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Arya Jon and Arya Still Endgame?

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17 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The irony is that you claim that he "gets away with protecting his family because it aligns with his NW mission to protect the realm. I point out how Jon was never in any position to "protect his family" in particular. You're making gross claims that just completely miss out on the story.

The story I see is that the love for family is just building to a moment when he really WILL need to make a choice to protect them. Its like the "unnecessary" efforts are just plot groundwork for the real deal. Readers have picked up on hints for Jon killing Dany. Why do you think he might do that? Jon's family is in his thoughts after he reads the Pink Letter. Jon's nightmares center on an empty, abandoned Winterfell. I'm not saying he's exclusively thinking about his family at every second, but it's not just "the realm" that motivates him like some perfect knight either (thankfully zzzzzz). 

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14 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I'm not saying he's exclusively thinking about his family at every second, but it's not just "the realm" that motivates him like some perfect knight either (thankfully zzzzzz). 

Well, and none of us ever claimed the "realm" is his sole motivation. That's what you keep making out of it as our viewpoint, when it's not. The poster in this exchange who has a narrow point of interest to Jon as a character is you. You admitted several times your sole interest in is Jon as family man and some warped idea that conflicts of the heart are exclusively family related, conveniently forgetting about Ygritte and Val (who are very inconvenient for your Jonsa shipping). Since you are solely interested in Jon with family, you then presume that anyone who recognizes Jon as getting increasingly motivated to protect the realm, as someone who is only interested in that and rejects Jon as having family motive. You're projecting your own narrow interest onto other readers, and therefore arguing a straw man.

Furthermore you seem to confuse "thinking of family" as "taking action to protect his family", which might explain how you somehow have come to believe that "Jon protecting his family has conveniently always aligned with his vows as NW man and motivation to protect the realm" (paraphrasing). Sure, from the first chapters in aGoT at the Wall, his family has been often in Jon's mind. But thinking is not the same as acting, and there are several instances where he thinks of wanting to help, feels helpless and does not act, nor is in a position to act. Or do you somehow believe that if "Jon thinks it, it'll happen"?????

Jon has also often felt as if acting on his desire to protect or help his family would be in direct opposition of his vows to protect the realm, and it often was. Your claim how lucky Jon has been so far that it all aligned and that he never has had a dealbreaking serious conflict between duty/vows and family so far is just absolute poppycock. It makes me seriously question what of Jon's chapters have you actually read. Guess, not much, because 3/4 of his arc doesn't interest you -

  • aGoT arc at the Wall: Others and wights... boring for you
  • aCoK: north of the Wall and getting to know Ygritte... more boring for you
  • aSoS: more north of the Wall, even worse - still more Ygritte - and defending the Wall against attacks, dealing with Mance and getting elected LC ... total boring snoozefest for you
  • aDwD: all that tedious stuff about recruiting, feeding people, manning castles, acquiring loans, oh and having the total hots for Val, and an effing mutiny where people attempt to assassinate Jon .... you slept through all that of course because it was soooo boring

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45 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, and none of us ever claimed the "realm" is his sole motivation. That's what you keep making out of it as our viewpoint, when it's not. The poster in this exchange who has a narrow point of interest to Jon as a character is you. You admitted several times your sole interest in is Jon as family man and some warped idea that conflicts of the heart are exclusively family related, conveniently forgetting about Ygritte and Val (who are very inconvenient for your Jonsa shipping). Since you are solely interested in Jon with family, you then presume that anyone who recognizes Jon as getting increasingly motivated to protect the realm, as someone who is only interested in that and rejects Jon as having family motive. You're projecting your own narrow interest onto other readers, and therefore arguing a straw man.

Furthermore you seem to confuse "thinking of family" as "taking action to protect his family", which might explain how you somehow have come to believe that "Jon protecting his family has conveniently always aligned with his vows as NW man and motivation to protect the realm" (paraphrasing). Sure, from the first chapters in aGoT at the Wall, his family has been often in Jon's mind. But thinking is not the same as acting, and there are several instances where he thinks of wanting to help, feels helpless and does not act, nor is in a position to act. Or do you somehow believe that if "Jon thinks it, it'll happen"?????

