The Wheel of Time TV Show 4: The Budget Rising [BOOK SPOILERS]

[Poobah]

Gonna tag in to defend Min.

Ok so people have brought up sexism so let's swing it back around and imagine she was a guy. I'm gonna ignore all the useful stuff she does independently in the plot for a minute for the sake of buying in to the way she's being characterised here, so anyway: this guy follows the chosen one around the whole time, he's becomes the chosen one's best friend, most loyal supporter, confidant, only person in the world that he feels he can fully trust, sticks with him through thick and thin, through the darkness and pain and various trials and tribulations etc. are people gonna accuse this guy of having no character, no arc? Or are they gonna say "wow what a great dude, I'd love to have a friend like that, Samwise Gamgee is a true hero and series MVP." But you define a female character like that and suddenly she has no character, no arc, could be replaced by a book etc? Come on.

I don't dislike Aviendha or Elayne (although Elayne gets real annoying in the "lol don't worry I'm invincible because Min said my babies will be born healthy, whoops I got myself captured and everyone around me killed" phase so I think the hate for her is quite justified if it's rooted in all the dumb shit she does, and I think Aviendha is a much better character when she's away from Rand and free to act on her own without all of Jordan's really bad attempts at romance writing dragging her down) but Min is certainly my favourite of the three, though it's really really telling that whenever one of these characters gets brought up it's always a comparison between the three like their relationship with Rand is their core defining feature. But anyway for me what I like about a character isn't really about how much cool stuff they do, honestly in a series overflowing with extremely high power level characters the fact that Min is basically a vanilla is one of the major reasons she stands out. Almost anyone in this series can win battles and do fancy magics but basically no one else actually uses their brain much - partly because they don't need to thanks to all the fancy magical powers, and partly because if they did then the plot would be over way sooner. Min's pretty much the only one never to pick up the stupid ball and she's consistently depicted as intelligent and using her smarts and the resources she has access to as effectively as she can to actually achieve some good. And she does all this studying of philosophy and prophecy while also metaphorically putting Rand on her back and carrying his ass through Mordor by doing a Herculean amount of emotional labour.

Min's also the only character who never really wastes any energy or angst on arguing with the underlying metaphysics of the world, and also isn't stupid in the way she treats prophecy. The three main boys spend most of the series running away from their destinies to one degree or another, Elaida's entire character arc is based on hubris that stems from her own prophetic abilities and her hilariously inaccurate interpretations of her prophecies, I've mentioned how Elayne treats the one prophecy she gets her hands on... it goes on. Min truly groks that prophesied events are immutable and that the only way you can exercise control in the world is by sailing with the wind rather than struggling against it and being blown the way it wants in the end anyway. She seizes her destiny by the balls and gets what she wants out of it instead of sitting around bemoaning her fate.

Rather than going on at length at length about the stuff Min does, I guess I'll finish by saying that in my opinion without her the world would have been doomed - her contribution isn't as visible and filled with magical and explosions but without her Rand would, I'm pretty certain, have completely fallen into madness and darkness and that'd have been it.

[Durckad]

Yeah Aviendha's is easily the best of the three when it comes to building a believable romance. That said, I think Min has the best chemistry with Rand. I buy them as a couple, even if the journey to get there is eh.

[SpaceChampion]

Plot-wise too though, wasn't Min the one that figured out how to beat the Dark One?  I'm vague on the details...   Rand was waiting for one thing before he could go to Tarmon Gai'don, and I think she found it and trigger whatever thought process he needed.

 

[Jace, Extat]

3 hours ago, Poobah said:

though it's really really telling that whenever one of these characters gets brought up it's always a comparison between the three like their relationship with Rand is their core defining feature.

That is their core defining features. All three of them bend their lives over backwards to flit in and out of the hareem. Them bitches need to put aside their magics and spears and independence and go get baby bumps. I didn't write it that way, Robert Jordan did.

