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Wintersshewolf

Arya Jon and Arya Still Endgame?

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9 minutes ago, MissM said:

Why are his "siblings" stand-ins for these conflict of the heart tests? 

Threats to Sansa have been there and Jon (and the author) don't seem that interested. Sorry.

Because that's how authors write stories? To make characters conflicted and to make the conflicts hard. 

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Threats to Sansa have been there and Jon (and the author) don't seem that interested. Sorry.

No it does seem like the author is interested. He defended Sansa's birthright against threats from Stannis and refused to recognize her Lannister marriage. Apparently he did it multiple times. Sansa is also right there along with his other siblings when he reads Ramsay's letter. 

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6 hours ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

Direwolves. It doesn't seem fair to get to live again like that.  Let them be porcupines, beetles,  or something like that.  Both are prickly enough.  

Direwolves is too much.  That's almost an honor man.  Turn them into porcupines.

How do porcupines do it?

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Jon's curtain closed.  The fat lady has sung for that boy.  No sexual relations with Arya.  Unless George Martin wants a reverse of the NK-NQ thing.  Like let us say Arya is the Stark drawn to a walking dead Jon Snow.  They become lovers and so on.  

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Because that's how authors write stories?

I don't think George RR has ever been known for following the Hack Writer Bible of How to Write Stories that SELL. Every character doesn't have to undergo parallel situations to other characters. Everybody doesn't have to get paired up (to live happily ever after??) And sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

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1 minute ago, James West said:

Like let us say Arya is the Stark drawn to a walking dead Jon Snow.  They become lovers and so on.  

Okay, that's worse.

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Posted (edited)
Just now, zandru said:

Okay, that's worse.

You have to adjust the way you view this thing.  The Others do not play by the same rules.  Jon will be free to do as he wished.  

I have to be careful about straying from the topic out of respect for @Wintersshewolf but a marriage between a human and an Other may become necessity.  Arya could follow in her Stark ancestors footsteps and marry Jon White Walker.  What if the NK was really a good guy who bought peace with the Others by giving them his sons.  Craster did it.  We know it can be done.

Edited by James West

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18 minutes ago, James West said:

You have to adjust the way you view this thing. 

Maybe I do, but I reject your way. We really don't know as much about the Others as you are assuming. We really don't know the deal with the legendary Night King; was his bride an Other, or just a wight? There is nothing to indicate that this pairing caused peace to break out.

Moreover, if Jon is "reanimated" (shades of H.P.Lovecraft!), why would it turn him into an Other? Nobody else has had this happen, and we've already seen two reanimations via the Power of R'hllor. The Others give every indication of being a different species, like the Giants and Children of the Forest.

Finally, why in the wide wide world of sports would Arya want to marry her brother? I mean, yucko! Boys don't yet appeal to her, and Jon is her BIg Brother.

Don't get too wrapped up in your own head canon, I always say.

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Just now, zandru said:

Maybe I do, but I reject your way. We really don't know as much about the Others as you are assuming. We really don't know the deal with the legendary Night King; was his bride an Other, or just a wight? There is nothing to indicate that this pairing caused peace to break out.

Moreover, if Jon is "reanimated" (shades of H.P.Lovecraft!), why would it turn him into an Other? Nobody else has had this happen, and we've already seen two reanimations via the Power of R'hllor. The Others give every indication of being a different species, like the Giants and Children of the Forest.

Finally, why in the wide wide world of sports would Arya want to marry her brother? I mean, yucko! Boys don't yet appeal to her, and Jon is her BIg Brother.

Don't get too wrapped up in your own head canon, I always say.

Reject away.  It's your choice.  I will stand by my belief that Jon will be brought back by the Others, if he is brought back at all.  He and Arya will meet again.  And they will be together in this way.  

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The Ygritte quote is, like a lot of pointed quotes in Jon's chapters, seeding for the inevitable coming together with Dany.

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"He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters."

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Mother of dragons, Daenerys thought. Mother of monsters. What have I unleashed upon the world? A queen I am, but my throne is made of burned bones, and it rests on quicksand. Without dragons, how could she hope to hold Meereen, much less win back Westeros? I am the blood of the dragon, she thought. If they are monsters, so am I.

