doing it.

They didn't have to die tho, just to be controled. But my pet peeve  here is that Hoster is considered a Tywin esque figure capable for no good reason really. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Mon ami said:
  1. Bowen Marsh is one of the unsung heroes in this story.  He did the right thing in killing Jon Snow.  It will be too late though.  The wildlings will still raid the Boltons and create more chaos in the north.  But still, Bowen was able to keep the Watch from getting involved on a raid against folks they took an oath to protect.
  2. Cersei versus Catelyn.  It has always been between these two.  They will meet again and who knows who wins.  Probably Cersei.  She needs to live long enough for Daenerys to cast her down.  Daenerys is the younger, more beautiful queen.
  3. Rickon, Jon, and Arya will live as their direwolves before the end of this story.  They will die and use their warg skills to live as wolves.  This won't happen until the last book.  Jon, in the meantime, will come back as an ice wight. 
  4. Barristan and Victarion will die in Slaver's Bay.
  5. Penny will become one of the hand maidens to Daenerys.
  6. Daenerys will take control of the Dothraki people and use them to fight slavery. 
  7. Samwell will finish his studies and become a full maester before the end of tWoW.
  8. Tyrion and his sellsword friends will make it back to Westeros.  He basically signed away all of the Lannister wealth. 
  9. Jaime will not get his redemption.  He will continue to support Cersei and die in the last book.
  10. Bran and Arya will become darker.  Arya will go full dark and continue her murdering ways until the Freys kill her near the twins.
  11. Summer will die.  Jojen and Meera will die too.  Bran will get lonely and refuse to stay in the cave.  He wants to go back to Winterhell.  He will use his power to serve the Starks instead of the realm.  Revenge, in other words.  This and Jon's fuckup at the wall will be the main causes of the humans losing the battle in Westeros. 
  12. The frozen corpses underneath Winterfell will get reanimated by the Others.  They will lead the armies of ice wights against the living. 
  13. Slavery will stop in most parts of Essos. 
  14. Quaithe is Elissa Farman and yes, she wants Daenerys to go east instead of west.  She wants Daenerys to make her arrival at the western side of Westeros. 
  15. Asha Greyjoy will take down her uncle Euron. 
  16. Ice-Wight Jon will battle Ramsay Bolton and win.  Stannis died on the battle for winterfell. 
  17. Daenerys will arrive in Westeros on its west side late in the last book.  Casterly Rock or the Iron Islands will be the landing point. 
  18. Oldtown will be destroyed by the iron born before Asha can take down uncle Euron.  The maesters will be fed to the Drowned God. 

 

40 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Doesn't the fact that the NW were not going to participate in a raid against the realm, coupled with the rest of what you propose mean that Bowen's actions were essentially for nothing, accomplished nothing, & thus mean he is the opposite of a hero? 

It's clear to me.  The participation of the Lord Commander is NW participation.  Jon was dragging the NW into his own personal problem.  Which he should not have had to start with.  Arya was no longer his concern.  There should have been nothing personal between Jon and Ramsay.  Jon cannot separate himself from the NW.  He would have involved the NW if he had been on the attacking party.

Bowen a hero?  In a way, he is.  Jon was the one who was wrong in that disagreement.  

 