And I also am sad that all kinds of weird shit like that will be culled away to make the series Game of Thrones. Robert Jordan's world was rich and diverse and fucking weird and fun. That's why people liked it, not the sloppy ass grand narrative.

[fionwe1987]

It's ludicrous to claim Elayne's core defining feature is her relationship to Rand. And it would be much more accurate to say Aviendha's core defining feature is her relationship to Elayne. 

All that said, I totally agree Min has an arc and a perfectly fun character. I like her, her interactions with Siuan and Leane are fun, too. 

I just dislike the folks who like her solely because she's bound to Rand's arc. 

[Jace, Extat]

3 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

It's ludicrous to claim Elayne's core defining feature is her relationship to Rand. And it would be much more accurate to say Aviendha's core defining feature is her relationship to Elayne. 

 

But Elayne and Aviendha both have to set aside their personal pursuits in order to meet their societal obligations, except for that pesky business with their destined romances. It literally becomes the most important thing about them, their relationships to Rand. 

I'm not even saying that's a bad thing for a story. There's just a lot of way more empowered, well-rounded, ladies in the story whose romantic pursuits don't make me want to put my eyes out.

All in my opinion I suppose. I haven't read the series in some time.

[Maithanet]

12 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

ladies in the story whose romantic pursuits don't make me want to put my eyes out.

There are romances in this series that don't make you cringe?  Well, to each her own I guess. 

[fionwe1987]

2 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

But Elayne and Aviendha both have to set aside their personal pursuits in order to meet their societal obligations, except for that pesky business with their destined romances.

What personal pursuits do they set aside for Rand? Elayne literally gets the choice to go to Rand instead of going to Ebou Dar to fix the weather. She refused to, because she knows the weather is the priority.

I suppose you could say Aviendha left her Wise One training to set up a relationship with Elayne for Rand, and that's true. It's just that so little of their time together is about Rand, and so much about discovering each other that it's sometimes hard to remember it is about Rand. It's not like every page drips with yearning for Rand. He's perfunctorily mentioned now and then, but they're laser focussed on fixing the weather first, then gaining the throne of Andor. 

[fionwe1987]

2 hours ago, Maithanet said:

There are romances in this series that don't make you cringe?  Well, to each her own I guess. 

A few work out okay. Lan and Nynaeve isn't too bad. But for the most part, romance sucks in WoT, yeah. 

[Starkess]

People don't like Min?! She's great! She's effing smart. What I remember most about her is that she was always walking around with her nose in a book. I also appreciated her wanting to be pretty and attractive but still have her own sense of style. After all the skirt smoothing and braid tugging, it was so damn refreshing to have short-haired, pants-wearing Min come along and make Rand swoon. And her and Rand definitely have the most in depth relationship, and his treatment of her is a huge catalyst in his own personal development and the plot. She's loyal, supportive, and irreverent, and her and Rand have a healthy sexual relationship which isn't seen much in the series. Min is awesome, and I have never once considered her an un-feminist or MPDG character.

[Jace, Extat]

5 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

What personal pursuits do they set aside for Rand? Elayne literally gets the choice to go to Rand instead of going to Ebou Dar to fix the weather. She refused to, because she knows the weather is the priority.

 

Maybe I phrased that poorly, let me try again. Aviendha has to give up being a soldier because she has more important duties to her people. Elayne has to give up witchery for the same reasons. Two capable, gifted, women who don't get to pursue their own interests because there's just more important shit to be done. That's a fucking character, baby! A pair of 'em, no less. But as you point out, the later episodes of the hareem become accepting their places as sisterwives and loving each other too... because they love Rand. I recall a number of conversations to that effect, 'we have to set aside our own differences and wants because Rand needs us.' 

That is directly wrapping your life around a man, and distinct from sacrificing personal ambitions for the good of your society.

[SpaceChampion]

6 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Maybe I phrased that poorly, let me try again. Aviendha has to give up being a soldier because she has more important duties to her people.

