Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
CamiloRP

(f)dany

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

I disagree. Part of the problem is that a lot of people want more mysteries, more hidden identities, more dead characters who aren’t really dead, and so on. And a lot of people want to “discover the hidden truth” and be that one special snowflake who figured it all out. There are mysteries in the story, sure, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. 

Yes, but if a cigar is just a cigar and has been described as a cigar since the beginning there'd be no reveal in saying "it's a cigar" that's all I'm saying. I'm not saying that the house being in Braavos is lame, I'm saying that if it is we'll never get a reveal, because it would be a very stupid reveal. And if we never get a reveal, why not hint that it is in Dany's memories? Unless you want to leave it open, and if you wan't to leave it open there has to be textual support for it not being in Braavos.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I disagree. Part of the problem is that a lot of people want more mysteries, more hidden identities, more dead characters who aren’t really dead, and so on. And a lot of people want to “discover the hidden truth” and be that one special snowflake who figured it all out. There are mysteries in the story, sure, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. 

Nail right on the head there! :D 

2 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Lemongate is alive and well it seems.

Only GRRM can kill it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Sigella said:

Nah thats too thin. I dont mind you not buying into it but I dont see who died and made you the lord of tinfoil. 

I'm not the lord of tinfoil. Tinfoil all you want. But if you make claims that the text says X, and it doesn't, I'll point that out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Sigella said:

Only GRRM can kill it.

That'd require him to even acknowledge it. Chances are if we get Winds and Dream it won't address a lot of the theories people are advocating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, GoldenGail3 said:

What’s with these horrible theories people have?

As @kissdbyfirementioned, a lot of people want to be "the one" who discover something game changing. Couple that with nearly a decade since the last published book.... 

Edited by Lord Lannister

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

The author presents us with  something that happened in Braavos, then, he describes Braavos, nothing of what we know to be true abut Braavos is present in the events that suposedly happened in Braavos, that's suspicious at the very least.

Its not 'nothing of what we know to be true about Braavos is in the events supposedly in Braavos'.  Thats a logical fallacy very close to absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
The correct question here is; "is there anything in her memories that contradicts what we know of Braavos?"
And the answer is no, there is not. Not one single thing.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Again with my example of Bear Island and Lemonwood, yes it could be explained in some way, there's always a way to make anything you want fit anywhere, but if he wanted us to be 100% sure it was, he would have put any evidence of it other than Viserys telling Dany it was Braavos.

GRRM doesn;t do 100% sure. He asks his readers to be smarter than that.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

If I tell you "I spend my childhood in Yakutsk, Russia, I have so many happy memories in there, swimming, drinking lemonade and being warm" it's not impossible that I'm telling the truth, but it is weird that my memories don't seem to match the place.

No, it isn't weird. Its especially not weird if you add that you were a wealthy fugitive in hiding, had an indoor pool, and left when you were still young, maybe 4-6.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

You don't know her childhood was spent indoors, you are assuming that based on one memory or two.

No, I'm pointing out that her memories are all indoors. I'm not assuming anything, merely pointing out the facts.
You are assuming there were outdoors times as well (a small assumption), and then further assuming that her best, safest, memories, must be outdoors rather than indoors (a huge and irrational assumption).

I mean, the very fact that her most important memories are all indoors and none outdoors is itself a clue that she was in a cold place, like Braavos.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Yes, we were also told that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn, that the valyrian steel dagger was Tyrion's, that Jon Connington was dead, that Barristan was called Arstan Whitebeard, that Davos was killed in Whiteharbor. And the worst one, Viserys told Dany that the "usurper's knives" where after them. Yet we know this to be false. Jon Arryn persuaded Robert not to kill them, and the poisoner he sent to her is clarely the first assassin he sends.

