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Wintersshewolf

Arya Jon and Arya Still Endgame?

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9 hours ago, zandru said:

When did Arya think of Gendry, once she left the Brotherhood without Banners? We don't have a window into Gendry's head, but the fact that he joined the Brotherhood and thus turned his back on Arya suggests he's not actually lovelorne.

She thinks of rejoining the BwB after being taken by the Hound and be alongside Gendry, but dismisses it then as a story that Sansa would like. Those are conflicting emotions. She feels and desires something that doesn't fit her earlier dualistic mindset of Sansa-Arya. It's part of growing up. She thinks of Gendry twice more in aFfC, once when dropped off at the HoBaW, and when she reminds herself she once had a pack but no more.
 

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As the swish of oars faded, she could almost hear the beating of her heart. Suddenly she was somewhere else . . . back in Harrenhal with Gendry, maybe, or with the Hound in the woods along the Trident. Salty is a stupid child, she told herself. I am a wolf, and will not be afraid. (aFfC, Arya I)

When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. She had no pack, though. They had killed her pack, Ser Ilyn and Ser Meryn and the queen, and when she tried to make a new one all of them ran off, Hot Pie and Gendry and Yoren and Lommy Greenhands, even Harwin, who had been her father's man. (aFfC, Arya II)

 

The first quote: Arya recognizes she feels scared (will not be afraid), but rejects the fear as stupid. This implies her memory of Harrenhal is tied to fear, but also that Gendry made her feel safer, even if she was the one who got them out of there. And since she also remembers the Hound at the same time, Gendry is as important to Arya as the Hound is. Oh and we know how Arya lies to herself when she claims to hate the Hound.

In the second quote she claims "they ran off", but Yoren and Lommy hadn't run off. They were killed. This makes clear that her thoughts of the loss of her self-made pack is irrational, a rejection out of fear for rejection. The point is, she regards Gendry as her pack.

Anyhow, that should prove that Arya did think of Gendry after being taken from the BwB.

As for Gendry, I think this is too harsh. It's quite clear the boy started to develop feelings for her, enough that he did not look forward to the prospect of smithing for Robb and be around her, while her family would keep her away from him and marry her off. His mind was always more bent towards knighthood, to escape his station. I'd bet Dunk is his hero, that just like Arya had this little desire to return to the BwB and be alongside Gendry (as maid Marion?), he had this notion to become some reknowned hero to win the favor and heart of his lady at a tourney, and win her hand by merit alone. Chances are slim, but they're higher in Gendry's mind than smithing for her brother does. But his insight what smithing for her brother would be like is more realistic than Arya's.

On top of that, we get ample hints that the super-upset Gendry is thinking of Arya a lot. He surrounds himself in memories of her. While Arya forcibly chooses to forget everything and everyone that pains her, Gendry does the opposite. He LIVES in the inn where she fought Polliver and killed the squire, and retrieved Needle. The blood stains of her victim are still on the floor board and cannot be cleaned off entirely (and the BwB know this from the witness accounts of the survivors). One of the Heddle sisters looks like Arya (except for the eyes) and bosses around like Arya. Her name Willow is a tree-name, and the song sung for Gendry and Arya likens Arya to a tree-nymph. And it was a willow that Arya hid behind when the BwB found them. The BwB never stopped looking for Arya, having chased the Hound and later with LS at the helm asking anyone about her. I'm certain that LS, the BwB and Gendry know her trail as far as Saltpans, where it went cold. That's why Gendry is so angry. He fears Arya's dead, but hopes she escaped the carnage. LS clearly hopes the same, as evidenced on how the inn functions. It's an "orphanage" where adults deliver kids. They all hope that some traveling septon may come across Arya pretending to be someone else and delivers here there, or she finds her own way there. That is why LS and Gendry want Gendry to remain at the inn - he's the likeliest to recognize her, even if she uses a fake name and disguises herself as a boy. Gendry's life is structured around Arya, literally and figuratively.