Jon has also often felt as if acting on his desire to protect or help his family would be in direct opposition of his vows to protect the realm, and it often was. Your claim how lucky Jon has been so far that it all aligned and that he never has had a dealbreaking serious conflict between duty/vows and family so far is just absolute poppycock. It makes me seriously question what of Jon's chapters have you actually read. Guess, not much, because 3/4 of his arc doesn't interest you -

  • aGoT arc at the Wall: Others and wights... boring for you
  • aCoK: north of the Wall and getting to know Ygritte... more boring for you
  • aSoS: more north of the Wall, even worse - still more Ygritte - and defending the Wall against attacks, dealing with Mance and getting elected LC ... total boring snoozefest for you
  • aDwD: all that tedious stuff about recruiting, feeding people, manning castles, acquiring loans, oh and having the total hots for Val, and an effing mutiny where people attempt to assassinate Jon .... you slept through all that of course because it was soooo boring

:agree:

I'm gonna quote this post for every damn hater who says Jon took only his family seriously and not his duty. 

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2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, and none of us ever claimed the "realm" is his sole motivation. That's what you keep making out of it as our viewpoint, when it's not. The poster in this exchange who has a narrow point of interest to Jon as a character is you. You admitted several times your sole interest in is Jon as family man and some warped idea that conflicts of the heart are exclusively family related, conveniently forgetting about Ygritte and Val (who are very inconvenient for your Jonsa shipping). Since you are solely interested in Jon with family, you then presume that anyone who recognizes Jon as getting increasingly motivated to protect the realm, as someone who is only interested in that and rejects Jon as having family motive. You're projecting your own narrow interest onto other readers, and therefore arguing a straw man.

Furthermore you seem to confuse "thinking of family" as "taking action to protect his family", which might explain how you somehow have come to believe that "Jon protecting his family has conveniently always aligned with his vows as NW man and motivation to protect the realm" (paraphrasing). Sure, from the first chapters in aGoT at the Wall, his family has been often in Jon's mind. But thinking is not the same as acting, and there are several instances where he thinks of wanting to help, feels helpless and does not act, nor is in a position to act. Or do you somehow believe that if "Jon thinks it, it'll happen"?????

Jon has also often felt as if acting on his desire to protect or help his family would be in direct opposition of his vows to protect the realm, and it often was. Your claim how lucky Jon has been so far that it all aligned and that he never has had a dealbreaking serious conflict between duty/vows and family so far is just absolute poppycock. It makes me seriously question what of Jon's chapters have you actually read. Guess, not much, because 3/4 of his arc doesn't interest you -

  • aGoT arc at the Wall: Others and wights... boring for you
  • aCoK: north of the Wall and getting to know Ygritte... more boring for you
  • aSoS: more north of the Wall, even worse - still more Ygritte - and defending the Wall against attacks, dealing with Mance and getting elected LC ... total boring snoozefest for you
  • aDwD: all that tedious stuff about recruiting, feeding people, manning castles, acquiring loans, oh and having the total hots for Val, and an effing mutiny where people attempt to assassinate Jon .... you slept through all that of course because it was soooo boring

Jon is trying to protect the realm and his loved ones.

I think one can argue that Jon (like Daenerys) has bitten off more than he can chew.  He's playing three or four-dimensional chess in ADWD, and he actually does it rather brilliantly.  His proxy war against the Boltons, via Stannis, is really impressive, as are his efforts to save the wildlings and man the Wall.

His big mistake is not to see the need to persuade those members of the Nights Watch who disagree with him.  He sees them as hidebound fools (which they are) but never realises that they might strike him down.

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Martin's proposal had Sansa choosing Joffrey over her own family and later regretting it.  I recall a love triangle that had Jon, Arya, and Tyrion in it.  The Lannisters destroyed Winterfell in that version.  Jon was set up to betray his duties and get involved with Arya.  Some version of this will happen.  Say Arya and Jon meet up and say to hell with it.  They leave all of their responsibilities behind and shack up in one of the castles on the wall.  Boneheads like Dolorous Edd would follow Jon even if he abandons his post. 

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Well, and none of us ever claimed the "realm" is his sole motivation. That's what you keep making out of it as our viewpoint, when it's not. 