Yup. Characters lie, or are deceived and wrong.
I'm not insisting you automatically believe its Braavos. I'm pointing out that the sources you think indicate its not, don't actually indicate that. Most of them are in fact flat wrong. Plus, there is independent corroborating evidence.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Not inconsistent, again, I'm not saying that it can't be Braavos, I'm saying that there are some things pointing at it maybe not being, as the text states, if you think there are lemon trees north of the Riverlands, you are a fool, and if you think there are lemon trees in Braavos, you are a fool. (note, I'm not trying to insult you, nor am I saying you are a fool, I'm just pointing out how weird it is that the text says that the idea of lemon trees in Braavos is foolish)

Its not weird. Characters think and say the correct relevant things for their context. Its correct, in context of a random acquirer of lemons, that to go someplace as far north of Braavos in order to get lemons is foolish. 
That does not mean that its impossible to acquire lemons in Braavos, just that they are rarer and more expensive there.
It does not mean that lemon trees cannot grow in Braavos, just that its not their natural climate and so only a few will be found, almost certainly amongst the wealthy.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Say you, it might have been a memory.

Seriously?

Its explicitly described as a vision.

Quote

"Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other, until it seemed as if the very air had come alive."

The 'event' immediately before it is a clearly allegorical vision of something Dany has never seen ( blue flower in a wall of ice). The 'event' immediately after it is clearly an allegorical vision as it is of an event Dany witnessed but radically changed in a phantastical way that never happened (dragon bursting out of MMD's brow).

But this one thing in a whole list of explicit visions that don't match any 'memories' Dany has, "might have been a memory".

Its quite difficult not to be rude about such a statement.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

What about the Dornish support? that means a heck of a lot more than the support of a single exiled master at arms.

Dany and Viserys have to survive to adulthood. The Dornish aren't there in Braavos when Willem dies, and their support is secret and future (when Viserys is old enough and has enough other support to marry).
Darry fulfilled a similar role for V&D and JonCon does for fAegon. A known , respected link to the past that can guide them and assist them. Without that mentor role, hw is the bratty little child Visrys and his mousy little girl sister going to survive, let alone propser a secret rebellion.  

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Not once, the riverlands are south of Braavos, and yet the idea of lemon trees being there is "foolish",

Yes. Sheesh, its really really simple, give it a break. 
You don't go to Braavos to get lemons, just like you don't go to London to buy coconuts. Yes, you can get coconuts in London, or lemons in Braavos, but its foolish to do so because they are much rarer and much more expensive to do so. 

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Septon Maribald says he can only get oranges in Dorne, same as littlefinger, and The Vale is also south from Braavos.

Sure. In their understanding and context. They are both right - thats where Westerosi oranges come from, generally, and wrong. We know there are also oranges etc in the southern free cities in Essos.

Their conversation supports, rather than rules out, lemons being an exotic in Braavos, the sort of thing only found in rich men's houses and notable.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Finally, in the Mercy chapter, the guy point blankedly says that there are no lemon trees in Braavos, and claims that Raff is a fool that can't reed a map because he thought he would fin lemons there.

Yes. There are no (native) lemon trees in Braavos. And its foolish to go to Braavos looking for them. Because there are much much better places to look for them where they are natural and plentiful, rather than rare and exotic and notable. 

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Yes. Rich people can afford things that non-rich people can't. But why bring up the lemon tree thing if this was the point? To show that Dany stayed with rich people? we already know that. Whats the point of the lemon tree?

Verisimilitude is a point all its own. Dany has an early childhood memory that is a key definer of her personality. Thats what the house with the red door is. It is an early memory, quite limited, as mist people's early memories are, and it is kept alive in her head because it is key to a significant portion of her character. It represents home, security and safety to her, things she's never really had since that time and the lack of which has had and continues to have a profound influence on her life and choices.
If you want the relevant terminology, the house with the red door is an Autobiographical Memory, using Event Specific Knowledge to create an Anchoring Event. Elements of Episodic Memory are present, leading to Autonoetic Consciousness, which consist of a sense of self in the past and some imagery and sensory-perceptual details.
The red door works, because it stands out. The carved wooden animals work, because they stand out. The lemon tree works because it stands out. this is important because ESK tends to fade quickly with only details from certain events (for Dany this is an anchoring event) being retained.

 

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

The idea that it shows dornish support is reaching a lot. How does having a lemon tree mean dornish support?