  1. The climate change will last a long time.  The red comet affects the climate.  Plant life will go dormant but the seeds will be preserved to sprout again when the ice recedes.  
  2. Daenerys will not go to Westeros.
  3. Houses Hightower and Tyrell will fall to Euron's ironborn.  Tarly will fight Euron on land and drive him back to his ships.  Team Asha and a reformed Theon will battle Euron in the greatest sea battle since Blackwater.  
  4. The bodies of the NK and NQ are preserved in the crypts.  The Starks carry their DNA.  
  5. Robb Stark's head is sewn on Ser Robert's body.  
  6. I am giving Archmaester Marwyn a 50 percent chance of making it to Daenerys.  The voyage is dangerous after all.  Martin loves to disappoint.  
  7. The WWs will make it to Storm's End and the Reach.  Food supply will be threatened even in the south.  
  8. Sansa will never outsmart Petyr Baelish.  I'm not even sure if she will try.  She has thrown in with Petyr.
  9. Tyrion will fall in love with Daenerys and find redemption.  He will finally know what it is like to serve a cause greater than himself.  The little drunk will give up the wine.  
  10. Many in Westeros who can will migrate to Essos to escape the WWs.  The nobles will stay with their precious castles and die in their castles.  Including Jaime, Walder, Petyr Baelish, Sansa.  Petyr's grain will rot.  
  11. The red comet will come again and change the climate back to normal.  It is not due to human sacrifice but rather just a function of a long cycle.  There will be a time when science and magic will work together to prevent the sins of the past from repeating.  
  12. Daenerys Targaryen and Jon Snow will never meet in human form.  Glass candles can make communication happen.  I am assuming Jon will be revived by the WWs and maintain some of his humanity.  Some truce can be negotiated.  Maybe the WWs get to keep some of the north in return.
Edited by Damsel in Distress

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• Tyrion is a bad guy.

• I don’t mind reading the Greyjoys chapters.

• I like Asha, she is one of the few women who are warriors and sexually free. She’s cool, but I wonder if she’s doomed like Ygritte or Oberyn. Anyway, I don’t think she will become Queen (although I’d like her to).

 

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43 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

How? Like don't get me wrong there's plenty wrong with her wars, from her sometimes indiscriminate justice that's more revenge then justice, to her rulership of Mereen being plenty flawed, but evil and unjustified? Really? There are very few thing in the world worse the slavery, maybe only genocide and the shit Ramsay does, so how could a campaign against that be unjustified

Oh I agree. The argument is not well founded but people say it anyway. 

44 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Ok, the last ones make some sense (not really, we've seen that not all Frey's are evil there are plenty good, and with those 3 peoples at the end there is plenty bad, but not really with the people, but rather with their cultural values and actions) but with the Starks and Targaryens what can you say. They had their goods and bads, but the Targaryen unification of Westeros put a stop to centuries of constant warfare (as for the people that say that Targs have wars too, they have significant wars incredibly rarely, not constantly like pre conquest Westeros), while the Starks were the only Kings to put the kingdom before their pride (the Arryns don't count, they did it out of fear for themselves not for their people

I agree 

44 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

He's not a villain though. I think he's very similar to Jon in that he's a man who finds himself at a point were his vows seem to contradict, and at the end does what he feels is better overall. The difference between him and Jon is only in Bowen's strong prejudice against wildlings, which can be understood given that he was nearly killed by them. They're also very similar in that they are both very pragmatic, with little delusions about either the Watch or the wildlings

Sure, I don't think he is necessarily a villain. But not a hero either. 

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34 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

It's clear to me.  The participation of the Lord Commander is NW participation

IMO to say an entire group is participating in something there needs to be more than one person in that group participating. 

35 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Jon was dragging the NW into his own personal problem.

Again, to be 'dragging the NW' into it, wouldn't there need to be more than just Jon participating from the NW? 

Secondly, how would this constitute a personal problem when this is a direct reaction to a letter in which Ramsay threatens Jon, the NW, other people present at the wall, & a few people not present at the wall. 

39 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Arya was no longer his concern.  There should have been nothing personal between Jon and Ramsay.  Jon cannot separate himself from the NW.  He would have involved the NW if he had been on the attacking party.

I suggest you do a reread asap. Or perhaps you could show me where in the text it's stated or even implied that the decision of Jon's to march against Ramsay has one single iota to do with Arya? 

I'm sorry I don't mean to derail the thread but this nonsense is spewed across the forum & when confronted, typically there is no response. I would assume that is because there is no textual evidence to back it, but knowing that one would think it wouldn't be repeated over & over. 

If the leader of the women's march gets caught drinking & driving can we then, in good faith, say the entire women's march participate in drinking & driving?

If the president of the US gathers an army of some foreign nation & proceeds to march against the US can it be said the US army is participating in this? 