That was a mess of assumptions about why I keep bringing up family. Let me lay it all out. And no it's not about shipping (cheap shot btw). Jon is on a dangerous path. Jon haters waste time on "neutrality this, neutrality that," but his fans hand-wave the foreshadowing for him becoming a tyrant and potentially losing his humanity. Considering: his dream where his friends have abandoned him and he's killing everyone he loves and screaming that he's the Lord of Winterfell; taking offense to Pyp's quite lighthearted jokes about Mel and attempting to control what he says; how he treats Gilly; how he sends all his friends away with the walls closing in (“My last friend”); GRRM's statements about resurrected people not coming back nicer, upgraded (i.e. weaknesses/flaws ENHANCED); never questioning the idolization of (classic shithead conqueror) Daeron, and most importantly, having the same imagery about hearts turning to stone as Stoneheart and Dany. Then there is Jon allying with any-ole person who shows up at the Wall with men. While Stannis isn't that bad and actually has honor, there is also a Targaryen out there wanting to bring hellfire to Westeros. Jon has the potential to create a situation in which his family and the realm is truly at risk because of his own actions. So it's important to have family as his lifeline to pull him back from that. That's a damn good barometer for him swinging too far into tyrant territory. And that's why I'm more interested in family at the moment. I really enjoy Jon's chapters but I don't enjoy this more "tyrannical Jon" that I see seeds planted for.

And what I meant by his loyalties aligning is that his work at the Watch protects the realm and indirectly his family.  Then you add on how killing Ramsay is also protecting the realm - while saving free folk - while fighting zombies - while gaining an army - while helping his sister - at the end of it, what in the world kind of hard choice is this, in a story all about choices and consequences? Betraying Ygritte was harder. In fact, Jon thinking he can do it all is just leading to "I alone can do it" syndrome - another seed for tyranny.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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On 8/9/2020 at 9:29 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Arya is just a proxy for family, for difficult choices Jon will have to make because he’s very sensitive to threats to them. He first had to confront a choice with Robb and left the Watch for him. He then had to make it when he realized the wildlings were a threat to Bran and Rickon. Arya was next with Ramsay. Threats to Sansa will be incoming; I’m interested to see how that turns out. 

No. Arya isn't just a proxy for anything. Whether Jon and Arya will become romantic or remain exceptionally close siblings might be up for debate, but there is no rational way to interpret Arya as being "just" anything when it comes to Jon. She certainly isn't a stand in for the whole family. That would assume that he cares about her on equal level with everyone else, which he himself specifically thinks isn't true. He misses her the most and we can see the difference between how he feels about her supposed marriage and how he doesn't care about Sansa being in the same situation. Threats to Sansa have already come. They didn't phase him. Jon cares about his family on differing levels. Arya is at the top.

Also, in mentioning Jon's initial choice on leaving the Watch in AGOT, you forget that it wasn't just for Robb:

Quote

 

"You heard me. I mean to find Ben Stark, alive or dead." He chewed and swallowed. "I will not sit here meekly and wait for the snows and the ice winds. We must know what is happening. This time the Night's Watch will ride in force, against the King-beyond-the-Wall, the Others, and anything else that may be out there. I mean to command them myself." He pointed his dagger at Jon's chest. "By custom, the Lord Commander's steward is his squire as well … but I do not care to wake every dawn wondering if you've run off again. So I will have an answer from you, Lord Snow, and I will have it now. Are you a brother of the Night's Watch … or only a bastard boy who wants to play at war?"
Jon Snow straightened himself and took a long deep breath. Forgive me, Father. Robb, Arya, Bran … forgive me, I cannot help you. He has the truth of it. This is my place. "I am … yours, my lord. Your man. I swear it. I will not run again."

 

This wasn't a struggle only about deserting for Robb, this was about Ned, Robb, Arya, and Bran as well. It's specific in his thoughts. Note that Sansa is also in danger, while Bran (and Rickon) isn't. Yet these are the ones who take priority in his thoughts. Jon Snow has favorites and he is not subtle about it.

This topic really got off track, didn't it.

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5 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

That was a mess of assumptions about why I keep bringing up family. Let me lay it all out. And no it's not about shipping (cheap shot btw). Jon is on a dangerous path. Jon haters waste time on "neutrality this, neutrality that," but his fans hand-wave the foreshadowing for him becoming a tyrant and potentially losing his humanity. Considering: his dream where his friends have abandoned him and he's killing everyone he loves and screaming that he's the Lord of Winterfell; taking offense to Pyp's quite lighthearted jokes about Mel and attempting to control what he says; how he treats Gilly; how he sends all his friends away with the walls closing in (“My last friend”); GRRM's statements about resurrected people not coming back nicer, upgraded (i.e. weaknesses/flaws ENHANCED); never questioning the idolization of (classic shithead conqueror) Daeron, and most importantly, having the same imagery about hearts turning to stone as Stoneheart and Dany. Then there is Jon allying with any-ole person who shows up at the Wall with men. While Stannis isn't that bad and actually has honor, there is also a Targaryen out there wanting to bring hellfire to Westeros. Jon has the potential to create a situation in which his family and the realm is truly at risk because of his own actions. So it's important to have family as his lifeline to pull him back from that. That's a damn good barometer for him swinging too far into tyrant territory. And that's why I'm more interested in family at the moment. I really enjoy Jon's chapters but I don't enjoy this more "tyrannical Jon" that I see seeds planted for.

