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King Adrian Storm

What is the Great Stone Beast?

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Arya has a sword that can penetrate scaled armor?

Needle could penetrate between the scales or any chinks in armor for that matter.. Any small weakness or exposure in the armor.   

Edited by LynnS

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The vision would have been an iron beast if it was Euron.  We also already have a vision showing an ironborn, the man on the prow of the ship.  It does not make sense to have two ironborns in a row. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Dany's Red Comet said:

The vision would have been an iron beast if it was Euron.  We also already have a vision showing an ironborn, the man on the prow of the ship.  It does not make sense to have two ironborns in a row. 

The stone beast, you mean?  The stone beast could also be Victarion rising from a smoking tower (pyramid) in Meereen after taking a dragon with the binding horn.    

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

. . . help her . . . the whispers mocked. . . . show her . . .

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly.

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys V

"A dead man in the prow of a ship, a blue rose, a banquet of blood . . . what does any of it mean, Khaleesi? 

Aeron is a priest of the drowned men.  He could be the dead man or corpse that Dany sees tied to or 'standing' on the prow of Euron's ship the Silence.  Euron's  smile isn't full of sadness, it's full of menace.

Or it could be Jon Connington who already has greyscale, his face and lip turning grey:

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A Feast for Crows - The Prophet

As Aeron rode, his thoughts turned to his brothers.

Nine sons had been born from the loins of Quellon Greyjoy, the Lord of the Iron Islands. Harlon, Quenton, and Donel had been born of Lord Quellon's first wife, a woman of the Stonetrees. Balon, Euron, Victarion, Urrigon, and Aeron were the sons of his second, a Sunderly of Saltcliffe. For a third wife Quellon took a girl from the green lands, who gave him a sickly idiot boy named Robin, the brother best forgotten. The priest had no memory of Quenton or Donel, who had died as infants. Harlon he recalled but dimly, sitting grey-faced and still in a windowless tower room and speaking in whispers that grew fainter every day as the greyscale turned his tongue and lips to stone. One day we shall feast on fish together in the Drowned God's watery halls, the four of us and Urri too.

 

ETA:  In Dany's vision she both describe the man at the prow and in the prow.  The preposition at give us the location but the preposition in tells us moreexpressing the situation of something that is or appears to be enclosed or surrounded by something else.

In other words:  He isn't standing on the deck at the prow but appears to be a part of the prow itself.  Standing because he is tied to the prow in the standing position.

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, LynnS said:

Frey Family Reunion could be right but I'd hate it to be Jon.  I didn't think things could get any worse with Ramsey, Victarion and Euron, but that's wishful thinking.

Eh, I don't have any really strong feelings for this one way or the other.  I'm just suggesting some of the textual support for Jon if indeed he does fit the role.  Speaking of which, the smoking tower, may turn out to be Hardin's tower, Jon's former domicile, the current domicile of Val and other wildling women, and the backdrop of where Jon was knifed (to death?).  Especially if the following texts turn out to be tongue and cheek foreshadowing:

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"Talk is there was some trouble at Harlot's Tower last night," the master-at-arms said. ...

It was some of the men they'd turned away who'd given Hardin's Tower its new, inflammatory name.  Jon was not about to condone the mockery.  "Three drunken fools mistook Hardin's for a brothel, that's all.  They are in the ice cells now, contemplating their mistake."

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But there were dangers in trifling with wildling women.  A man can own a woman, and a man can own a knife, Ygritte had told him once, but no man can own both.  Bowen Marsh had not been all wrong.  Hardin's Tower was tinder waiting for a spark.

As for Jon, my gut feeling is that we're going to see two Jons in the next book: Jon's body resurrected by flame in which the Shadow of his soul resides (Jon's ID or darkest impulses) and a portion of Jon's psyche/soul which may have fled into Ghost before he was killed.  Think of Jon as the broken sword.  The Hilt (Ghost) and the Pointy End (UnJon brought back through sorcery).

Edited by Frey family reunion

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Really leaning towards Jon. We see Stannis and Aegon at a very specific moment when they rise as someone to make Dany's role less clear, so I think that's important for the stone beast, too. Basically, it all adds up to Stannis' AA thing isn't the answer, neither is the perfect Targ king in Aegon, nor is the NW and the North the answer. It's the Bride of Fire, the Mother of Dragons.

