Rondo Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 There is no such thing as "honorable stupidity." However, there is such a thing as "honorless oathbreaker." A person who is honorable to a fault is almost always more moral than the one who breaks vows easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 Honour and duty are not synonyms. They may go together at times, but definitely not always. And there’s more, sometimes breaking an oath is exactly the honourable thing to do, even if it goes against one’s duties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 1 hour ago, frenin said: What?? The Succession laws predate Targaryen invasion, they predate the Andal Invasion even. I don't really see where's the correlation but... Whatever, the laws are stupid and Ned had no problem recognizing that when he put Robert on Aerys' chair 1 hour ago, frenin said: Btw, Janos Slynt was indeed bought by Littlefinger and the Lannisters, he was not made Lord of Harrenhall because Cersei liked how he smelt. He was made lord of Harrenhall cuz he gave Joffrey his throne. What does that mean bought? Like Aspatori to Drogon? People cant just be permanently bought like that, we're not ps5's. Life moves on. Like Petyr says, Quote He sold you for gold, and when he'd drunk it up he would have sold you again. A bag of dragons buys a man's silence for a while, but a well-placed quarrel buys it forever." He smiled sadly. 1 hour ago, frenin said: So yes, Ned was perfectly right to understand that in a moment where who has the legit power is in doubt... Buy swords. Then the cheap bastard shoulda paid him with his own damn money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makk Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 9 hours ago, Lord Lannister said: Tywin Lannister didn't live a saintly life. There's plenty there alone to look down on and Ned is in the habit of looking down on people's flaws he doesn't like and turning a blind eye to those he does. I feel this is very unfair. Do you have some examples? He loved Robert as a brother but would not tolerate him sending assassins after Daenerys. He was prepared to resign his position and call the king out publicly. Quote Ned had heard enough. "You send hired knives to kill a fourteen-year-old girl and still quibble about honor?" He pushed back his chair and stood. "Do it yourself, Robert. The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. Look her in the eyes before you kill her. See her tears, hear her last words. You owe her that much at least." "Gods," the king swore, the word exploding out of him as if he could barely contain his fury. "You mean it, damn you." He reached for the flagon of wine at his elbow, found it empty, and flung it away to shatter against the wall. "I am out of wine and out of patience. Enough of this. Just have it done." "I will not be part of murder, Robert. Do as you will, but do not ask me to fix my seal to it." For a moment Robert did not seem to understand what Ned was saying. Defiance was not a dish he tasted often. Slowly his face changed as comprehension came. His eyes narrowed and a flush crept up his neck past the velvet collar. He pointed an angry finger at Ned. "You are the King's Hand, Lord Stark. You will do as I command you, or I'll find me a Hand who will." "I wish him every success." Ned unfastened the heavy clasp that clutched at the folds of his cloak, the ornate silver hand that was his badge of office. He laid it on the table in front of the king, saddened by the memory of the man who had pinned it on him, the friend he had loved. "I thought you a better man than this, Robert. I thought we had made a nobler king." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: Whatever, the laws are stupid and Ned had no problem recognizing that when he put Robert on Aerys' chair Yes, he changed the Targaryens with the Baratheons, at any part of the deal he decided to stop following any inheritance law whatsoever or more importantly... Change the Baratheons with the late Lannisters. Kinda like arguing that because the American Revolution started because taxes, there should be no taxes whatsoever in the new country... 10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: He was made lord of Harrenhall cuz he gave Joffrey his throne. And he gave Joffrey his throne because he was bought into that. 12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: What does that mean bought? Like Aspatori to Drogon? People cant just be permanently bought like that, we're not ps5's. Life moves on. Like Petyr says, It means that Janos Slynt pledged his swords for a price during a determined time. The unstable time between Robert's death and Joffrey's ascension where there is no clear authority. At no point did i say that he was bought forever. 14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: Then the cheap bastard shoulda paid him with his own damn money He did not know what Janos's price was, which is why he needed to rely on LF, since the man knew him and all that. But hindsight is everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 21 minutes ago, frenin said: Yes, he changed the Targaryens with the Baratheons, at any part of the deal he decided to stop following any inheritance law whatsoever or more importantly... Change the Baratheons with the late Lannisters. Kinda like arguing that because the American Revolution started because taxes, there should be no taxes whatsoever in the new country... (They tried that lol. Articles of confederation) No its not, its like arguing George III was a tyrant so America is now done with them. 25 minutes ago, frenin said: And he gave Joffrey his throne because he was bought into that. It means that Janos Slynt pledged his swords for a price during a determined time. The unstable time between Robert's death and Joffrey's ascension where there is no clear authority. Did he? We dont know when Jaons was given Harrenhall. Its certainly possible that Cersei gave him the seat after the fact. 29 minutes ago, frenin said: At no point did i say that he was bought forever. My fault 29 minutes ago, frenin said: He did not know what Janos's price was, which is why he needed to rely on LF, since the man knew him and all that. But hindsight is everything. Yea, but its supposedly in Neds agenda to dine with his men so he learns all about them. So, good for the kids that they remember their father as a better man then he was. I mean really, when you need shit done right you do it yourself. Not the fella who said "mistrusting me was the only smart thing you did" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 41 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: (They tried that lol. Articles of confederation) And abandoned it soon enough. 