 

 

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I still would like to see a tragic relationship between Jon and Arya,    

Edited by Widowmaker 811

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22 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I still would like to see a tragic relationship between Jon and Arya,    

The feather that broke the camel's back. 

The feather in question is this post and I am the damn camel. 

Everytime something related to the North/Starks /Jon or direwolves or so, a particular group of people always pour in their hatred and write negatively. 

I've had enough. Please post without any bias.

Had to vent out my ire, u know? 

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2 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Cat was 3 days dead IIRC. Jon will be ressurected almost immediately. Also Cat tore her own face out. Jon's wounds are not so bad. 

We don't know how, if, or when he will be resurrected though. And if his resurrection is less impactful than Cat's, what's the point? GRRM is a writer who allows his characters to experience consequences and he has said in interviews that he doesn't believe in bringing characters back unless there is a high cost.

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Gendry is the last of the Baratheon bloodline apart from Edric, Mya and Bella, Russel Merryweather(suspected). I don't see Mya embracing nobility any time soon. Edric is too minor a character. He just blindly worships his father. Bella...., nothing to say about that.

Gendry will be revealed to be Robert's son.....

 

I do wonder what Gendry's significance might be. Since Varys put in the effort to save his life and Yoren tried to protect him as well as he protected Arya, it could be something for something more than we already know.

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2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The first quote: Arya recognizes she feels scared (will not be afraid), but rejects the fear as stupid. This implies her memory of Harrenhal is tied to fear, but also that Gendry made her feel safer, even if she was the one who got them out of there. And since she also remembers the Hound at the same time, Gendry is as important to Arya as the Hound is. Oh and we know how Arya lies to herself when she claims to hate the Hound.

Thanks for the reminders!

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Gendry does the opposite. He LIVES in the inn where she fought Polliver and killed the squire, and retrieved Needle.  [...]

Very interesting analysis! I hadn't thought that Gendry stayed there because of the Arya/Hound connection, but rather because it was one of the HQs of the Brotherhood w/o Beric. But you have found a number of what seem to be excellent rationales. My mind is now more open.

On the other hand, I oppose bringing back House Baratheon. If Gendry rises to some kind of Lordship, he needs to establish his own House and Name, free of the Baratheon taint. Maybe "Smith". (heh) When the Tyrells succeeded the Gardners, they didn't change their names, after all. Ditto for the Lannisters not becoming The New Casterlies.

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

On the other hand, I oppose bringing back House Baratheon. If Gendry rises to some kind of Lordship, he needs to establish his own House and Name, free of the Baratheon taint. Maybe "Smith". (heh) When the Tyrells succeeded the Gardners, they didn't change their names, after all. Ditto for the Lannisters not becoming The New Casterlies.

Oh I agree with that. I also do not agree with Chrisdaw's proposed future gendrya arc.

Personally, I think George wrote in Edric and put him safely away in Myr so that he could be the new Lord Baratheon, and thus keep Gendry at liberty to do whatever he likes in the RL and North when it comes to Arya. That said, I'm not entirely sure Gendrya will have a happy together-forever ending. But yeah, acquiring enough respect and an inconsequential title to silence Arya's family, but free from actual lord & lady business is his best shot at a future with her. I think there's hope in Davos's arc. The ship names in the Battle of the Blackwater in Davos's chapter point to Catelyn (Cat), Lady Stonheart (Wraith, etc), Arya (Black Betha, Lady Marya ... well lady Marion) and Gendry (Kingslander, Fury, White Hart). We get an allusion to "twin towers", things heating up between Arya and Gendry and a Lady's Shame. 

But what the hell does Davos have to do with that plot? He doesn't know any of them. I'd say that Davos is a template of Gendry's possible career. They're both Kingslanders, from Flea Bottom. Davos was a smuggler, Gendry's an outlaw. But they both are using these illegal positions to serve kings (BwB were king's men, and will become so again, just another king eventually). And after the Battle of the Blackwater, Davos becomes Lord of Rainwood. It doesn't give him the most profitable lands nor a big castle, but he's a lord now and over a forest, which is odd symbolically since Davos is a seaman. But if it foreshadows how Gendry may end up being a lord over a Riverland forest ( a forest where Nymeria has her pack), or the Wolfswood in the North (also wolf connection)... well you get my drift. 