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“From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire…”

The moment in question for Jon is when he defeats Othor.  Jon sets Othor on fire which in turn sets the Lord Commander’s tower on fire.  The next morning, Jon is granted Longclaw (the stone beast) which publicly recognizes Jon as Jeor’s chosen successor which leads to him becoming LC.

From a smoking tower…

Pyp grinned. "The Night's Watch is thousands of years old," he said, "but I'll wager Lord Snow's the first brother ever honored for burning down the Lord Commander's Tower."

The others laughed, and even Jon had to smile. The fire he'd started had not, in truth, burned down that formidable stone tower, but it had done a fair job of gutting the interior of the top two floors, where the Old Bear had his chambers.

The tower may still be smoking at the moment Jon receives Longclaw.

...a great stone beast...

The pommel was a hunk of pale stone weighted with lead to balance the long blade. It had been carved into the likeness of a snarling wolf's head, with chips of garnet set into the eyes. The grip was virgin leather, soft and black, as yet unstained by sweat or blood.

A direwolf is a great beast.

 

...took wing, ...

The Night’s Watch are Crows, hence “take wing”.  Jon also “took wing” as the chosen successor of Jeor.

 

...breathing shadow fire...

The Night’s Watch also breaths shadow fire, or false fire.

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

Shadow fire and taking flight might have a double meaning: not only does it point to Jon and the NW, it could also be recognizing the threat of his Targiness. One who doesn’t hatch dragons.

This moment where Jon is set on his path becomes even more significant if we look at what happened right before burning the Tower and killing Othor. Earlier that evening, it sounds like Jeor has decided against Jon being his designated successor. The text makes clear that Jon has been on trial since being named as the LC’s steward—and he’s failed.

Later, much later, after they had marched him back to his sleeping cell, Mormont came down to see him, raven on his shoulder. "I told you not to do anything stupid, boy," the Old Bear said. "Boy," the bird chorused. Mormont shook his head, disgusted. "And to think I had high hopes for you."

Like the visions with Stannis and Aegon, for Jon it all turns on a few moments: his killing Othor, the subsequent burning of the LC’s tower and being granted Longclaw and all that implies, setting him on the path of competing with Dany.

 

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On 5/30/2020 at 8:53 AM, Megorova said:

The vision is not about awakening of that stone dragon, it's about his birth.

Jon's birth represents a great stone best "taking wing, breathing shadow fire"? I don't think a baby's cries quite qualify, and he couldn't walk, much less fly.

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he is a dormant dragon, the last dragon that Dany will awake from stone

So a great stone beast flying around and breathing fire is still "dormant" and not "awakened"? Like sleepwalking?

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he's going to become the Sword of the Morning)

I think he could become Sword of the Morning, but mostly because there aren't eligible candidates (Edric is too young, Darkstar is unworthy) and the Long Night is coming so they might reason that Jon is just Worthy enough to override his name not being "Dayne". The most unique sword in Westeros belongs with an important character for this final battle.

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The tower is smoking because it's where was created a "smoke screen" that hid Jon's origin from the rest of the world.

You don't create a smokescreen by burning the top of a tower. You have to MOVE a source of smoke, not have it fixed in place.

On 5/30/2020 at 1:12 PM, Allardyce said:

So purely ice that I give credit to those who believe he is the son of Brandon and Lyanna.

So a bit like the "good answer" cartoon Robert comes up with here, which was more accurate than he knew.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, LynnS said:

The stone beast, you mean?  The stone beast could also be Victarion rising from a smoking tower (pyramid) in Meereen after taking a dragon with the binding horn.    

Victarion is the smiling man on the ship.  The stone beast taking flight is somebody else.  All of the people in the vision are deceivers.  So far we have Stannis and Young Griff.  Gray in this vision is the color of recent death.  It is the color of flesh that has died recently.  Soiled white as in dirty snow.  This fits with Jon's situation.  He soiled the Night's Watch and he has recently died.  I believe he is the stone beast taking flight.  He is a fake dragon.  To be more specific, Jon is not a true Targaryen but somebody will make an attempt to pass him off as one.  Stone is gray, dirty snow, white that has been soiled, and decaying flesh.  Stone also means hard of heart and a person without pity.  We are first given an example in Stoneheart.  So this beast will set out to destroy.  Which is again Jon.  His last thoughts are Ghost and "sticking them with the pointy end," which is revenge.  He will come back with getting even on his mind.  Like Cat Stoneheart he will carry out the last thoughts he had right before he died.  The smoking tower is at Winterfell.  It is smoking because he will burn it down.  Of course, Jon is not a dragon.  The fire in this vision will be the product of Mellisandre's special effects learned from the shadowed city of Asshai by the Shadow.  She can create Shadow babies.  Creating Shadow fire should be easy for her.  The stone beast is Jon Snow being passed off as Azor Ahai by Mellisandre.  Jon will be on the warpath as soon as he gets reanimated.  He will have a warped idea of justice just like Lady Stoneheart. 

