B+A=J almost makes sense

[CamiloRP]

9 hours ago, corbon said:

Its not certain Ned actually did verbally call Jon 'his', though he certainly treated Jon as his. And let others assume Jon was his.
The only time we hear him doing so is a generic 'my sons' after Jon has been raised as his son for 12+ years - by then Jon really is his 'son' whether by blood or no, so its not a lie even if Jon is someone else's bastard.

 

but the point @Frey family reunion was making (I think) is that there's no reason for Ned not to tell Jon who his real parents are. And Cat is sure Jon is Ned's son, so it's almost a certainty that he told her he was his son when he first took him to Winterfell, even then, if he didn't, he never clarified he wasn't, and a lie of omission is still a lie.

[lehutin]

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

So ur point doesn’t make sense.

A mystery isn't a mystery after it's been solved. When AGOT was released in 1996, I doubt George expected many readers to conclude immediately that "hey, Lyanna Stark is obviously Jon Snow's mother, so who could his father be?"

[Frey family reunion]

10 hours ago, corbon said:

Its not certain Ned actually did verbally call Jon 'his', though he certainly treated Jon as his. And let others assume Jon was his.
The only time we hear him doing so is a generic 'my sons' after Jon has been raised as his son for 12+ years - by then Jon really is his 'son' whether by blood or no, so its not a lie even if Jon is someone else's bastard.

This is utter nonesense.  Ned acknowledged Jon as his son.  This is what makes Jon the Bastard of Winterfell.  He is an acknowledged bastard of Ned's.  Ned doesn't just show up with a kid and stays mum on why he dragged the kid to Winterfell.

[The Commentator]

20 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I would love nothing more than have Jon being Mance's son, instead of an inbred master race type. 

But how do you explain the secrecy, Ned not telling anyone, not even Cat? There are loads more issues as well, like the complete lack of textual support, hints, etc. 

It won't be a close secret for long if he had told Cat.  His sister sleeping with a Wildling!  Ned would not admit to that. 

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

It won't be a close secret for long if he had told Cat.  His sister sleeping with a Wildling!  Ned would not admit to that. 

Do you think Cat would have told anyone? Why? I mean, I would think learning that Jon is the son of Mance and Lyanna would make Cat very happy... Her worst fear, that Jon could threaten her kids' claims to inheritance, and her great hurt, that Ned cheated on her and brought his bastard home, poof, disappear immediately. 

[CamiloRP]

If Lyanna is the mother, Ned only needs one reason not to tell anyone (promise me Ned) but Lyanna would have no reason to ask of Ned that he tells no one if Mance is the father, what was her plan if she lived? Not tell anyone ever about the father? 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

In Celtic mythology, Neid had two wives.

I think Ned married Ashara at White Harbor when he was going to raise the banners at Winterfell.  Jon was conceived that night at the Wolf's Den (built by Jon Stark)--a wolf's den is where you would expect wolf pups. 

adhar /adhair / aidhre means "snow" in gaelic --(origin of Adara from the Ice Dragon, who was a winter child) and I think this is where Eddard comes from also.  ("athar" is referenced in the definition of adhar, and I think Jon's real name is Arthur, and I think Jon will be the new Sword of the Morning)

(Adara, Sharra, Ashara--George's female protaganists)

In George's story the Lonely Songs of Laren Dor, a mopey guy who wears grey and has a wolf's head cloak falls in love with a black haired woman named Sharra, but their romance is doomed and he pushes her out of a tower. (Sharra means "freedom" in gaelic, and he sets her free)  She had grey eyes.  Jon and Ned both have grey eyes. 

 

AGoT, Eddard II

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

 

"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …"

Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."

"Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn."

"I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child."

 

 

Everyone thinks this last line Ned is referring to Catelyn, what if Ned is continuing his previous sentence rather than responding to Robert, and he referring to Ashara?  He had taken Ashara to wife, and Ashara was carrying his child?  The way Ned dishonored himself and Cat was to get married when he was already married.  Neid had two wives.  The phrase "in the sight of gods and men" is used about things done under oath, such as a trial, or a wedding.  He had to marry Cat to get Riverrun in the alliance  (this parallels Robb with the Freys, Robb has two women, has to make a choice between a strategic political marriage or marrying for love--Robb makes the wrong choice), and then Ned had to get Ashara to fake her death and cover up the fact that they had been married.  This is what Ned is ashamed of. 

 

The names that get suggested for Jon's mother in this conversation are Merryl, Aleena, and Wylla.

"merryl" is an anagram of "lemyrr"--lemore/lemur/ le morte,

le morte means "the dead" in french,

lemur means "ghost" in latin 

"aleena"  aileanta means "bodiless" in gaelic, (ailleagan means "pretty maid", and ailleanta means "beautiful" and "shy" --shy maid)

asharira means "bodiless" in hindi,

gwylla means "ghost" in Welsh (gwyl means "shy" and gwylnos means "night watch")

Ashara had "haunting eyes" and ghost haunt

and llamwyr means "leaper" in Welsh and Ashara allegedly leapt from a tower.