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1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

How? Like don't get me wrong there's plenty wrong with her wars, from her sometimes indiscriminate justice that's more revenge then justice, to her rulership of Mereen being plenty flawed, but evil and unjustified? Really? There are very few thing in the world worse the slavery, maybe only genocide and the shit Ramsay does, so how could a campaign against that be unjustified?

It's a minority, but certainly a vocal one, that will argue that slavery is not worth fighting;. That it's their culture/way of life;. That the economy depends on it;. That fighting slavery makes you an imperialist/colonialist/white saviour.  That most of the Ghiscari elite had nothing to do with slavery, but were butchered regardless.

That minority probably includes Dumb and Dumber.  You can see why nobody wished to touch Confederate.

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So there is this guy, he is an officer or something, in the army or something. He has this 12 year old sister, who has been married without his knowledge to the worst sadist and rapist there is. He thinks he can find a way to help her, while not not hurting his army or something. Do people really believe he made a mistake by trying to save his sister? especially since he finds a way, where he thinks no one will be at a disadvantage because of it. Is it better then to just get rid of your own brain and morals and heart, never think for yourself and follow orders and duty like a brain-dead zombie? Were the KG supposed to just chill outside the door, while listening to Rhella's screams of pure agony, probably not dissimilar from jeyne poole's screams of agony.

Trying to save a young girl from never-ending torture is a sign of having a good heart and right moral compass of being a decent moral human being with empathy. And that that's portrayed as something wrong is unfathomable to me.

I'd say, if you don't wanna save your own sister from such an awful fate, especially if you see a way to do that without hurting others, there is quite frankly something wrong with you.

And also what would you do if it was your sibling? 

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3 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

So there is this guy, he is an officer or something, in the army or something. He has this 12 year old sister, who has been married without his knowledge to the worst sadist and rapist there is. He thinks he can find a way to help her, while not not hurting his army or something. Do people really believe he made a mistake by trying to save his sister? especially since he finds a way, where he thinks no one will be at a disadvantage because of it. Is it better then to just get rid of your own brain and morals and heart, never think for yourself and follow orders and duty like a brain-dead zombie? Were the KG supposed to just chill outside the door, while listening to Rhella's screams of pure agony, probably not dissimilar from jeyne poole's screams of agony.

Trying to save a young girl from never-ending torture is a sign of having a good heart and right moral compass of being a decent moral human being with empathy. And that that's portrayed as something wrong is unfathomable to me.

I'd say, if you don't wanna save your own sister from such an awful fate, especially if you see a way to do that without hurting others, there is quite frankly something wrong with you.

And also what would you do if it was your sibling? 

Yes, I think Martin really critiques the idea that inaction in the face of evil is the morally correct course of action.

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4 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

So there is this guy, he is an officer or something, in the army or something. He has this 12 year old sister, who has been married without his knowledge to the worst sadist and rapist there is. He thinks he can find a way to help her, while not not hurting his army or something. Do people really believe he made a mistake by trying to save his sister? especially since he finds a way, where he thinks no one will be at a disadvantage because of it. Is it better then to just get rid of your own brain and morals and heart, never think for yourself and follow orders and duty like a brain-dead zombie? Were the KG supposed to just chill outside the door, while listening to Rhella's screams of pure agony, probably not dissimilar from jeyne poole's screams of agony.

Trying to save a young girl from never-ending torture is a sign of having a good heart and right moral compass of being a decent moral human being with empathy. And that that's portrayed as something wrong is unfathomable to me.

I'd say, if you don't wanna save your own sister from such an awful fate, especially if you see a way to do that without hurting others, there is quite frankly something wrong with you.

And also what would you do if it was your sibling? 

I agree 100% 

If it were me, screw the oath, screw the NW, the whole realm be damned I would do what I could to help my sister. 

Jon does his best to keep his oath & help his sister but he does so under a legal premise after Ramsay threatens him & the NW. 

Regardless though, the argument that he shouldn't have because of his NW vows don't hold water with me. 

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3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I don't really think his story is about redemption. I think it's about how he deals with his own actions and failures. He's not a bad man, he's just seen as such by many, and his ark is about coming to grips with that Kingslayer persona.

 

He most certanly is a bad man.