Edited by Dany's Red Comet

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

As for Jon, my gut feeling is that we're going to see two Jons in the next book: Jon's body resurrected by flame in which the Shadow of his soul resides (Jon's ID or darkest impulses) and a portion of Jon's psyche/soul which may have fled into Ghost before he was killed.  Think of Jon as the broken sword.  The Hilt (Ghost) and the Pointy End (UnJon brought back through sorcery)

My reaction to this scenario is primarily visceral and not a repudiation.    I feel like we are about to enter the horror phase of Martin's writing if the Forsaken chapter is anything to go by.  Like a horror film that you can only watch through cracks of your fingers.

Edited by LynnS

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10 hours ago, LynnS said:

My reaction to this scenario is primarily visceral and not a repudiation.    I feel like we are about to enter the horror phase of Martin's writing if the Forsaken chapter is anything to go by.  Like a horror film that you can only watch through cracks of your fingers.

He did say his characters are in dark places right now.  I assume that to mean they are doing things that are morally suspect.  

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

He did say his characters are in dark places right now.  I assume that to mean they are doing things that are morally suspect.  

When Martin offered to read one of three of his  pre-released chapters, he asked the  audience to choose.  When they chose the Forsaken chapter, he laughed and called them sick bastards.   So not just morally suspect stuff... but the graphically horrific stuff... the sick bastard stuff.  LOL  That's what I'm afraid of  

Edited by LynnS

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6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

When Martin offered to read one of three of his three pre-released chapters, he asked the  audience to choose.  When they chose the Forsaken chapter, he laughed and called them sick bastards.   So not just morally suspect stuff... but the graphically horrific stuff... the sick bastard stuff.  LOL  That's what I'm afraid of  

If indeed Jon is brought back from the dead, there should be some consequence for it.  I mean his death and resurrection in the HBO series turned out to be pretty pointless.  Jon was basically the same character before his “death” as he was afterwards.

I think GRRM is toying with the Jungian idea of the Shadow.  Our darkest impulses buried deep down within, which we try to suppress or disassociate with how we see ourselves.  

Stannis’ Shadow assassins may be an example.  Stannis desire to kill his brother and kill the castellan without danger to himself or his cause, brought to life through Melisandre’s magic.  For Stannis it all seems like some vague dream.  

And then we have Cat.  A fairly fleshed out character with many positive traits, but like all of us, some negative traits as well.  But when she returns as Lady Stoneheart, she encompasses Cat’s negative traits and impulses without Cat’s overall humanity.  My guess is when she is brought back to life, only a portion of her psyche or spirit returns with her: her Shadow.  

So then we turn to Jon.  Once again a pretty good guy who has his share of faults.  Jon’s deepest, forbidden desire is revealed to be his desire for Winterfell.  That’s his forbidden fruit which Stannis tries to tempt him with.  So if Jon does indeed die, and he is brought back, when he does return does his Shadow take over?  Does Jon give in to his temptation for Winterfell.  Does he cast aside the oath he took to the Night’s Watch?  Does he travel t Winterfell only to rescue Arya, or does he also travel there to lay claim to what he may secretly believe was unfairly denied him based on the status of his legitimacy?  

Which is why I keep going back to the idea of Jon as the broken sword.  Looking at another broken sword, Ice, it is broken into two separate swords: Widow’s wail, and Oathkeeper.  

Does Jon’s stabbing cause him to split into two?  The “pointy end”, the sword without a hilt, Widow’s Wail?  Jon’s Shadow self brought back through sorcery.  His darkest desire to seek revenge on those who stabbed him, and to take Winterfell as his own?

And perhaps Jon’s basic humanity which may have fled into Ghost at the time of his stabbing: the Hilt/Oathkeeper.

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38 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

If indeed Jon is brought back from the dead, there should be some consequence for it.  I mean his death and resurrection in the HBO series turned out to be pretty pointless.  Jon was basically the same character before his “death” as he was afterwards.