Titles to please the nobility, inconsequentially a forest to please the tree girl.

Edited by sweetsunray

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Arya was always going to make Jon betray his Order.  So that part of it has played out. Jon commits treason to help Arya.  The Arya in the outline is not the crazed psycho who made in the novels.  I don't believe they will have a fulfilled romantic relations while they are humans.  But as direwolves, it is very possible.  Jon will become the alpha among the small pack of direwolves and wolves after they die.  Arya will be his mate.

On 8/6/2020 at 5:11 PM, Only 89 selfies today said:

Jon and Arya will be together before the end of the books.  It may not play out according to the original outline but they will be together.  I believe they will become mates after they die.  As wolves.  Jon is the third lie that must be slain after all.  And Arya is already dead inside.  Their love for each other will survive death and carry on in whatever form they get for their second lives. 

 

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2 hours ago, Wintersshewolf said:
9 hours ago, Allardyce said:

The Arya in the outline is not the crazed psycho who made in the novels.  

Arya isn't anything close to a psycho in the novels or the outline, so they're the same on that front. But it's clear that the trajectory has changed otherwise

It's really difficult to change the opinion of haters like @Allardyce(one of the many, but the one in question here)

I learnt it very well in the Arya: Psycho/Righteous thread. :(

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On 8/6/2020 at 9:23 PM, Wintersshewolf said:

Since there seemed to be evidence for a Jon and Arya romance in the novels even before the infamous original outline came out with them as the main love story of the series, does anyone still think this is the plan going forward or have the characters not aged up fast enough to get there?

I can go either way on it since I do see the foreshadowing and the intensity of Jon's affection for Arya which seems to dictate the type of women he is attracted to. On the other hand, GRRM seems to dither on the topic here. It could be that he's upset that some aspects of his ending were released, including not just Jon/Arya but Jon's parentage. But he might have also developed the story away from everything in that outline that hasn't happened yet in some way.

Dithered and dithered when a simple No would have sufficed. The outline leaking was always a sore spot for George. 

I just find it interesting that George has these 3 bastards who rise in rank in society (Lord/Commander/Knight) and are all connected to Arya with multiple references to marriages: Alys Karstark who was mistaken/compared to Arya marries at Castle Black, Willow Heddle at the Crossroads Inn/Orphanage looks & acts like Arya, Brienne wonders if she is Arya and Hyle says Willow will likely marry Gendry. Jeyne Poole fArya actually marries Ramsay Bolton.

A pattern. Is this all a coincidence?

The foreshadowing during the battle of the Blackwater is also impactful. I hope someone can do a more in depth analysis.
 

Quote

“Arya Stark?” Tyrion cocked his head. “And Bolton? I might have known Frey would not have the stomach to act alone. But Arya... Varys and Ser Jacelyn searched for her more than half a year. Arya Stark is surely dead.”

“So was Renly, until the Blackwater.”

Arya tries twice so far to write to Jon but situations change and she is unable to follow through. This was the last time:

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She wondered if he would still call her “little sister.” I’m not so little anymore. He’d have to call me something else. Maybe once she got to Riverrun she could write Jon a letter - Arya, ASOS

George's rule of three, I'd say Arya will make a 3rd attempt soon.
 

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"A dragon king from Westeros took her for his lover."

"I would like to see a dragon," Mercy.

Is it fAegon or Jon?

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4 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

You think that's a barrier? Let me introduce you to the harem fic...

LOL!

Sansa seems to get shipped with everyone.  The favourites appear to be Jon, Sandor, Littlefinger, Margaery, Daenerys and Arya. 

But also Tywin, Tyrion, Jaime, Rhaegar, Catelyn (!) and Brienne.  