Targaryen incest = dragons = monsters.

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

I don't think George RR has ever been known for following the Hack Writer Bible of How to Write Stories that SELL. Every character doesn't have to undergo parallel situations to other characters. Everybody doesn't have to get paired up (to live happily ever after??) And sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Pairing? All I said was that Jon cares about all of his siblings and has violated oaths and loyalties for his family. Since he's already done it for Arya, Bran, Robb, Rickon - I think he'll do it for Sansa as well. It's really not that big of a deal. If folks hate Sansa and want Jon to burn her alive they should just say it.

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Pairing? All I said was that Jon cares about all of his siblings

Wholeheartedly agree, Jon cares for all his siblings and the rest of his family. This is made abundantly clear when he reads the PL in Tormund’s presence.

ADwD, Jon XIII

“Snow?” said Tormund Giantsbane. “You look like your father’s bloody head just rolled out o’ that paper.

<snip>

“Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night’s Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …
I think we had best change the plan,” Jon Snow said.”

 

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

and has violated oaths and loyalties for his family. Since he's already done it for Arya, Bran, Robb, Rickon - I think he'll do it for Sansa as well. It's really not that big of a deal. If folks hate Sansa and want Jon to burn her alive they should just say it.

The oaths part can be seen in different ways. If he did break his vows, he was absolutely right to do so. He did the right thing, not the easy thing, “I can’t do anything b/c vows”- In this situation all I can say is fuck the damn vows - words are wind! It’s actions that matter, and anyone who knows of a young girl being held hostage, tortured, and raped by a psycho and does nothing b/c “my vows” is a spineless PoS who deserves to become Ramsay’s next pet. Also worth mentioning is that he isn’t going to Winterfell, he is going to ride out to try to find Ramsay. Otherwise he wouldn't think:

“Horse and Rory fell in beside Jon as he left the Shieldhall. I should talk with Melisandre after I see the queen, he thought. If she could see a raven in a storm, she can find Ramsay Snow for me.”

Jon clearly believes in Ramsay’s threats, and if he thought Ramsay would be in Winterfell, he would not think about going to Mel b/c she should be able to find Ramsay for him. Ramsay, dumb fucking impulsive psycho that he is, repeats that “he wants his bride back”. And while Jon may think Mel was wrong about Alys being Arya, the fact that Ramsay the eejit says he wants his bride back points to fArya having escaped somehow, which is all the more reason for him to not go to Winterfell. He wants to intercept Ramsay before he gets to CB and demands CB’s guests. And since the moron told Jon he wants his bride back, Jon can make an educated guess that fArya escaped and could be trying to get to CB as well. 
Receiving the PL is a crucial moment, because it’s when Jon “kills the boy and let the man be born”, but in his own way. Killing the boy is about making the hard choices that lead to good actions. 
I know people like to take maester Aemon’s words about this, and “love is the death of duty” as an undisputed truth. Martin is very tricksy... He gives us a loveable old wise man saying these things to Jon, and most assume maester Aemon is right. But he isn’t. Who knows if things wouldn’t have gone differently for the Targs if Aemon had chosen love over duty? And let’s not forget that Martin is a romantic, someone who believes in love, and, from the story and personal interviews, he is not someone who thinks one should turn their backs to  people in horrible situations because “I swore a vow”. It’s the exact same thing as someone saying, “I didn’t do anything, I was just following orders!” YIKES. 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Because that's how authors write stories? To make characters conflicted and to make the conflicts hard. 

That doesn't answer my question. Why does the conflict have to involve all his "siblings"? That doesn't happen in the example of Aemon which you brought up. You might be a little confused. 

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No it does seem like the author is interested. He defended Sansa's birthright against threats from Stannis and refused to recognize her Lannister marriage. Apparently he did it multiple times. Sansa is also right there along with his other siblings when he reads Ramsay's letter. 