Jaime abuse towards kids go to pushing Bran out of the tower, mocking him when he becomes crippled, trying to kill Arya, threatining Edmure's baby, he says himself that he only cares about Cersei, Tyrion and Tywin, but he wasn't capable of crying on Tywins funeral and felt nothing, he swears that he would kill Tyrion if they ever meet and he abandoned Cersei to her own luck in the end.

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

 Him killing Aerys was probably his most noble act, if only he would have done it earlier.

 

Jaime only killed Aerys when was safe. Tywin's men already had control over the Red Keep, Jaime just murdered a disarmed mad man,

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

 While pushing Bran out of the window was a very dick move, what did you want him to do. Go to Robert and say, yes Robert, I'm fucking my sister, your wife and all your children are mine. It was either Bran or him and Cersei.

The incest was already wrong, trying to murder a child to cover it up, only makes it worst, not better, even Cersei chastised him for that.

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

His only real flaws lie in his relationship with Cersei (and the narcissism from which it derives), something he's clearly decided to put behind him.

He has much more flaws than just this.

He always runs away from responsability, he blames the scorn he receives on the gods, then on the white cloak, than on Ned Stark, but never on himself.

He acts upon impulses, and not reason.

His relationship with Cersei was toxic from both sides, and Jaime knew all about Cersei's actions and still went to support her, not caring about murdering children, starting a major civil war or throwing everything into chaos.

Jaime has not tried to redeem himself, because he cannot even accept that what he did was wrong, we see on his chapters he bragging about banging Cersei to Payne.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

IMO to say an entire group is participating in something there needs to be more than one person in that group participating. 

It depends of the importance or role of that person in the society or  hierarchy. the actions of a child don't carry the same weight than those of an adult neither the actions of a king carry the same weight of the actions of a peasant and neither does the actions of the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

When Baelor went to Dorne alone, he was representing Westeros. Jon is representing the Wall and whether we like it or not, Jon was about to break a sacred rule. Quite the only rule, don't mess with the south. 

I don't think Jon deserved a knife in the heart for that and tbf Bowen shit and his pals were conspiring long before the idus but...

 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And also what would you do if it was your sibling? 

I would the exact same Jon did or worse, then again, i'd deserve the heat Jon gets or worse. I understand Jon, if my brothers were in that situation i'd say fuck it too. 

 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Trying to save a young girl from never-ending torture is a sign of having a good heart and right moral compass of being a decent moral human being with empathy. And that that's portrayed as something wrong is unfathomable to me.

It shouldn't. Jon shouldn't have taken oaths he was not ready to uphold, as simple as that, i'm quite sure that every single guy up there has family too, i'm pretty sure that every one of them has loved ones that were ravaged by war... If everyone of them did what Jon did, the Wall would crumble. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

So there is this guy, he is an officer or something, in the army or something. He has this 12 year old sister, who has been married without his knowledge to the worst sadist and rapist there is. He thinks he can find a way to help her, while not not hurting his army or something. Do people really believe he made a mistake by trying to save his sister? especially since he finds a way, where he thinks no one will be at a disadvantage because of it. Is it better then to just get rid of your own brain and morals and heart, never think for yourself and follow orders and duty like a brain-dead zombie? Were the KG supposed to just chill outside the door, while listening to Rhella's screams of pure agony, probably not dissimilar from jeyne poole's screams of agony.

Trying to save a young girl from never-ending torture is a sign of having a good heart and right moral compass of being a decent moral human being with empathy. And that that's portrayed as something wrong is unfathomable to me.

 I'd say, if you don't wanna save your own sister from such an awful fate, especially if you see a way to do that without hurting others, there is quite frankly something wrong with you.

Don't join then, i would simply never join an order that forced me to severe all my ties, for this exact reason. Again, i'd do the exact same Jon did... But what i wouldn't do is cry foul play when someone put me down. As harsh as it may sound, don't join the Kingsguard and don't join the Watch, because there is simply so much injustice going on there, if you still join and stand up to injustice, bravo, but that has its consequences.