Edited by SeanF

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2 hours ago, a black swan said:

I just find it interesting that George has these 3 bastards who rise in rank in society (Lord/Commander/Knight) and are all connected to Arya with multiple references to marriages: Alys Karstark who was mistaken/compared to Arya marries at Castle Black, Willow Heddle at the Crossroads Inn/Orphanage looks & acts like Arya, Brienne wonders if she is Arya and Hyle says Willow will likely marry Gendry. Jeyne Poole fArya actually marries Ramsay Bolton.

An Arya stand-in who weds to create a new house

An Arya stand-in to rally forces and battle for... another battle dedicated to Arya, without her even being there. Arya's actions in Braavos will have its influence.

An Arya stand-in as a reminder to keep looking for her.

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13 hours ago, Allardyce said:

I don't believe they will have a fulfilled romantic relations while they are humans.  But as direwolves, it is very possible.  Jon will become the alpha among the small pack of direwolves and wolves after they die.  Arya will be his mate.

Well, genetically speaking, this is much worse than the first cousins scenario of human Arya&Jon. Nymeria and Ghost are full sibs, littermates even! If one is distressed about the incest angle, going with a "direwolf romance" is a big no-no.

In addition to being just wrong. Don't go there.

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my two cents are in no particular order order

1 @sweetsunray as always a joy to read from you. while I mostly Agree on your opinions, then as stated in your first post Arya thinks of Gendry as part of the pack that ran away, the traitors. apart from that it might also just be my bias against utterly overdone pairings(I swear its worse Than Jonsa)

2 as wolfcest go, then no, its not a problem amongst most animals, have you ever seen a stallion try to have it on with his mare, or a cock with his mother(pun not intended)? because I have. in most cases the offspring is fine, I doubt wolfcest is would be a problem.

3 as for alluding to different pairings, then I could in half a minute make a half viable case for arya and ygritte, with how they are constantly compared, as paralels, and paralel lines meet. O gosh what have i done.

4 As for sansa pairings I have yet to see her with either rhaegar brienne or cat, though I can add Robert Baratheon, Harold Hardyng Joffrey and jeyne

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38 minutes ago, wiwerse said:

1 @sweetsunray as always a joy to read from you. while I mostly Agree on your opinions, then as stated in your first post Arya thinks of Gendry as part of the pack that ran away, the traitors. apart from that it might also just be my bias against utterly overdone pairings(I swear its worse Than Jonsa)

Wow, strong word. She never thinks of him as a "traitor", just someone who left her pack. And we have ample signals that he didn't abandon her pack emotionally or mentally, and that he did that to have a slim shot at a future. I doubt Arya will retain any "you abandoned me" sentiments as she grows up some more. The fact that Dunsen is still on her list for stealing Gendry's helmet is enough indication.

Kindof ironic. Amongst the fandom Jonarya was always bigger than Jonsa, and not a minority versus Gendrya. I guess you imply "overdone pairings" as in fan-pairings. I don't care how many fans are pro or anti a pairing. I only care about the ones that an author actually wrote. The pairing is there because of all the groundwork that George laid out, and you don't need to squint your eyes to find them as one needs to do with Jonarya. It may not end happy, but he wrote it in for 2 books of acquaintance and post-separation responses. He does the same for Jon and Val, Sansa and Sandor, Jaime and Brienne.

Make up any pairing in your mind you like, but if you go :ack: because the author spent a lot of chapters on it and readers accept that as a pairing, then you're not discussing the books anymore.

Edited by sweetsunray

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

The fact that Dunsen is still on her list for stealing Gendry's helmet

All is fair in love and war, both of which are in play here. 

Moreover, Dunsen was with Gregor Clegane's company. Not exactly Mother Teresa's charity group. From what we know of them (and him by association. Surely he can't be morally right after being so long in the company of bastards like Raff and Chiswyck) they deserve Arya's gift of mercy. Arya does think of Gendry, but not associate him with the helm (where the fuck is it anyway ??) and Dunsen lately. 

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