And what I meant by his loyalties aligning is that his work at the Watch protects the realm and indirectly his family.  Then you add on how killing Ramsay is also protecting the realm - while saving free folk - while fighting zombies - while gaining an army - while helping his sister - at the end of it, what in the world kind of hard choice is this, in a story all about choices and consequences? Betraying Ygritte was harder. In fact, Jon thinking he can do it all is just leading to "I alone can do it" syndrome - another seed for tyranny.

Jon is a hard young man, in ADWD, and doubtless will be more ruthless when resurrected.  And that is exactly what the North (and the entire realm) will need in the face of the threat posed by the Others.  A good military leader must indeed be willing to make a stone of his heart.  Jon has shown that he is prepared to ally with the most horrible leaders among the Free Folk for the greater good.  And, he is right to do so.

Jon will be like one of the Stark kings of old, reborn.

Edited by SeanF

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18 hours ago, Jeeves said:

Martin's proposal had Sansa choosing Joffrey over her own family and later regretting it.  I recall a love triangle that had Jon, Arya, and Tyrion in it.  The Lannisters destroyed Winterfell in that version.  Jon was set up to betray his duties and get involved with Arya.  Some version of this will happen.  Say Arya and Jon meet up and say to hell with it.  They leave all of their responsibilities behind and shack up in one of the castles on the wall.  Boneheads like Dolorous Edd would follow Jon even if he abandons his post. 

All of that has sort of already happened. Winterfell has been sacked and razed, but by Theon instead of the Lannisters. And Jon was leaving the Wall to save Arya. Though, I suppose if he dies and gets revived, he might get stuck on the idea of saving Arya, just like Berric was obsessed with the task he'd being doing before he died.

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On 8/15/2020 at 2:26 PM, Jeeves said:

Martin's proposal had Sansa choosing Joffrey over her own family and later regretting it.  I recall a love triangle that had Jon, Arya, and Tyrion in it.  The Lannisters destroyed Winterfell in that version.  Jon was set up to betray his duties and get involved with Arya.  Some version of this will happen.  Say Arya and Jon meet up and say to hell with it.  They leave all of their responsibilities behind and shack up in one of the castles on the wall.  Boneheads like Dolorous Edd would follow Jon even if he abandons his post. 

Jon already betrayed the night's watch.  He is not going to be welcomed back.  A love threesome with Jon, Arya, and Gendry is more likely.  Arya could kill Tyrion before he can make love to her.  Gendry is Arya's guy #2.  He will fall in love with her and will have to make a choice.  Sacrifice her for a lightbringer or make do without the weapon. 

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27 minutes ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

Jon already betrayed the night's watch.  He is not going to be welcomed back.

Lord Snow was beloved by the Night's Watch. There were just a few gripers, and I don't think they will do well in the panic and rage that will erupt at Castle Black when Jon's body is found

31 minutes ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

A love threesome with Jon, Arya, and Gendry is more likely.

For the five hundredth time, a Jon-Arya sibling match is just gross. She's his "little sister", he's her "big brother." That's how they think of one another. And Gendry will really have to up his game, if he thinks he can attract Arya's attention. She likes him well enough, but thinks he's a dumb boob.

33 minutes ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

[Gendry] will fall in love with [Arya] and will have to make a choice.  Sacrifice her for a lightbringer or make do without the weapon. 

I think the whole Lightbringer mcguffin is just a diversion, and the concept of using a woman as a quench basin is beyond gross. Nobody knows anything about this "Azor Ahai" and his "Lightbringer" miracle sword except for Melisandre and her converts. It's not a Westerosi thing. The excessive grossness of the story fits in well with what we know about Essos societies, with their slavery, mass castrations, spectacle fights to the death, dog meat at every meal, and generalized brutality, which they consider "refined."

It won't happen in Westeros. I'm saddened that Stannis sold out his soul for this dreck and nonsense. Also, Gendry doesn't use a sword. He's a hammer man.