It doesn't mean Dornish support.. But it could be a clue towards Dornish support, given the amount of times Dorne is mentioned with respect to Lemons - in other storylines, rather than Dany's.

Apparently you're allowed to argue this strongly, but then not recognise it all of a sudden?

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

You said that there probably was a lemon tree in Winterfell's glass gardens, does that mean a secret pact to marry Sansa to Drey? I have a Maple tree in my back yard, does that mean I'm friends with Justin Trudeau? 

I said there might be a lemon tree in winterfell's gardens. But its not explicitly mentioned, so no it couldn;t be a 'clue' to anything.

I'd like to ask if you understand the diffeence between a 'clue' and a 'meaning'. But I'm going to assume you understand that very well. In which case, why make a bad argument?

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

When asked about this, GRRM said

What does it point to then? The marriage pact? that seems ridiculous.

Why? Dany thought that she and Viserys were completely abandoned by Westeros. Turns out, thats not the case. She chose not to use it (more fool her), but that turned into a serious marriage offer from her last remaining family.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

That Dany lived with rich people? we already knew that.

Given that thats in her very first chapter, no we didn't.

Quote

That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, 

In order to show they had wealth and/or support, the very first piece of information is that they lived in a big house. The second, that Dany had her own room with a lemon tree outside the window. The third, that there were servants.

The first clue that it wasn't just a run down old 'big house', is the lemon tree. That shows wealth, and current upkeep. The second is the servants. The lemon tree is perhaps the most relevant of those though. It indicates they had support from a wealthy long term source of power in Braavos. mre so than just the house size or presence of servants does.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Wasn't the pact a significant prospect?

Alone? Not once Darry died. Its for years in the future and is meaningless if they never survive to make that future. It is also 'secret' indicating that Dorne isn't ready to publicly support them now. 

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Isn't Dorne backing them more important than an exiled master at arms?

In the long term, yes. In the here and now, only if Dorne is actually backing them here and now, which it isn't. Its a secret pact.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

If Dorne was backing them, why didn't Doran help them?

1. He's got to know to help? He's not actually there and it takes time for news of Willem's death to get to him and for him to get help back - if he will.

2. He's almost certainly not in a position to do so openly. And its a lot more risky for him to do so secretly in a more direct and current fashion, than to have a single secret document in his possession with a single witness who has almost as much to lose as he has.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Counter each other? You mean like saying Dany and Viserys had no prospects and that they had the support of Dorne?

If I'm being silly tell me why.

Sorry, it was too much and I was hoping to avoid the whole mess. It looked like an attempt to waste my time answering pointless scatter-fire questions, and thus discourage further conversation. If you're serious, I'll try to answer. You won;t necessarily like the answers.
Silly, because most of the questions are about politics, not reason. Your actual questions are related to anything 'unreasonable', just political answers that maybe aren't what you would have chosen.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

How did Darry make a pact that he has no legal power to make?

How do you know he has no legal power? Who is their guardian if not he? What did Rhaella give him or tell him before she died? You don;t know, neither do I. Which makes this question silly. It has no foundation. The fact is, the pact exists. Darry made it. Questioning that without a sound basis, is pointless.  

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Why would he make a pact that offers nothing to Viserys, if he gets no army, then Dorne does nothing, if he gets an army he has to marry into one of the least powerful kingdoms, instead of marrying a more loyal and powerful house like the Tyrells? What does Viserys win with this pact?

Viserys wins support within westeros. Solid support, if he gets to a certain stage. Thats powerful. that transforms any attempt for the throne from a purely Essosi invasion to an internal rebellion with extrenal support. That makes a huge difference, as we will see with fAegon's invasion. If he doesn;t get support from inside Westeros, he's doomed. 
This pact gives Viserys a head start should he get far enough to claim it.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Why didn't Doran help Viserys at all if this was his carefully planned fourteen years in the making, revenge achieving plot? he has contacts in Norvos and Volantis, and his brother founded an essossi sellsword company, why didn't he used them?

Already answered above with 1.2. Direct support before Viserys is ready to move on the throne is too dangerous for Dorne. 

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Why didn't the Sealord help Viserys?