I think GRRM is toying with the Jungian idea of the Shadow.  Our darkest impulses buried deep down within, which we try to suppress or disassociate with how we see ourselves.  

Stannis’ Shadow assassins may be an example.  Stannis desire to kill his brother and kill the castellan without danger to himself or his cause, brought to life through Melisandre’s magic.  For Stannis it all seems like some vague dream.  

And then we have Cat.  A fairly fleshed out character with many positive traits, but like all of us, some negative traits as well.  But when she returns as Lady Stoneheart, she encompasses Cat’s negative traits and impulses without Cat’s overall humanity.  My guess is when she is brought back to life, only a portion of her psyche or spirit returns with her: her Shadow.  

So then we turn to Jon.  Once again a pretty good guy who has his share of faults.  Jon’s deepest, forbidden desire is revealed to be his desire for Winterfell.  That’s his forbidden fruit which Stannis tries to tempt him with.  So if Jon does indeed die, and he is brought back, when he does return does his Shadow take over?  Does Jon give in to his temptation for Winterfell.  Does he cast aside the oath he took to the Night’s Watch?  Does he travel t Winterfell only to rescue Arya, or does he also travel there to lay claim to what he may secretly believe was unfairly denied him based on the status of his legitimacy?  

Which is why I keep going back to the idea of Jon as the broken sword.  Looking at another broken sword, Ice, it is broken into two separate swords: Widow’s wail, and Oathkeeper.  

Does Jon’s stabbing cause him to split into two?  The “pointy end”, the sword without a hilt, Widow’s Wail?  Jon’s Shadow self brought back through sorcery.  His darkest desire to seek revenge on those who stabbed him, and to take Winterfell as his own?

And perhaps Jon’s basic humanity which may have fled into Ghost at the time of his stabbing: the Hilt/Oathkeeper.

This seems to me to be a very eloquent trope. I think Martin expects just that from his readers regarding Jon's "death/resurrection". I don't think Jon died and it was all Melisandre's quackery. In my opinion the stone beast is Jon Connington spreading the greyscales (the shadow fire) in Westeros.

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On 5/31/2020 at 4:53 AM, LynnS said:

I'm wondering if the army of the dead is being raised to protect Bran from Euron.

I don't know about this, but there's something that sounds suspiciously a lot like necromancy with AA.

"Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned. . . and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end . . . death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn . . ." (Tyrion VI, ADwD 22)

There is the dream that Jon has about the vaults opening in the crypts and the dead stumbling out. If there's anything Bran-related, it might be this.

About Jon and the whole slayer of lies business. I don't think this triad has anything to do with him, because I think the triads are about one specific thing represented by different people, but his identity itself is a lie. 

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3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

And perhaps Jon’s basic humanity which may have fled into Ghost at the time of his stabbing: the Hilt/Oathkeeper.

Even if he isn't the stone beast, I think this is a likely outcome for Jon.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

About Jon and the whole slayer of lies business. I don't think this triad has anything to do with him, because I think the triads are about one specific thing represented by different people, but his identity itself is a lie. 

I'm not so sure about it either.  I'm not even sure what the dragon has three heads means.  The blue flower growing in a chink in the Wall seems to point to Jon.  

I was also told that an old heresy joke is that the army of the dead is raised to protect Bran from Mel and the fiery lot.  

Edited by LynnS

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"The river that had seemed so narrow from a distance now stretched wide as a sea, but the city had grown gigantic as well. Glowering down from Aegon's High Hill, the Red Keep commanded the approaches. Its iron-crowned battlements, massive towers, and thick red walls gave it the aspect of a ferocious beast hunched above river and streets. The bluffs on which it crouched were steep and rocky, spotted with lichen and gnarled thorny trees. The fleet would have to pass below the castle to reach the harbor and city beyond." - Davos III ACOK
 
It's probably a reference to the only person left who is a full Targaryen. 

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3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If indeed Jon is brought back from the dead, there should be some consequence for it.  I mean his death and resurrection in the HBO series turned out to be pretty pointless.  Jon was basically the same character before his “death” as he was afterwards.

I think GRRM is toying with the Jungian idea of the Shadow.  Our darkest impulses buried deep down within, which we try to suppress or disassociate with how we see ourselves.  

Stannis’ Shadow assassins may be an example.  Stannis desire to kill his brother and kill the castellan without danger to himself or his cause, brought to life through Melisandre’s magic.  For Stannis it all seems like some vague dream.  

