Heresy 231 Alienarea Strikes Again

[LynnS]

14 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

#3 - is Bran more so than Ghost. When Bran comes to Jon in his dream, he opens his third eye. I know this is a bone of contention with several heretics, but the dream starts out with Jon dreaming that he is Ghost, howling for his siblings, but after Bran touches his forehead, he sees the wildling camp through Ghost's eyes. So I'm revising my opinion to call the direwolves "companions", but warging and seeing through the third eye is "magic".

I have to get back to you later.  I have to get my feet up for a while..

[Melifeather]

We can do this again with Bran and Arya:

In the beginning there is the status quo. Then:

1) a call to adventure - bargain w/o knowing -

     Bran climbs the tower, gets pushed and goes into a coma. 

     Arya climbs the statue of Baelor the Blessed and sees her father beheaded. Prior to Yoren, she had escaped capture by living on the streets.

2) refusal of the call

    Bran tells the Three Eyed Crow that he cannot fly

    Arya refuses the traditional role assigned women. She takes sword lessons and learns how to wield Needle. She allows Yoren to cut her hair and pretends to be a boy.

3) supernatural aid - meet the mentor

    Bran learns to fly and sees all of Westeros and where his various family members are and what they are about to face. 

    Arya meets Jaqen H'ghar

4) crossing the first threshold - the 1st part of the adventure. 

    Bran meets Meera and Jojen who teach him about skinchanging and his connection to Summer.

    Arya travels with Yoren, meets Gendry, Hot Pie, and Lommy.

5) belly of the whale - a metamorphosis. A minor danger or setback.

    Bran, Rickon, Meera, Jojen, Hodor, and Osha hide in the crypts while Theon and Reek kill the miller's sons, then Reek reveals himself as Ramsay and destroys Winterfell. Bran learns to open his third eye. After coming out of the crypts they find Maester Luwin dying under the heart tree.

    Arya and Yoren's group are attacked by Armory Lorch and his men. Arya frees Jaqen, Biter, and Rorge. She escapes the fighting and the fire by going down a tunnel (a rebirth of a kind) and comes out by the shore of the Gods Eye. They are later recaptured by the Tickler, Rafford, and Poliver and held for eight days. Arya is reassigned as cupbearer to Tywin Lannister.

6) Initiation. The road of trials. 

    Bran and Rickon split up. Rickon goes with Osha, and Bran goes with Meera and Jojen to find the Three Eyed Crow.

    Arya extracts three deaths from Jaqen, plots the Weasel Soup to free the Northmen, and later frees herself, Gendry, and Hot Pie, only to be captured again by Sandor Clegane.

7) the meeting with the goddess. Receives items that will help him in future.

    Bran, Meera, and Jojen meet with "the Liddle". The meeting with Sam and Gilly and later Coldhands could also be part of the meeting with "the goddess" or in this instance a "god-like" creature.

    Arya receives the coin from Jaqen before being recaptured by Sandor. Another "god-like" creature rather than goddess.

8) the woman as temptress. The hero faces physical temptations.

    Bran develops a crush on Meera.

    Arya learns to like Sandor.

9) atonement with a father figure or entity with life or death power.

    Bran meets Bloodraven.

    Arya meets the Kindly Man.

10) apotheosis. Greater understanding is achieved.

    Bran - the Children and Bloodraven explain how to see through the weirwoods.

    Arya  - learns about Faceless Men.

11) the ultimate boon or reward.

    Bran eats the weirwood paste and is given his own weirwood throne. 

    Arya becomes an acolyte and is being trained to be a Faceless Man.

12) the return, and in many cases a refusal to return to an ordinary world to bring the ultimate reward back to the masses. - TBD

13) the magic flight. Sometimes the hero has to use magic to escape in order to bring the ultimate boon to the ordinary world.- TBD

14) rescue from without. Sometimes the hero needs help from some friend or outsider to escape, especially if wounded or weakened. - TBD

15) the crossing of the return threshold. The hero finds it difficult to return to ordinary. - TBD

16) master of two worlds. The hero achieves balance between material and spiritual. - TBD

17) mastery leads to a freedom from the fear of death. Living in the moment without worrying about the future or the past. - TBD

[dialt]

I think that the hero's journey can be applied to most of our characters.