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On 8/6/2020 at 5:11 PM, Only 89 selfies today said:

Jon and Arya will be together before the end of the books.  It may not play out according to the original outline but they will be together.  I believe they will become mates after they die.  As wolves.  Jon is the third lie that must be slain after all.  And Arya is already dead inside.  Their love for each other will survive death and carry on in whatever form they get for their second lives. 

:agree:

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13 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

That was a mess of assumptions about why I keep bringing up family. Let me lay it all out. And no it's not about shipping (cheap shot btw). Jon is on a dangerous path. Jon haters waste time on "neutrality this, neutrality that," but his fans hand-wave the foreshadowing for him becoming a tyrant and potentially losing his humanity.

There's no foreshadowing of him becoming a tyrant or losing humanity. There is foreshadowing that he will be ruthless against the obstinate, blind cowards who don't want to listen to reason. Good for him! It's about time, some Stark put shit back to right, or Westerosis end up like the dodo.

13 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Considering: his dream where his friends have abandoned him and he's killing everyone he loves and screaming that he's the Lord of Winterfell;

You mean this one?

Quote

 

That night he dreamt of wildlings howling from the woods, advancing to the moan of warhorns and the roll of drums. Boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM came the sound, a thousand hearts with a single beat. Some had spears and some had bows and some had axes. Others rode on chariots made of bones, drawn by teams of dogs as big as ponies. Giants lumbered amongst them, forty feet tall, with mauls the size of oak trees.

"Stand fast," Jon Snow called. "Throw them back." He stood atop the Wall, alone. "Flame," he cried, "feed them flame," but there was no one to pay heed.

They are all gone. They have abandoned me.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared.
The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled … (aDwD, Jon XII)

 

 
His friends haven't abandoned him. It is Jon's interpretation: he feels abandoned, feels he is left to defend the wall all by himself. The dead friends in it represent imo Jon feeling responsible these friends and lovers and family are dead, which is typical for an empathic person - to feel responsible when you're not. Ygritte made her own choices and took her own risks. Donal Noye had the wall and decided to go down, commanded Jon to take the wall. He had to kill Qhorin on Qhorin's own order. Ygritte shot Dick Follard during the attack on CB. Robb was murdered at the Red Wedding. Even if Jon had made other choices - choices to go to them, stay with them, etc - it would not have changed things.
 
It's also a warning dream, not about what Jon becomes, but what is actually coming - the Others and wights (which imo are actually present the night of the assassination attempt). The one who wakes him is the raven, but in the dream the raven is the gnarled hand, suggesting an intervention by either Bloodraven or Bran to wake him. Jon armored in black ice symbolizes how Jon and the Wall are "one". Jon is the wall, and the wall is Jon. Jeor Mormont too had warning and alarming dreams. Seems the Wall might be communicating in some way with its LC.
 
And if we believe that Robb made Jon his heir, then yeah, Jon is the Lord of Winterfell.
 
13 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

taking offense to Pyp's quite lighthearted jokes about Mel and attempting to control what he says;

He doesn't take offense. He realizes that Pyp's jokes about Mel in the wrong ears could cause trouble; he reminds Pyp of this and he still considers it a joke, and Pyp takes offense that Jon cannot be just one of the lads anymore. He is Pyp's superior now. That scene depicts quite realistically the utter difference of perspective between the manager and employers. It's also a very sad scene - his position necessitates that his relations alter. And sitting down with them was the mistake. Perhaps a dais system would have been a far better option.

13 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

how he treats Gilly; how he sends all his friends away with the walls closing in (“My last friend”);

What do you mean with "treating"? The baby switch or his interaction with her?

Whether or not he should have sent them to the other castles or not is another debatable issue. This may have been a decision that went too far, perhaps not necessary, but keeping them at CB coud have backfired too. We already witness Pyp mocking Jon for being LC, and there's nothing more harming to a leader with enemies as having former friends mocking and sabotaging your position. I do think he did that for his own comfort, not to be confronted daily with the inevitable change and loss his position caused - a selfish reason. On the other hand, he managed to establish good relations with most of the NW brothers he wasn't friends with before this and amongst the new recruits, and that without the painful issue of suddenly being the boss of your former compatriots. This shows that he's not a cold and unempathic leader.