And it's not ilke Jon wasn't warned,  both before joining and by Aemon and when he tries to flee to help Robb. He is warned of the same, "things may go south, that's past you now, not your business anymore, as hard as it may be". Jon was not the only one been warned, we also were.

 

“Jon, did you ever wonder why the men of the Night’s Watch take no wives and father no children?” Maester Aemon asked. Jon shrugged. “No.” He scattered more meat. The fingers of his left hand were slimy with blood, and his right throbbed from the weight of the bucket. “So they will not love,” the old man answered, “for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty.” [...] “Then Lord Eddard is a man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman’s love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms … or the memory of a brother’s smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.

 

 

“The men who formed the Night’s Watch knew that only their courage shielded the realm from the darkness to the north. They knew they must have no divided loyalties to weaken their resolve. So they vowed they would have no wives nor children. “Yet brothers they had, and sisters. Mothers who gave them birth, fathers who gave them names. They came from a hundred quarrelsome kingdoms, and they knew times may change, but men do not. So they pledged as well that the Night’s Watch would take no part in the battles of the realms it guarded. “They kept their pledge. When Aegon slew Black Harren and claimed his kingdom, Harren’s brother was Lord Commander on the Wall, with ten thousand swords to hand. He did not march. In the days when the Seven Kingdoms were seven kingdoms, not a generation passed that three or four of them were not at war. The Watch took no part. When the Andals crossed the narrow sea and swept away the kingdoms of the First Men, the sons of the fallen kings held true to their vows and remained at their posts. So it has always been, for years beyond counting. Such is the price of honor. “A craven can be as brave as any man, when there is nothing to fear. And we all do our duty, when there is no cost to it. How easy it seems then, to walk the path of honor. Yet soon or late in every man’s life comes a day when it is not easy, a day when he must choose.” Some of the ravens were still eating, long stringy bits of meat dangling from their beaks. The rest seemed to be watching him. Jon could feel the weight of all those tiny black eyes. “And this is my day … is that what you’re saying?” The old man laid a withered, spotted hand on his shoulder. “It hurts, boy,” he said softly. “Oh, yes. Choosing … it has always hurt. And always will. I know.” “You don’t know,” Jon said bitterly. “No one knows. Even if I am his bastard, he’s still my father …” Maester Aemon sighed. “Have you heard nothing I’ve told you, Jon? Do you think you are the first?” He shook his ancient head, a gesture weary beyond words. “Three times the gods saw fit to test my vows. Once when I was a boy, once in the fullness of my manhood, and once when I had grown old. By then my strength was fled, my eyes grown dim, yet that last choice was as cruel as the first. My ravens would bring the news from the south, words darker than their wings, the ruin of my House, the death of my kin, disgrace and desolation. What could I have done, old, blind, frail? I was helpless as a suckling babe, yet still it grieved me to sit forgotten as they cut down my brother’s poor grandson, and his son, and even the little children …”

 

When it came to Jon he chose time after time family and had to be deterred by force, he used loopholes with the Arya thing... But it was playing hot potatoe with a grenade.

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

It's a minority, but certainly a vocal one, that will argue that slavery is not worth fighting;. That it's their culture/way of life;. That the economy depends on it;. That fighting slavery makes you an imperialist/colonialist/white saviour.  That most of the Ghiscari elite had nothing to do with slavery, but were butchered regardless.

That minority probably includes Dumb and Dumber.  You can see why nobody wished to touch Confederate.

For a moment i thought you were sharing this opinion. I was about to rant real hard.:P

 

 

59 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Jon does his best to keep his oath & help his sister but he does so under a legal premise after Ramsay threatens him & the NW. 

Ramsay threatens him on the premise that he has his wife and so on.

I want my bride back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want this wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.

That's what Ramsay says, Jon should've written him and said that he does not have his bride and that the Watch does car abouy Westeros petty wars. He should've gone to Winterfell as en envoy, all that before marching with an army at his back, that should be the last resort. And IIRC he also sent someone to warn Stannis about the Karstark betrayal.

 

Should not derailed the thread but wanted to give my opinion, but Jon's acr is utterly boring to me so, it's not  a hill i'm going to die on.

Edited by frenin

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