41 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: No its not, its like arguing George III was a tyrant so America is now done with them. Yes, it is. With tyrants you mean?? Well, that is a long conversation for another day, if you're meaning with kings... USA tried to make a crown for Prince Henry of Prussia but the man declined... There is no dichotomy in Ned's mind, for Ned switching to the Baratheons does not mean that succesion laws do not matter anymore, this rationale you, and other posters, try to force on him is simply absurd. Both because it's clearly that Ned doesn't share it nor feels conflicted and because it simply does not need to alter your world view. 41 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: Did he? We dont know when Jaons was given Harrenhall. Its certainly possible that Cersei gave him the seat after the fact. We do know it. Quote "It would seem he has a point," said Tyrion. "So this Lord Slynt, he was part of it, was he? Tell me, whose fine notion was it to grant him Harrenhal and name him to the council?" "Littlefinger made the arrangements. We needed Slynt's gold cloaks. Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he'd written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans . . ." Janos was already bought when he arrested Ned, which is kinda obvious, but whatever. 41 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: Yea, but its supposedly in Neds agenda to dine with his men so he learns all about them. So, good for the kids that they remember their father as a better man then he was. Since when is Janos Slynt "his man"?? I'm awarethat you dislike Ned, but you're shitting on him in the most absurd parts. 41 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: I mean really, when you need shit done right you do it yourself. Not the fella who said "mistrusting me was the only smart thing you did" The same fella who's wife told him that he could def trust since they were as siblings?? Ned also was injured and his traels could've been noticed right away and been intercepted by Cersei, LF was the perfect go between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 I would trust Ned any day over Barristan. Ned has it in him to question unjust authority and plot a coup against people based on facts he discovers. He challenged Robert and told him when he was being an ass (Robert still wasn't as bad as Aerys). Barristan served (and is serving) tyrants. He is a follower and would commit atrocities if his boss told him to - even knowing they are wrong. Ned, however, would throw the badge of office in the king's face. Btw, when did Ned's views on Joffrey change?Did he see who he really was before or after he realized he was illegitimate? Maybe its mentioned but I cant remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 Ned is sufficiently morally aware that he makes a stand, even when it costs him. He's hiding Jon from Robert's wrath, and resigns, rather than agree to send an assassin after Daenerys. Ned is morally brave, but the morally correct course of action is fairly clear for him. Barristan is in a slightly different position. Usually, he has to choose between bad courses. It is unclear what the morally correct course of action is. He rescued a tyrant from the Darklyns, who proceeded to massacre that family brutally, before going on to practice further enormities. But, had he not done so, Tywin would have stormed the city and inflicted atrocities on the inhabitants. In Meereen, he can break the peace, and run the attendant risks of war; or he can seek to keep the peace and run the attendant risks that the Slavers will capture the city and re-enslave the population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said: Btw, when did Ned's views on Joffrey change?Did he see who he really was before or after he realized he was illegitimate? Maybe its mentioned but I cant remember. I don't think that Ned's views on Joffrey changed that much, he never liked the kid, nor pretended to like him but he defended it from Robert because he believed him his best friend's son. He never really got to think him a monster. At the end of the day, he risked and lost everything to save him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal Rhaego Targaryen Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 Ned was not an honorable fool. He was just a fool stupid and proud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 2 hours ago, frenin said: I don't think that Ned's views on Joffrey changed that much, he never liked the kid, nor pretended to like him but he defended it from Robert because he believed him his best friend's son. He never really got to think him a monster. At the end of the day, he risked and lost everything to save him. Thanks. Yeah, he risks his life to save people who arent worth saving. Barristan too. Both are susceptible to manipulation as well (Littlefinger, Skahaz). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said: Thanks. Yeah, he risks his life to save people who arent worth saving. Barristan too. Both are susceptible to manipulation as well (Littlefinger, Skahaz). There is a big difference between them, Barristan does it because it's his duty, Ned does it because he's morally compelled to do so. Except when it comes to peasants it seems, fuck Mycah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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