13 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

GRRM's statements about resurrected people not coming back nicer, upgraded (i.e. weaknesses/flaws ENHANCED); never questioning the idolization of (classic shithead conqueror) Daeron, and most importantly, having the same imagery about hearts turning to stone as Stoneheart and Dany. 

First, I'm not convinced Jon is dead. Secondly, it's not a time to be "nice". Being "nice" gets you killed.

I'm not a fan of Daeron, but he was a tactical strategic genius.

Where is the imagery that Jon's heart turns to "stone"? Are you referring to Bran's dream. If so, it says...

Quote

He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.

The image literally mentions Jon growing cold, ice cold. It's not the same as a "stone" heart. It might not seem that much different to you, you might interprete that as being the same thing. I don't. Ice can melt and thaw again. Petrification is something else entirely. 

13 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Then there is Jon allying with any-ole person who shows up at the Wall with men. While Stannis isn't that bad and actually has honor, there is also a Targaryen out there wanting to bring hellfire to Westeros.

LOL, first you criticise him for changing, but then you project he won't change or evolve after aDwD. Okay.

13 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

And what I meant by his loyalties aligning is that his work at the Watch protects the realm and indirectly his family.  Then you add on how killing Ramsay is also protecting the realm - while saving free folk - while fighting zombies - while gaining an army - while helping his sister - at the end of it, what in the world kind of hard choice is this, in a story all about choices and consequences?

It took him half a book to come to the decision that taking Ramsay out is the sole way to protect the realm. Seems long enough to make that choice. And the consequence he experienced right after.

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34 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

There's no foreshadowing of him becoming a tyrant or losing humanity. There is foreshadowing that he will be ruthless against the obstinate, blind cowards who don't want to listen to reason. Good for him! It's about time, some Stark put shit back to right, or Westerosis end up like the dodo.

 

Tyrant or not, humanity can survive tyrants.  Humanity cannot survive the threat that comes from the Others.

Perhaps Jon (and Daenerys?) will be like the Soviet commanders in WWII, handing down their own version of Not One Step Back, executing deserters, dragooning people to serve in the front line, refusing to accept any excuse from those unwilling to fight or support the war effort.  And, those are the people you need in charge, when fighting a desperate war.  But, those are not the qualities you want in peacetime leaders, so perhaps there is no place for either of them once the war is won.

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16 hours ago, SeanF said:

Tyrant or not, humanity can survive tyrants.  Humanity cannot survive the threat that comes from the Others.

Perhaps Jon (and Daenerys?) will be like the Soviet commanders in WWII, handing down their own version of Not One Step Back, executing deserters, dragooning people to serve in the front line, refusing to accept any excuse from those unwilling to fight or support the war effort.  And, those are the people you need in charge, when fighting a desperate war.  But, those are not the qualities you want in peacetime leaders, so perhaps there is no place for either of them once the war is won.

Well, Jon's a military commander. His title is Lord Commander. He's the equivalent of a general. He may have been elected democratically, by vote, but once he's voted in, his leadership isn't supposed to be a democratic one, but a singly authority one. Generals can inquire with their colonels about their ideas, but utlimately the chain of command is what it is, and the chief commander has chief and sole command. I don't get where this kumbaya-around-the-campfire-and-lets-be-friends or the expectation of "democratic leadership" from readers come from.

And this goes for the expectation to "convince everyone". A) It's plain impossible to convince everyone in a group or organisation or team on everything and always. Anyone who has been in a position to lead a group/team/organisation knows there always will be people who will have their own opinion and feelings and will disagree, no matter what - because they're pathologically selfish, or they're going through something that makes them egocentrical so they remain unreasonable as well as incapable of recognizing how the issue lies within and not outside, or they are irresponsible, or they just are hung up on something and are incapable of getting over themselves. They're not always bad people, but they're in a bad place and will not see reason within the allotted time. It's quite a sad realization when you're in a leading position, to consider certain people a lost cause of your efforts, but sometimes that is the sole conclusion left. Nobody blames Jeor for being unable to convince Chett of what is the right thing to do. Nobody blames Jeor for being unable to make the mutineers at Craster's see reason. Wick and Bowen aren't as bad as the prior men, but they are in a mental and emotional place (grief for one, fear and closemindedness for the other) that would require years to make them see, and Jon simply doesn't have that time. He gives up on Bowen the same day that the Pink Letter arrives and imo the Others are at the other side of the Wall, waiting for his blood to be drawn and to use that wounding of the wall to wightify the whole lichyard of CB.