 

(in gaelic nead means "nest" and Bran and Jon are both crows, neoid means "shy," naoid means "infant")

 

In Meera's Knight of the Laughing Tree story, Ashara was a "maid" and Ned was "shy"

Asha Greyjoy is a "shy maid" greyjoy comes from the Norse word gryja meaning "dawn" --Asha Dawn = Shy Maid

 

(In the Wheel of Time they use a word Mashiara, which means "a love lost that can never be regained")

 

When Davos is at the Wolf's Den ("once some lordling's bedchamber"), his gaoler call him "dead man" --the person who stays there is supposed to be dead.  He asks for reading material and they give him the Seven Pointed Star.  Lemore is a septa.  I think that while she was staying at the Wolf's Den, she was given the Seven Pointed Star to read, and she found religion, and the Sept in White Harbor is the Sept of the Snows. 

 

"Manderly pulled her close. 'Wylla, every time you open your mouth you make me want to send you to the silent sisters.' "

Hints at Jon's mother joining the Faith.  When you join the Faith, you lose your last name.

 

Did I mention the Wolf's Den was built by Jon Stark? 

 

Quote

Dead man was his name for Davos. When he came by in the morning, it was always, "Here, porridge for the dead man." At night it was, "Blow out the candle, dead man."

Once Garth brought his ladies by to introduce them to the dead man. "The Whore don't look like much," he said, fondling a rod of cold black iron, "but when I heat her up red-hot and let her touch your cock, you'll cry for mother. And this here's my Lady Lu. It's her who'll take your head and hands, when Lord Wyman sends down word." Davos had never seen a bigger axe than Lady Lu, nor one with a sharper edge. Garth spent his days honing her, the other keepers said. I will not plead for mercy, Davos resolved. He would go to his death a knight, asking only that they take his head before his hands. Even Garth would not be so cruel as to deny him that, he hoped.

The sounds coming through the door were faint and muffled. Davos rose and paced his cell. As cells went, it was large and queerly comfortable. He suspected it might once have been some lordling's bedchamber. It was thrice the size of his captain's cabin on Black Bessa, and even larger than the cabin Salladhor Saan enjoyed on his Valyrian. Though its only window had been bricked in years before, one wall still boasted a hearth big enough to hold a kettle, and there was an actual privy built into a corner nook. The floor was made of warped planks full of splinters, and his sleeping pallet smelled of mildew, but those discomforts were mild compared to what Davos had expected.

The food had come as a surprise as well. In place of gruel and stale bread and rotten meat, the usual dungeon fare, his keepers brought him fresh-caught fish, bread still warm from the oven, spiced mutton, turnips, carrots, even crabs. Garth was none too pleased by that. "The dead should not eat better than the living," he complained, more than once. Davos had furs to keep him warm by night, wood to feed his fire, clean clothing, a greasy tallow candle. When he asked for paper, quill, and ink, Therry brought them the next day. When he asked for a book, so he might keep at his reading, Therry turned up with The Seven-Pointed Star.

For all its comforts, though, his cell remained a cell. Its walls were solid stone, so thick that he could hear nothing of the outside world. The door was oak and iron, and his keepers kept it barred. Four sets of heavy iron fetters dangled from the ceiling, waiting for the day Lord Manderly decided to chain him up and give him over to the Whore. Today may be that day. The next time Garth opens my door, it may not be to bring me porridge.

A spacious comfortable prison, where a little lord stayed.  Davos is referred to as "the dead" = "la mort"  The gaoler is GArth and his tools are Lady Lu and Whore = Lu + Whore = lemore.  (Lu + Whore + g'Arth ~ Le Morte D'Arthur)  They are an Axe and and Iron, axe + iron = Ashara (akshara in hindi means "immortal")  Lady Lu and Whore are associated with penises and motherhood.  Lady Lu is an axe / ex.  One man with two ladies--a love triangle.

Lady Lu will take your hands (in marriage)

Davos' gaolers are Garth and Therry.  gwarth means "disgrace, shame" in welsh,  In hindi, thuri means "dishonor, shame, disgrace"  So Garth and Therry both mean "shame, disgrace"  Ned's shame and disgrace is associated with the Wolf's Den.

gwart means "guard" and "care, protection" in welsh

"Therry was the young one, the son of one of the washerwomen, a boy of ten-and-four. The old one was Garth, huge and bald and taciturn"  14 year old boy, son of wAsherwoman--which is a polite term for whore (lemore?) 

An anagram of "therry" is "yrther"  I think Arthur might be Jon's real name-- Garth + Therry = Arthuri  (a Dayne named Ned, a Stark named Arthur)

thoir in gaelic means "give, grant, deliver, bestow on, take, persuade, compel, take away" and thar means "over, across, beyond"  Ashara's baby was delivered at the Wolf's Den, and taken away, and Ashara later goes across the sea.