And then we have Cat.  A fairly fleshed out character with many positive traits, but like all of us, some negative traits as well.  But when she returns as Lady Stoneheart, she encompasses Cat’s negative traits and impulses without Cat’s overall humanity.  My guess is when she is brought back to life, only a portion of her psyche or spirit returns with her: her Shadow.  

So then we turn to Jon.  Once again a pretty good guy who has his share of faults.  Jon’s deepest, forbidden desire is revealed to be his desire for Winterfell.  That’s his forbidden fruit which Stannis tries to tempt him with.  So if Jon does indeed die, and he is brought back, when he does return does his Shadow take over?  Does Jon give in to his temptation for Winterfell.  Does he cast aside the oath he took to the Night’s Watch?  Does he travel t Winterfell only to rescue Arya, or does he also travel there to lay claim to what he may secretly believe was unfairly denied him based on the status of his legitimacy?  

Which is why I keep going back to the idea of Jon as the broken sword.  Looking at another broken sword, Ice, it is broken into two separate swords: Widow’s wail, and Oathkeeper.  

Does Jon’s stabbing cause him to split into two?  The “pointy end”, the sword without a hilt, Widow’s Wail?  Jon’s Shadow self brought back through sorcery.  His darkest desire to seek revenge on those who stabbed him, and to take Winterfell as his own?

And perhaps Jon’s basic humanity which may have fled into Ghost at the time of his stabbing: the Hilt/Oathkeeper.

You are so right about Cat.  All her compassion is lost.  Humanity encompass both the good and the bad.  Death removes much of that humanity.  Oxygen deprivation due to not breathing damages the brain.  The intellect no longer function properly.  Resurrection brings the life back but does not correct for the damage to the body.  Cat is operating on feelings and emotions now.  The same will happen to Jon.  He will come back angry.  It will not matter if Bowen Marsh had the right justification.  I don't believe it will even matter to Jon how awfully bad it is to attack the Boltons.  He will attack them anyway.  With an army of wights.   

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm not so sure about it either.  I'm not even sure what the dragon has three heads means.  The blue flower growing in a chink in the Wall seems to point to Jon.  

I agree with this. I don't see him being part of both the slayer of lies and the bride of fire triads. 

The dragon has three heads seems to be important enough that it's mentioned twice at the HotU. Rhaegar is important enough that he appears twice in the visions. Once with Elia / Aegon and once as the dying prince. Aegon appears twice as well. Once with Elia / Rhaegar and once as the mummer's dragon. For me at least it reinforces the idea that Dany and Aegon aren't going to try and kill each other.

Everyone else, though, they seem to appear only once. Although I think a thin argument can be made that the dying prince whispering a woman's name with his last breath ties directly back to Jon.

That said, I think we should probably take a look at smoking towers / burning towers. The Lord Commander's Tower in AGoT was burned down during the wight attack and along the Wall we have the Shadow Tower. We don't know what the Nightfort was like and what the names of the towers were, but the NF seems to have the only weirwood on the Wall. Things could happen there with Stannis making it his seat.

Other towers. The Tower of the Hand was burned down by Cersei with wildfire. House Grafton's sigil is a burning tower and we have the Hightower. Interestingly enough, there is one character who is connected to both Gulltown (or a dungeon near Gulltown) and Oldtown and who is on the Wall, and that's Satin. This last part probably means nothing.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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14 hours ago, H Wadsey Longfellow said:

You are so right about Cat.  All her compassion is lost.  Humanity encompass both the good and the bad.  Death removes much of that humanity.  Oxygen deprivation due to not breathing damages the brain.  The intellect no longer function properly.  Resurrection brings the life back but does not correct for the damage to the body.  Cat is operating on feelings and emotions now.  The same will happen to Jon.  He will come back angry.  It will not matter if Bowen Marsh had the right justification.  I don't believe it will even matter to Jon how awfully bad it is to attack the Boltons.  He will attack them anyway.  With an army of wights.   

Reason tames the emotion.  Jon was already a vindictive hot head.  He will be a menace without reason holding back his feelings.

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Posted (edited)

The Ironborn tied to the front of the ship reminds me of the mean fellow Theon Stark.  That is the sort of thing he would do.  The stone part might refer to the fact that the Kings of Winter are memorialized in stone beneath Winterfell.  This stone beast is a King of Winter.  

Edited by Widowmaker 811

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