Why should he? 
Helping back then entailed a large risk for no return. Being passive entailed a negligible risk for potential future return.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

 how can we prove the document is legit? There are seals and signatures, yes, but Dany doesn't even know the Martell sigil.

Barristan does. 
What would be the point of Quentyn producing such a document if it were fake? 

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Doran is said to be a careful deliberate man,  a man who's been planning revenge for years. Yet his only plan

Only plan? I'm sure Doran has many silent plans.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

is to have a crazy, exiled eightyearold manage to get support and do anything for himself?

Please, try to think through your arguments a little before presenting them. No. Willem Darry and his connections would do the organising. Viserys is little more than a figurehead at that stage.
Which is one of the reasons it all fell apart when Willem died. Viserys isn't capable of doing all that, and as a conequence, isn;t expected to even survive.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

What would have he done if the Targs failed? would he toss his hands up in the air, say "oh well" and do nothing? Would he sit around for another fourteen years trying to come up with an equally stupid plan?

I don't know. Do you think he has no other plans and irons in the fire? 
Do you think he had no plans for Quentyn before Dany reappeared out of nowhere?

Do you think he should have been moving against Robert and the rest of Westeros before Dany and fAegon appeared?

This is really a silly question. The Targs did fail, more or less, but not completely. So he sat on that plan and worked on others, or pretty much abandoned it even (not entirely, as Arianne and Quentyn remained unmarried) . Then when they un-failed, when Dany re-appeared, with dragons, no less, he reactivated that plan, with an adaptation to current circumstances.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Yes, I read an essay about a different thing, I never said anything about the lemon tree in the original post.

Sure, ok. I misunderstood you.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

barefeet - misunderstanding - Say you

Shows, not says. Its explicit, and backed up by context around it as well.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

warm temperature/air - misunderstanding - Nope, all I'm saying is how weird it is that she describes it in a way that doesn't give any clue that its Braavos

 

On 8/13/2020 at 8:37 AM, CamiloRP said:

Why is the temperature warm even though Braavos is so far up north?

22 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

But Dany describes a big house with a garden and a tree, she ran barefoot, which implies a warm climate, but Braavos is cold,

23 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Yes I was talking about this. Aemon's sickness is cold in Braavos, yes sickness can be different, but still, too keep the room warm in Braavos you need a lot of money, given how expensive wood is.

This was your argument. You misunderstood. The temperature in Dany's memories is not warm.
Shift the goalposts if you wish, but don't lie that you misunderstood what the text actually says.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

no houses - misunderstanding - Nope, again, the house as described is particularly un-braavosi, that doesn't mean it couldn't possibly be in Braavos, but again, it's weird.

 

22 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

We know Braavos as a humid cold place filled with fog, there are few houses, 

This was your argument. 
Shift the goalposts if you wish, but don't lie that you misunderstood what the text actually says.

As to the shifted goalposts, that too is false.
There is nothing in Dany's memories that is 'un-Braavosi'. We don't have any descriptions of the inside of typical wealthy Braavosi houses, so we can't possibly claim her memories are 'un-Braavosi. 

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

wood thing - misunderstanding - Nope, again, it could be in Braavos, but it makes it a bit weird.

Not even gonna bother with the quotes for that one. You ranted repeatedly about how wood was so super expensive that even a rich house wouldn't have wooden beams or carved wood, totally ignoring the (few, but some) wooden housing near the docks, hundreds of ships built from wood, and thousands of trees overlooking Braavos.

There is no weirdness at all in a rich house having wood in it in Braavos, any more than its weird that my house has stuff made in China, Europe, and probably many other places in it even though I live in a different continent (-al area) and am not 'rich'. 

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

no smell of the sea - indoor vs outdoor mistake - Didn't she spend any time outside? how can someone think of Braavos and not think of the sea?
no fog - indoor vs outdoor mistake - same as above

All of her very limited memories at a young age are indoors. Thats it. Its not weird in the slightest. It is in fact exactly what we would expect from Dany's childhood in Braavos. See the memory stuff above.