It's because of the reality that there always will be people who cannot be convinced that the NW has a totalitarian military chain of command. Only one guy can be at the helm.

And yeah, a war against the Others for humanity, requires a ruthless King of Winter who won't tolerate shenanigans, stupidity, and cannot afford not to send his men into dangerous suicidal missions.

ETA: I agree that's not necessarily the quality required for the summertime.

Edited by sweetsunray

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On 8/16/2020 at 3:37 PM, Targaryen Restoration said:

Jon already betrayed the night's watch.  He is not going to be welcomed back.  A love threesome with Jon, Arya, and Gendry is more likely.  Arya could kill Tyrion before he can make love to her.  Gendry is Arya's guy #2.  He will fall in love with her and will have to make a choice.  Sacrifice her for a lightbringer or make do without the weapon. 

Gendry is a craftsman.  He's the right person to rediscover how to make Valyrian metal.  Arya is his potential love interest.  He tempers the blade with Arya's blood.  I can see this happening. 

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On 8/16/2020 at 4:17 PM, zandru said:

Lord Snow was beloved by the Night's Watch. There were just a few gripers, and I don't think they will do well in the panic and rage that will erupt at Castle Black when Jon's body is found

I have to disagree with you.  :(  The men of the watch will support what Bowen and his crew did.  They needed to stop Jon.  Asking him to stop would not work.  The men who assassinated Jon were correct to do so.  Most of the crows would see that.  

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On 8/15/2020 at 2:26 PM, Jeeves said:

Martin's proposal had Sansa choosing Joffrey over her own family and later regretting it.  I recall a love triangle that had Jon, Arya, and Tyrion in it.  The Lannisters destroyed Winterfell in that version.  Jon was set up to betray his duties and get involved with Arya.  Some version of this will happen.  Say Arya and Jon meet up and say to hell with it.  They leave all of their responsibilities behind and shack up in one of the castles on the wall.  Boneheads like Dolorous Edd would follow Jon even if he abandons his post. 

Some already took place if somewhat differently. 

Tyrion is already married to Sansa.  He won't be involved in a love triangle with Arya.  But Gendry is available.  The conflict between Gendry and Jon could be interesting.  Gendry needs more drama in his life. 

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 It's one thing not to want a theory to happen, it's another to accept the facts about whether it will happen or not. I see some people often say, "I don't want it, so I prefer to ignore every evidence that exists," by their actions. Anyway.

There are so many hints about it. 

 

Of course, I do not have a 100% claim, but I think this situation continues. If you look at the review here, you can see that GRRM has stayed faitfull to the storyline in general, and even some important plots. I already quoted it there, GRRM also said that the plot didn't deviate much, it just the story is extended.

For example; by whom was Winterfell burned in the letter? Tyrion, Lannisters. With whom did Jon fought for Arya? Tyrion.

Let's look at the books now. Who was Winterfell burned by? Ramsay, Boltons. With whom did Jon fought for Arya and will he fight in the next book? Ramsay!

"I want my bride back!"

As you can see, GRRM kept the same plot, only swapping Tyrion and Ramsay. He kept the warm relationship between Jon and Arya, kept Needle (jon gave it). GRRM has kept the plot where Jon is split between his vows and desire to help his family / Arya... and go on.

Now it is difficult to argue that this plot is completely abandoned while all this is on the table.

Even Jon's plot in book 5 is entirely based on Arya. Jon eventually dies because of Arya, and Arya is the "anchor" that Jon will need to return from the dead.

You can check here my comment about the anchor thing.

 

And possibly for Arya, it will be Jon himself who will make her leave FM(Hearing his death). 

Over the course of 5 books, Arya has thought Jon at least 42 times; Jon has thought of Arya at least 48 times. Considering that they think about their other siblings 3-5 times, this is quite extreme.

Then somebody comes along and says, "No, it won't be love for between these two, you're presenting a very weak meta." 

What is powerful meta for these people? With the arguments they stole from other ship theories? Or are they arguments they fabricate by making up things that are not in the books? Or by interpreting a single prophetic phrase as they wish? Of course! On the other hand, a ship theory with countless strong arguments 5 books and what I wrote above has a weak basic!

You may not want this ship theory, you may find it disgusting ... It has nothing to do with the argument. The important thing here is whether GRRM left a clue about it ... And he did! At least, "I still have doubts, but it looks like something serious is on the table, I can't ignore it." you should be able to say.

Thanks.

 

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