Avi channels.  Her warrior life was over no matter what, as perfectly cromulent with Aiel custom.  Nothing to do with Rand.

[Jace, Extat]

Just now, SpaceChampion said:

Avi channels.  Her warrior life was over no matter what, as perfectly cromulent with Aiel custom.

I wasn't arguing the opposite. The fact remains that she is resistant and resentful of this change, growing into acceptance as she matures. 

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

I wasn't arguing the opposite. The fact remains that she is resistant and resentful of this change, growing into acceptance as she matures. 

Which also has nothing to do with Rand.

Aviendha has no trouble with the concept of sister wives. At all.

Elayne does, but where her "falling in love with Rand" is given barely any time, her coming to accept the concept, and buying into the women she'd be sister wives with, gets a lot more time. But it definitely doesn't come at the cost of her ambitions and goals in life, and this holds through to the very end. 

[David Selig]

1 hour ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Maybe I phrased that poorly, let me try again. Aviendha has to give up being a soldier because she has more important duties to her people. Elayne has to give up witchery for the same reasons. Two capable, gifted, women who don't get to pursue their own interests because there's just more important shit to be done. That's a fucking character, baby! A pair of 'em, no less. But as you point out, the later episodes of the hareem become accepting their places as sisterwives and loving each other too... because they love Rand. I recall a number of conversations to that effect, 'we have to set aside our own differences and wants because Rand needs us.'

Elayne never gave up witchery and becoming a queen was always her main priority and politics and governing something she likes to do, not something she was forced into.

And there was never any conversations of this kind. The arrangement was for the women's benefit and because the prophecy required it, at least in their minds.

[Jace, Extat]

6 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Which also has nothing to do with Rand.

Aviendha has no trouble with the concept of sister wives. At all.

Elayne does, but where her "falling in love with Rand" is given barely any time, her coming to accept the concept, and buying into the women she'd be sister wives with, gets a lot more time. But it definitely doesn't come at the cost of her ambitions and goals in life, and this holds through to the very end. 

I didn't say Aviendha giving up the spear had anything to do with Rand. Ever. The fact that folks are repeatedly suggesting such smacks of poor reading comprehension or willful misunderstanding.

Let me say again: Neither Aviendha or Elayne are bad characters. Neither give up their dreams for Rand. Both have to give up their personal ambitions well before falling in love with Rand, part of their character development.

LET ME SAY AGAIN: NEITHER AVIENDHA OR ELAYNE GIVE UP THEIR PERSONAL AMBITIONS FOR RAND, THOSE MOMENTS OF GROWTH ARE THEIR OWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

However, as the series drags on and people go on multi-book quests to find a bowl that will fix the weather which impacts the plot in a total of like ten paragraphs over the course of three books, Aviendha and Elayne's personal developments center around their relationships to each other and Rand. And, I don't know if I'm a crazy person here, but learning to love a woman you don't like because she also fucks around with your baby daddy... has more to do with Rand and Elayne than Aviendha and Elayne.

My position is not that either are bad characters. Or that everything they do from chapter one, book one, is devoted to sucking off Rand al'Thor. I am saying that their characters become immutably centered around Rand in a way that most others do not, to the point that their very personal relationships with people not named Rand are warped around what best serves his interests. How is that not redesigning your life around a man? I didn't say Elayne abdicates and follows him on campaign, I said they all changed their lives for his convenience.

 

[Myrddin]

3 hours ago, Starkess said:

People don't like Min?! She's great! She's effing smart. What I remember most about her is that she was always walking around with her nose in a book. I also appreciated her wanting to be pretty and attractive but still have her own sense of style. After all the skirt smoothing and braid tugging, it was so damn refreshing to have short-haired, pants-wearing Min come along and make Rand swoon. And her and Rand definitely have the most in depth relationship, and his treatment of her is a huge catalyst in his own personal development and the plot. She's loyal, supportive, and irreverent, and her and Rand have a healthy sexual relationship which isn't seen much in the series. Min is awesome, and I have never once considered her an un-feminist or MPDG character.