Bran, Dany, Arya etc...  Especially because the path doesn't have to follow precisely that scheme. Some things may come in a differente sequence. There are in short few variations. Altrough each act has to reach its apex.

The main difference between ASoIaF and other works of fiction is precisely that.

At the same time, just because George in all evenidence knows about that book, the idea of , in-universe different religions/myths/traditions revolving around the same basic concepts became a theme itself.

 

[Lady Dyanna]

I agree with @lalt. I think that every single POV character, and possibly some of the minor ones have all been shown to be following their own hero’s journey. What might be almost interesting to do would be to turn the lens around to use it to look at the in world mythology. Especially to look at the differences between the songs and written histories. The songs are more likely to change based on the whims of the populace. 

[alienarea]

But isn't the hero's journey the biggest trope of all?

I would prefer a main character not following that journey, just being an average person with flaws, and then saving the day because he/she could. His/her fifteen minutes of fame.

[Lady Dyanna]

7 hours ago, alienarea said:

But isn't the hero's journey the biggest trope of all?

I would prefer a main character not following that journey, just being an average person with flaws, and then saving the day because he/she could. His/her fifteen minutes of fame.

Why can’t it be both? 
 

ETA: Honestly I just thought it (the Netflix program) was a cool TV series. The first episode dealt with mythology and how it was shaped by both oral tradition and the heroes journey. But each subsequent episode seems to hit on a different influence. The next couple episodes seemed to touch on how the tradition and events of the time shaped mythology. The next I believe is about war with a focus on the Trojan war. Then there’s one on Love traditions and so on. 

[alienarea]

3 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Why can’t it be both? 
 

ETA: Honestly I just thought it (the Netflix program) was a cool TV series. The first episode dealt with mythology and how it was shaped by both oral tradition and the heroes journey. But each subsequent episode seems to hit on a different influence. The next couple episodes seemed to touch on how the tradition and events of the time shaped mythology. The next I believe is about war with a focus on the Trojan war. Then there’s one on Love traditions and so on. 

I grew up reading a lot of hero stories, first the classic Greek ones like Jason, Heracles, Troy and Ulysses, than the German ones, later the Nordic ones ...

It gets repetitive. 

 

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, alienarea said:

I grew up reading a lot of hero stories, first the classic Greek ones like Jason, Heracles, Troy and Ulysses, than the German ones, later the Nordic ones ...

It gets repetitive. 

We could probably do the hero's journey for a number of characters.  The link to the summary also qualifies what happens to the hero  when they fail or reject any of these stages.  Theon comes to mind.  It would get old quickly though.

As for the OP, I don't really have much more to say at this point.  There is the question of whether Jon will still think himself a man of the watch once he is resurrected.  You can only leave the NW by shuffling off the mortal coil.  So that could open  up some possibilities. I'm very suspicious of Mel because even though she knew about the assassination plot; she didn't really try very hard to stop it.  So what are her motivations in allowing that to continue? 

[Lady Dyanna]

2 hours ago, alienarea said:

It gets repetitive. 

Um..... I’m not sure which part of any of this isn’t by this point, but I’d definitely recommend skipping the TV show then. 

[LynnS]

20 hours ago, alienarea said:

It gets repetitive. 

Where do you want to go from here?  

[LynnS]

This is a post I made on the general forum.  Does anyone want to discuss it?

I'm satisfied that fAegon is the real Aegon.  I don't think he's a Blackfyre or a substitute from Lys. I'm not fully satisfied with RLJ.  Rhaegar thought Aegon was the PWIP, so why continue to produce another who would fit that prophecy? I'm not sure what Rhaegar meant in Dany's vision when he said the dragon has three heads, there must be one more.  