Jon declined the offer of Lordship from Stannis which both proved he wasn't the usurping bastard Catelyn always thought he was. He refused to recognize her marriage? Come again? Oh. Was it that time Jon was thinking fondly of his friendship with Tyrion after he received news from the King's Road about Tywin's death at the hands of Tyrion? What a threat. Apparently he did what multiple times? Where. :D

Again, like the example you gave, Aemon was tested 3 times and so was Jon. Those tests on the Wall are over now that he's dead and his watch has likely ended. 

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Pairing? All I said was that Jon cares about all of his siblings and has violated oaths and loyalties for his family. Since he's already done it for Arya, Bran, Robb, Rickon - I think he'll do it for Sansa as well. It's really not that big of a deal. If folks hate Sansa and want Jon to burn her alive they should just say it.

Lets be clear Jon does care about all his family no one is denying that. It's just a matter of degrees. To be frank, Robb, Arya and Bran were the 3 siblings he said Goodbye to when he left for the Wall. Robb, Bran (Rickon by extension because he was just there) and Arya were his trials of the heart/vows. 

Edited by MissM

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Just now, sweetsunray said:

With regards to Jon's tests... He has had more than 3 trials of the heart/vows. Ygritte versus the Wall is left out.

There’s the offer Stannis makes as well. There are, in fact, several tests.

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Just now, kissdbyfire said:

There’s the offer Stannis makes as well. There are, in fact, several tests.

Excatly. Jon is tested on his morals, his ethics, his vows and his heart numerous times. To scale them down to "3 tests" makes me go :huh:

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26 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Excatly. Jon is tested on his morals, his ethics, his vows and his heart numerous times. To scale them down to "3 tests" makes me go :huh:

I think part of it is again because of maester Aemon... he tells Jon was tested three times, so Jon not only must be tested three times, but make the same decision as well. :dunno:

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think part of it is again because of maester Aemon... he tells Jon was tested three times, so Jon not only must be tested three times, but make the same decision as well. :dunno:

And maester Aemon was tested again, too, when he learned of Dany and her dragons, and he himself came to another decision: he basically wanted to desert and disobey his order, to be with her, believing her to be Azor Ahai reborn (who might or might not help against the Others).

Edited by sweetsunray

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11 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And maester Aemon was tested again, too, when he learned of Dany and her dragons, and he himself came to another decision: he basically wanted to desert and disobey his order, to be with her, believing her to be Azor Ahai reborn (who might or might not help against the Others).

Exactly that! :cheers:

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13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I know people like to take maester Aemon’s words about this, and “love is the death of duty” as an undisputed truth. Martin is very tricksy... He gives us a loveable old wise man saying these things to Jon, and most assume maester Aemon is right. But he isn’t. Who knows if things wouldn’t have gone differently for the Targs if Aemon had chosen love over duty? And let’s not forget that Martin is a romantic, someone who believes in love, and, from the story and personal interviews, he is not someone who thinks one should turn their backs to  people in horrible situations because “I swore a vow”. It’s the exact same thing as someone saying, “I didn’t do anything, I was just following orders!” YIKES. 

Yes, and love of whom? Duty to what? These things are just going to get more complicated and overlapping. It was relatively easy to choose killing Ramsay, it wasnt that hard of a test for him. 

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3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yes, and love of whom? Duty to what? These things are just going to get more complicated and overlapping. It was relatively easy to choose killing Ramsay, it wasnt that hard of a test for him. 

It was a hard test for Jon because it was about a lot more than just "killing Ramsay". This is even part of his questioning to himself when he asks his brothers for help. What Jon is doing is actually tapping back in to what the vows actually mean, saving humanity in any "realm", and the decision to make a preemptive strike to stop Ramsay (killed or captured then trialed), is about Jon acting out a larger duty. It wasn't an easy choice because of him being caught between trying to appease "Kings", Melisandre's tricky words, and stopping an incoming threat from the Others and Ramsay about to add to the wight population if Jon doesn't act. Jon chose the more altruistic act of thwarting these vows, supposed rules of conformity, accepting the stigma, and he acted in a manner that he postulates will do the most good in the immediate situation (not that it will solve everything, but that this battle will be over before THE war begins).

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