Frankly I think its weird that you think its reasonable to argue that her memories show she wasn't in Braavos when not only do they show nothing of any other location, but they locations you argue for (places where lemons are not exotic) should have more 'outdoor' memories than you would expect in a cold place like Braavos. 
Your own argument undermines itself. Its puzzling to me how you don;t recognise that.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Yes there is, GRRM thinks its important to state over and over where citrus grow. For what end? 

Probably a bunch of ends.
One might be to indicate that Dany's memories show something out of place - exotic. Why? 
You claim that that means its the place isn't where we are told it is. I'm not saying thats definitively wrong. I'm saying there is zero textual evidence to support that idea and independent supporting evidence for it being right. Therefore its not logical to seriously consider it unless we have no better alternative
There is textual evidence to support another idea. Which we've discussed already.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

I never said she was in Dorne.

Substitute any other hot place. Thats clearly what you argued.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

The point is, excluding that we were told it was Braavos, nothing in the dreams [memories] points to it being there.

No, thats not a point. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Its not even a reasonable fake-point, as independent evidence not from her memories points to it being there.

The real pint is that nothing in her memories points away from Braavos. Everything is perfectly consistent with what we are told.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Running barefoot? points no a warmer climate, not Braavos.

See. Still arguing the same broken point, even when its been proven false. And even when you elsewhere claim that this wasn't your argument.

There is no barefoot outdoor running in her memories.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

The smells? Point to a place with no particular smell of it's own, not a port city.

The smells don't point to any place. Any rich house anywhere can have perfumes.

If anything the presence of perfumes indicates a natural smell thats is not entirely pleasant.
Like, say Braavos, as opposed to the southern Free Cities with their Orange, Lemon, Lime and Pomegranate trees.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

You are taking your conclusion first (the house is in Braavos) and then having the rest of the text fit it. Making excuses for the things that don't make sense. But if you take the descriptions we get first and use them to try to figure out where the house is, you won't get a definitive answer, but you'd probably never think of Braavos.

Problem is, the descriptions don;t give us any clues. All your 'clues' are false readings of the text. 
I'm taking the start point and seeing independent confirmation and no flaws in the presentation. 

Mostly, all I'm doing here is trying to point out that your supposed 'clues' don;t actually say what you claimed they did. If they did, I'd be a lot more interested.

I think I've done that pretty thoroughly, so unless you up your game or bring something new, I doubt I'll reply again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/10/2020 at 4:14 PM, CamiloRP said:

I just finished rereading ASOIAF again and I found myself thinking about an essay I read a few years back, titled "(f)dany" (I think) that compiles a lot of evidence about how Dany is Rhaegar's daughter instead of his sister, I wanted to read that essay again but couldn't find it. Anyone knows where it is?

thanks a lot!

I believe the essay is this: https://thelasthearth.freeforums.net/thread/572/dany

Fun fact: (f)Dany has much more evidence than r+l=j 

Edited by Khal Rhaego Targaryen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Wolfking007 said:

i don't really buy R+L=D, but I think that lemon tree is definitly not in Braavos. To many times has been stated that lemon trees grows only in the south, for it to be meaningless.

The problem with R+L=D for me is that it doesn't explain why Ned hides Jon' identity.  Since if Jon isn't Rhaegar's child then Jon wouldn't be in danger from Robert. So Ned would have no reason to give him a false ID and claim he is the father.

The only way to reconcile the two (making R+L=D true yet ALSO have Jon be in danger from Robert and needing a false ID would be it the two where twins. However that can't be said out loud or one gets hanged by the community.

I am not taking a side here. Just pointing the problem out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Amris said:

The problem with R+L=D for me is that it doesn't explain why Ned hides Jon' identity.  Since if Jon isn't Rhaegar's child then Jon wouldn't be in danger from Robert. So Ned would have no reason to give him a false ID and claim he is the father.

The only way to reconcile the two (making R+L=D true yet ALSO have Jon be in danger from Robert and needing a false ID would be it the two where twins. However that can't be said out loud or one gets hanged by the community.

I am not taking a side here. Just pointing the problem out.