Aemon seems to think that he must be one of the heads of the dragon to show her the way. This theme of finding the path or the way is predominant in Dany's POV's. She enters the HoU to learn the truth, to be shown the way.

So I surmise that the two of the heads are the father, who provides protection, the mother who provides nurturing and the third head is the teacher, who provides wisdom.  The wisdom to know how to use the power she is given (dragons) and how to govern.  Aegon has been given three heads, while Dany is on her own.

 Aemon seems to think Dany is proof of some prophecy because she has hatched dragon eggs.  It may be that the one who wakes the dragon is also the PWIP and this is something that Rhaegar  thought his son would accomplish.  It seems a female Targ is needed for that to happen, to become the mother of dragons.  As Aemon says the problem was in the translation.  The Targs seem to have lost the knowledge for waking dragons from stone  but the words 'wake the dragon' remain in their lexicon.  Others in her family tree have had the dragon dreams eventually going mad.

So what does the PWIP prophecy have to do with a second coming of Azor Ahai?  Was AA a dragon rider? Are dragons metaphorical swords?  I'm not sure they are the same thing.

All the business around Jon having Targ blood as a necessity for fulfilling one or both of these prophecies seems a bit like a kluge.  I don't see him being either.  If he must have Targ blood then there are only three options;  Rhaegar, Aerys and Robert.  We know all the arguments for Rhaegar but none of the argument for Aerys.  It seems just as likely to me that he would want to get his hands on her given his disposition towards the Starks.  She disappears around the same time as Brandon and Rickard are summoned to KL.  Her disappearance is a blank.  Celebrity and romance have more appeal.  Ned says Lyanna deserved better than a butcher.  

As for Robert, who has only a little Targ blood in his ancestry; I maintain that it isn't the Targ blood that is important in Jon's story, but his Stark blood.  As for Lyanna not wanting Robert; she does have a little of the wolf blood.  Ned tells us  that both Brandon and Lyanna had the wolf blood and it was the end of them both.  In Brandon's case he was hot tempered and prone to lust.  GRRM tells us he may have left a few bastards in the North.  Lyanna  was also hot tempered when provoked and she may have given into her lusty teenage hormones when it came to Robert.  Ned thinks of Robert in his youth as so attractive and handsome, that all the maids swooned over him.  Lyanna might have caved, her wolf blood getting the better of her.

The argument against is that Jon doesn't have black hair and blue eyes and we are led to believe that all Baratheon bastards have this genetic characteristic.  Maggy the Frog also tells Cersei that her husband will produce 16 bastards.  Where are they and why haven't they all been identified?  Varys keeps track of these things.  Nine bastards are unknown.  Could it be that they don't have black hair and blue eyes?   Or that it's only the blue-eyed black-haired bastards that are useful to anyone playing the game of thrones?

Anyway, I'm not invested in any of these choices but I don't see the necessity for Targ blood where Jon is concerned.  I don't think he is the PWIP or AA.  I think he will be something else altogether.

ETA:  I would also say that the Targ bloodline is associated with the fiery side of the equation and Aegon and Dany fit that bill.  IF, Robert is Jon's father; that ties him to the storm kings and that bloodline going back to the Gardner Kings.  It also ties Jon to Storm's End and Bran the Builder. As Robert and Lyanna's bastard he would be Jon Snow-Storm.   

 

[Melifeather]

I think Rhaegar was wrong that HIS child was the PtwP. Daenerys is the third head. She, Viserys, and Rhaegar are the three children of Aerys and Rhaella. The culmination of the prophecy results in dragons being successfully returned to the Targaryen family. Daenerys did that.

[LynnS]

54 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I think Rhaegar was wrong that HIS child was the PtwP. Daenerys is the third head. She, Viserys, and Rhaegar are the three children of Aerys and Rhaella. The culmination of the prophecy results in dragons being successfully returned to the Targaryen family. Daenerys did that.