Nora beat me to my rant.

Min was the one character who always treated Rand like Rand, not The Dragon Reborn(tm). She's Samwise. The Best Friend. Rand's Partner.

And I always liked the book smart part of her. Rand was doing Dragon Reborn political stuff, while she was there reading up on the stuff he would need to know, while treating him human, keeping him human. Granted, he strained that later on. One of the most horrifying scenes was when he snapped and almost killed her. To me, that illustrated he was nearly gone. If he almost killed the one person he trusted 100%, then he was seriously losing it.

Of the three, she was my favorite for Rand. Elayne was a drama queen. Strong, but also not in touch with most people. She and Rand had a moment in Tear. A summer fling. Fleeting young love. Ave was ... cold. She had her path, and I respected her journey. I never bought her as more than part of Rand's past. Min was Rand's life partner, the grounding he needed to remember why he should survive.

 

Ok, Maybe I had more rant in me. Carry on.

[fionwe1987]

2 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

I didn't say Aviendha giving up the spear had anything to do with Rand. Ever. The fact that folks are repeatedly suggesting such smacks of poor reading comprehension or willful misunderstanding.

Or, just maybe, you're failing to get your point across. 

2 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

However, as the series drags on and people go on multi-book quests to find a bowl that will fix the weather which impacts the plot in a total of like ten paragraphs over the course of three books,

Well if you're going to start making shit up...

2 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Aviendha and Elayne's personal developments center around their relationships to each other and Rand. And, I don't know if I'm a crazy person here, but learning to love a woman you don't like because she also fucks around with your baby daddy... has more to do with Rand and Elayne than Aviendha and Elayne.

Aviendha and Elayne never disliked each other. 

2 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

My position is not that either are bad characters. Or that everything they do from chapter one, book one, is devoted to sucking off Rand al'Thor. I am saying that their characters become immutably centered around Rand in a way that most others do not, to the point that their very personal relationships with people not named Rand are warped around what best serves his interests. How is that not redesigning your life around a man? I didn't say Elayne abdicates and follows him on campaign, I said they all changed their lives for his convenience.

And others are saying they are not centered around Rand. He's a part of their lives, but their relationship with each other grows well beyond Rand.

When Aviendha risks burning out to hang around Elayne as she's executing the risky maneuver of unraveling her Gateway, she isn't thinking "geez I can't let the other woman Rand loves die".

When Elayne asks Aviendha to become her First Sister, Rand isn't part of her decision making. It's Aviendha taking an enormous risk.

I know 8/9/10 are somewhat tedious books, but they focus very much on Elayne and Aviendha becoming close to each other, not as a function of Rand. 

Which is why I'd suggested that having them be in an actual relationship would make perfect sense. There's way more on the page of how they come to love each other than how either loves Rand. 

[fionwe1987]

42 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

One of the most horrifying scenes was when he snapped and almost killed her. To me, that illustrated he was nearly gone. If he almost killed the one person he trusted 100%, then he was seriously losing it.

It's not like Rand wanted to kill her. He was being compelled to by Semirhage. He lost it when he almost succeeded. 

[Jace, Extat]

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Or, just maybe, you're failing to get your point across. 

Well if you're going to start making shit up...

 

Well if we're going in for total honesty...

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I know 8/9/10 are somewhat tedious books, but they focus very much on Elayne and Aviendha becoming close to each other, not as a function of Rand. 

 

I read books 3-11 in like two weeks, and that whole bowl of the winds shit felt like I was hammering railroad spikes through my eyes. It's possible that my attention to the women in question was wanting at this time, especially given how on an island I am here.

I've been wrong before, so I will reform my statements to reflect a matter of opinion.

Meanwhile, the Semirhage controlling of Rand sequence is one of my favorite in the series. A genuinely delightful exhibition in storytelling.