I consider R+L=J to be true, and dany to be Aerys's daughter, just can't figure out significance of Braavos story. To be more precise, why tell us that she was in Braavos if she was somewhere else. It has to have some meaning for dany's story

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Wolfking007 said:

I consider R+L=J to be true, and dany to be Aerys's daughter, just can't figure out significance of Braavos story. To be more precise, why tell us that she was in Braavos if she was somewhere else. It has to have some meaning for dany's story

yeah, it is strange

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Rhaegar+Lyanna= Danny.. is being proposed as a "Theory"....

Then I must insist that Bonifer+Rhaella=Rhaegar is also a plausible "Theory"...

Evidence: Bonifer and Rhaegar are described of having a sad essence/look.... And that, Aerys and Rhaegar are at least said to be nothing alike......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dany can't be Rhaegar's and Lyanna's child. Because:

1. GRRM said that Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany. Thus, they are NOT twins;

2. The Rebellion lasted approximately one year, either a bit more than 12 months, or a bit less than 12 months. But NOT as long as 18 months. If Dany and Jon are not twins, and based on what GRRM said, they can't be twins, then, if they are brother and sister, then they were supposed to be born from two separate pregnancies. But there are not enough time in span of Rebellion for two pregnancies. Each pregnancy would have lasted 9 months, and two would have lasted 18, which is more than the duration of Rebellion. Thus, Dany and Jon are NOT siblings.

Furthermore, by the time when Rhaella's Dany was born, Lyanna was already many months dead. If Dany is Lyanna's child, then where was she between Lyanna's death and Rhaella's death? If Dany is Ned's niece, then why did he gave her to Willem Darry and Viserys, but kept Jon? If Dany is Lyanna's child, and she is several months older than Rhaella's Daenerys, who was born dead, then how come Viserys didn't noticed that the baby, that was presented to him as his newborn sister, is not a newborn, but a several months old baby? If Viserys was aware that Dany is not Rhaella's child, can't be Rhaella's child, because she is too old to be Rhaella's child, then why he never accused Dany in not being who she thought she was? Why didn't he never said to her that she is not his sister?

It doesn't make any sense for Dany to be Rhaegar's and Lyanna's child instead of Aerys' and Rhaella's.

Dany was compared to Rhaegar, because people, that knew about the prophecy, based on omens mentioned in that prophecy, thought that Rhaegar was the Promised Prince. But it's Dany who is Azor Ahai reborn and the Promised Princess. Or rather she is one of three saviours, three heads of the dragon - Dany/Drogon, Rhaego/Rhaegal, Jon/Viserion. 

And Quaithe was telling Dany to remember who she is, in a sense that she is a dragon, and dragons don't plant trees, they conquer with fire and blood. So Quaithe's words meant that Dany should stop acting like a mother of slaves, and became the mother of dragons, a conqueror not a tree-planter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Dany can't be Rhaegar's and Lyanna's child. Because:

1. GRRM said that Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany. Thus, they are NOT twins;

2. The Rebellion lasted approximately one year, either a bit more than 12 months, or a bit less than 12 months. But NOT as long as 18 months. If Dany and Jon are not twins, and based on what GRRM said, they can't be twins, then, if they are brother and sister, then they were supposed to be born from two separate pregnancies. But there are not enough time in span of Rebellion for two pregnancies. Each pregnancy would have lasted 9 months, and two would have lasted 18, which is more than the duration of Rebellion. Thus, Dany and Jon are NOT siblings.

Furthermore, by the time when Rhaella's Dany was born, Lyanna was already many months dead. If Dany is Lyanna's child, then where was she between Lyanna's death and Rhaella's death? If Dany is Ned's niece, then why did he gave her to Willem Darry and Viserys, but kept Jon? If Dany is Lyanna's child, and she is several months older than Rhaella's Daenerys, who was born dead, then how come Viserys didn't noticed that the baby, that was presented to him as his newborn sister, is not a newborn, but a several months old baby? If Viserys was aware that Dany is not Rhaella's child, can't be Rhaella's child, because she is too old to be Rhaella's child, then why he never accused Dany in not being who she thought she was? Why didn't he never said to her that she is not his sister?