True Aegon does not wake dragons from stone.  Rhaegar first thought he was the pwip, but changed his mind when a comet didn't appear at his birth.  I'm guessing he thinks Aegon is the one because a comet did appeared at this birth.  Of course, who could miss the red comet appearing on Dany's rebirth.  Aemon says as much, that the hatching of dragons is proof that Dany is the pwip.  I'm guessing Rhaegar would have thought the same thing.  He didn't consider Viserys (no comet?) and Dany was not yet born before he died.  It seems the promised one has to be female to wake the dragons from stone and become mother of dragons, bride of fire.  The knowledge to wake the dragons is something that has been lost to them but the words remain in their lexicon.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys IV

"Why did they wed if they did not love each other?"

"Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line."

"A woods witch?" Dany was astonished.

A strange and ambiguous statement.  But it does answer the question about the return of dragons.  The woods witch, likely the GoHH is questioned since she was present at Summerhall during the last attempt to hatch dragons.

'A prince [who will hatch dragons from stone] was promised [in another prophecy] would be born of their line.'

The earlier prophecy is where the translation error for Prince/Princess creeps in.

[alienarea]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Where do you want to go from here?  

1. Jon Snow dies and stays dead.

2. Wildlings eliminate the Nightwatch

3. Davos shipwrecked on Skagos, finding Rickon, staying there.

4. Daenerys stays in Vaes Dothrak (sp?), finding peace.

5. The army of the dead reaches a sealed, unmanned wall.

6. Stannis defeats the Freys but gets slain by Manderly. 

7. Anguy shoots Cersei from a distance, because he can.

8. Since chaos is a ladder, Littlefinger falls down one and dies.

Not all of those, but 1-2. I want something unexpected, that doesn't follow a trope.

[LynnS]

1) Mel fights with Val, Borroq and Morna over Jon's body.  Mel loses but collects Jon's frozen blood.

2) Wildlings beat the crap out of the NW.  Tormund becomes Lord Commander.  Send's wildlings to beat the crap out of Ramsey.

3) Davos is killed and eaten by Shaggy Dog.

4) Dany finds out her dragons have been stolen; leaves Vaes Dothrak with a hundred thousand screamers; and beats the crap out of everybody.

5) The army of the dead reaches an unmanned well and fall down it.

6) Stannis defeats the Freys and gets eaten by Manderly.

7) Bran skinchanges Ramsey's dogs and eats Ramsey.

8) Sansa pushes Littlefinger off a ladder and Arya throws him down a well. The army of the dead eat Littlefinger.

   

[Black Crow]

On 5/29/2020 at 5:12 PM, alienarea said:

I grew up reading a lot of hero stories, first the classic Greek ones like Jason, Heracles, Troy and Ulysses, than the German ones, later the Nordic ones ...

It gets repetitive.  

They do, because they all seem to have common roots, but one thing I found intriguing about the Norse and particularly the Icelandic sagas is how abruptly they end, rarely happily and often with the story unresolved

[Black Crow]

On 5/29/2020 at 5:33 PM, LynnS said:

As for the OP, I don't really have much more to say at this point.  There is the question of whether Jon will still think himself a man of the watch once he is resurrected.  You can only leave the NW by shuffling off the mortal coil.  So that could open  up some possibilities. I'm very suspicious of Mel because even though she knew about the assassination plot; she didn't really try very hard to stop it.  So what are her motivations in allowing that to continue? 

I think that question might be straightforward. 

We have seen from her first appearance how obsessed she is with the conflict between Ice and Fire - and winning it - in marked contrast to say the Reeds, who stress the balance.

Earlier she made it clear that despite championing Stannis, she had no interest in his ambitions. She is completely focused on the greater conflict and thinks Stannis has disappointed, failed, even betrayed her by turning away from that conflict to fight for Winterfell. That leaves Jon. Hardhome might be a distraction but its still the true fight. Winterfell again is following in Stannis' footsteps.

What might be more interesting is her earlier dismissal of the Wildlings as a doomed people.

I think that there's no doubt that she's drawing on the Calvinist doctrine of predestination. They are doomed because they are not saved. They are not R'hllor's elect

But that then returns to the question of how she [and everybody else for that matter] sees this panning out.

Ironically, the Mummer's version was wholly in accordance with the Icelandic tradition: Arya lost her virginity and so slew the Night's King and that was it. All over.

But what of the real story? Presumably Our Mel and Master Benero are at one in looking to an everlasting fiery holocaust, but how is this to be brought about?

Conversely, how is this to be avoided? How do you win the battle for the Dawn and is it possible to restore balance and harmony or must the cycle continue?

Bittersweet we're promised, and does that mean that the king, Bendigeidfran, must go into the ground.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

But what of the real story? Presumably Our Mel and Master Benero are at one in looking to an everlasting fiery holocaust, but how is this to be brought about?

Conversely, how is this to be avoided? How do you win the battle for the Dawn and is it possible to restore balance and harmony or must the cycle continue?

If Mel and Benerro are invested in the fiery holocaust, what of Moqorro?  He is Benerro's servant as much he is R'hllor's servant and must have been given instructions.  It seems that Benerro told him about Victarion and the dragonhorn as well as the bar sinister, the storm that would wreck the Stinky Steward.  He also knows about Victarion's injury.  

He does tell Tyrion that Dany is the chosen one and she is imperiled by the Kraken.  Clearly they want her and or her dragons.  How far can we trust him to 'be on Dany's side'?  It seems that Dany will be absent and probably for some time when Victarion's fleet arrives.  Two dragons are on the loose and the city is besieged and in chaos.  Victarion's fleet might roll-up the sea blockade and then what? 

He expects to meet his queen but she's absent and meets with Barristan instead?  I doubt Victarion will want to stick around, so out comes the dragonthorn.  I think the dragonhorn will call both dragons, but Victarion will only be able to bind with one of them.  I'll pick Viserion as the weakest of the two.  Whatever price the horn exacts to claim the dragon will be wholly unexpected and will transform Victarion  in some way that will give Moqorro control over Victarion and the dragon.  Moqorro tells him that he will gets what he deserves.  The vision from the HoU that a stone beast will arise from a smoking tower breathing shadow fire, may well be about Victarion.

So is it likely that Moqorro will stick around and wait for Dany or head back to Volantis with his prize?  I've always maintained that the great temple of R'Hllor has all the characteristics of a dragon pit whether they have a dragon or not.  But I think they have one... the dragon that Dany sees in her wake the dragon dream.  A dragon god.

After all is said and done, I'm expecting Tyrion to capture the green dragon for Barristan and put himself into Dany's hands.  

So Dany learns that her child has been stolen and by whom, heads for Volantis to retrieve her dragon.  I don' think this will be a good outcome for Benerro, and Moqorro unless they can subvert her to their cause.

Whatever Mel is up to or regardless of Stannis' lack of faith; she will use him up and make him into a terrible beast if she can.  In the meantime; her ambitions are now focused on Jon. She thinks he has the ability to use the power of the Wall if he choses.  Does she think she can make Jon into a manx cat, the new AA.  I'm betting the wildlings thwart that ambition by claiming his body and putting it on ice.  They may know more  about Jon's cursed name and the Stark history Mel. 

Bran would certainly want to stop whatever Mel is up to.  There has been some discussion on the general forum that Theon will be taken before a weirwood for execution and this may be the point where Bran skinchanges Theon and speaks with his voice.  A conversion moment for Stannis and a renewal of the faith in the old gods in general.

Is it also possible that the army of the dead is being raised to protect Bran from Euron? 

[LynnS]

Another fascinating post from Sweetsunray if you want to see what the white sword looks like and how it is forged:

 

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

 

Is it also possible that the army of the dead is being raised to protect Bran from Euron? 

The old ones are the good ones...

There is a very old heretic joke that its not going to be a matter of the Dragons saving Westeros from the Others, but of the Others saving Westeros from the Dragons.

In very broad terms, given the very explicit threats by Mel and the Red lot,  I actually think that this may turn out to be true.