It doesn't make any sense for Dany to be Rhaegar's and Lyanna's child instead of Aerys' and Rhaella's.

Dany was compared to Rhaegar, because people, that knew about the prophecy, based on omens mentioned in that prophecy, thought that Rhaegar was the Promised Prince. But it's Dany who is Azor Ahai reborn and the Promised Princess. Or rather she is one of three saviours, three heads of the dragon - Dany/Drogon, Rhaego/Rhaegal, Jon/Viserion. 

And Quaithe was telling Dany to remember who she is, in a sense that she is a dragon, and dragons don't plant trees, they conquer with fire and blood. So Quaithe's words meant that Dany should stop acting like a mother of slaves, and became the mother of dragons, a conqueror not a tree-planter.

1.: Well GRRM could theoretically be stretching the truth in this imfamous SSM. For instance his answer could be about Jon's and Dany's 'official party line' birthdates (but keeping their real ones secret in order to not give his game away). I agree though that that's not likely.

2. Yes. Lyanna can't have been pregnant twice in the time.

If Lyanna didn't have twins, (a theory that I like but agree is unlikely) then her only child must have been Jon. Otherwise Ned would not have had to keep Jon secret.

Theoretically Dany could have another mother though - for instance Ashara. I'd find that interesting but I can't for the live of me not come up with a theoretical chain of events that would make that likely. So yeah - the default solution of Aerys and Rhaella is still the most logical. If only that didn't have very unlikely parts too. That's why I keep coming back to thinking about it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Amris said:

the default solution of Aerys and Rhaella is still the most logical. If only that didn't have very unlikely parts too. That's why I keep coming back to thinking about it.

We have it known that the mad-cunt brutalised Rhaella..... through Jaime(that is likely Danny's conception).......

And can you elaborate on the unlikely parts of it? I really didn't catch on why it's "very unlikely" that Danny's parents are not who we are told they are....:huh:

Edited by Orm
Sentence construction

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Khal Rhaego Targaryen said:

I believe the essay is this: https://thelasthearth.freeforums.net/thread/572/dany

Fun fact: (f)Dany has much more evidence than r+l=j 

YES IT IS. 

Thanks a lot mr stallion

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Orm said:

We have it known that the mad-cunt brutalised Rhaella..... through Jaime(that is likely Danny's conception).......

And can you elaborate on the unlikely parts of it? I really didn't catch on why it's "very unlikely" that Danny's parents are not who we are told they are....:huh:

Rhaegar was born 259 during the Summerhall event. That birth might have had somethiung special to it there. But be that as it may: Between 263 and 274 Rhaella had 8 miscarriages or children that died early. Only Viserys born 276 survived and then no more children til Dany in 282. Although we know from Jamie that the Mad King raped her repeatedly. But didn't get her pregnant.

The obvious fact is that Rhaella and Aerys had problems bringing healthy children into the world. And usually didn't. I agree that it wasn't impossible for them, very true, they managed twice before Dany after all - but it most of the time didn't work. This is the one unlikelihood for me.

The second unlikelihood is that Dany was conceived - literally - at the very last possible moment. Only days before the sack of KL and Aerys death. Again - that's not impossible, I agree. But the luck of house Targaryen in this is astonishing. Think of it: after 8 miscarriages/stillborns/sickly children that the couple had over 19 years when both were younger and presumably more fertile and after seveal more childless years Rhaella actually has her fertile days of the month exactly in the days before the sack of KL AND manages to conceive a healthy child in this very moment house when Targaryen needs it most. Literally at the last possible chance.

It is not that I can't believe this. As I already said I think this default solution is still the most likely. Yeah but it does have those unlikely parts. That's why I keep thinking about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That essay uses as evidence the stuff that’s already been discussed here, so at this point it’s pretty much like beating a very dead horse. 
Here’s something interesting about the location of the house w/ the red door. Now, I don’t think Martin would swap Tyrosh for Braavos only to have it not be Braavos. Not that this will convince anyone, but I thought I’d just throw it out there. 

 

Edited by kissdbyfire

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...