Ashara was protected/guarded at the Wolf's Den, and what Ned did to her was his disgrace.

"Therry wanted to go off to war when he was old enough, to fight in battles and become a knight. He liked to complain about his mother too. She was bedding two of the guardsmen, he confided. The men were on different watches and neither knew about the other, but one day one man or t'other would puzzle it out, and then there would be blood."

Knights and watches --nights watch.  Therry's mother / washermoman, was involved in a love triangle.  And when they found out the truth, there would be blood.  (when Robb's love triangle was discovered there was blood, if Ned's had been there would have been blood)  Garth was also in a love triangle with Lady Lu and Whore.

 

Davos stays at the Wolf's Den, he is a "dead man" his death is faked, and he is sent on a secret mission under a false identity.

The Wolf's Den has a secret passage to the god's wood, where Ned would have gotten married.  Wyman and Wylla keep talking about a debt to the Starks that can never be repaid, I think this was to give a reason why Wyman would have done what he did for Ned, and kept his secret all these years.

 

Borrell's story puts Ned there.  (borrell means "ignorant" and false lights are discussed in that chapter, so I don't think all the details of his story are correct, except that Ned passed through, there was a woman with him, and she is or becomes pregnant with Ned's child)

Barriston says Ashara "looked to Stark."

Ned Dayne: "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—"

Harwin: "Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now." He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. "I doubt there's any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged."

 

"If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered, the lady was long dead; if not, Catelyn had no clue who or where his mother might be."

People read this line to mean: "if Ashara Dayne was not Jon's mother, Catelyn had no clue who or where his real mother is" but it could be read as: "if Ashara is not long dead, Catelyn had no clue who or where she might be" Hints at Jon's mother not being dead, and living under a different identity.

 

"he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him."

Robert's bastards looked just like him, whereas his "trueborn" children did not.  Jon looks like Ned, whereas most of his "trueborn" children do not, they look like Tullys (except Arya). 

Here is some fun wordplay, Qhorin Halfhand --qhorin = corn = seed, and a bastard sword is a hand and a half.  The seed is strong in bastards. 

 

"How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"

Cersei is just throwing out guesses, but whore = washerwoman = Ashara, she is Dornish and she is a Sister (of the Faith), and she suggests Ned took her baby and that she killed herself because of it,  All the pieces are there, but not in the right order. 

 

 

 

I haven't actually read the series, but in the Witcher, the White Wolf is associated with a beautiful pale woman with black hair and purple eyes. 

 

[Frey family reunion]

48 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Everyone thinks this last line Ned is referring to Catelyn, what if Ned is continuing his previous sentence rather than responding to Robert, and he referring to Ashara?  He had taken Ashara to wife, and Ashara was carrying his child?  The way Ned dishonored himself and Cat was to get married when he was already married.  Neid had two wives.  The phrase "in the sight of gods and men" is used about things done under oath, such as a trial, or a wedding.

I had considered that myself.  Because I do think it a bit odd that Ned would have used the phrase dishonoring "in the sight of gods and men" as a reference to the fiction of Ned conceiving a child with another woman.

I think it is likely that Ned, in the heat of the moment, is telling Robert the truth when he said he did something that diishonored himself and his wife, who was carrying his child.  And I think the dishonor did occur under oath.  But I think it is more likely that Ned is referring to an oath he took when he first made an affirmation that Jon was his son.  It was a lie told under oath, which cast dishonor on himself and his wife.

If so, then it also means that Jon is certainly older than Robb, if Ned made this affirmation while Cat was still carrying his child.

[corbon]

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

but the point @Frey family reunion was making (I think) is that there's no reason for Ned not to tell Jon who his real parents are.

And thats obviously false, since Ned didn't tell Jon who his parents are. Beware of 'ideas' that are observably false like this. And more so, beware of arguments based on them.

Yes, he was planning to. But for 13 or 14 years or whatever he'd not done it yet. Whatever the reason, there was one. It wasn't an accidental oversight.

IMO, he didn't tell Jon before because it was safer Jon not know. Children aren't the best at keeping big secrets about themselves and even if they intend to are likely to let something slip. Once Jon was older, and maybe more importantly not around Winterfell, I guess Ned judged the risk lessened enough.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

And Cat is sure Jon is Ned's son, so it's almost a certainty that he told her he was his son when he first took him to Winterfell, even then, if he didn't, he never clarified he wasn't, and a lie of omission is still a lie.

Refusing to talk about something is not a lie of omission. A lie of omission is when you tell a story but only tell part of it.

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

This is utter nonesense.  Ned acknowledged Jon as his son.  This is what makes Jon the Bastard of Winterfell.  He is an acknowledged bastard of Ned's.  Ned doesn't just show up with a kid and stays mum on why he dragged the kid to Winterfell.

Yeah sure, just because you say so! Its not in the text that way though is it? Thats my entire point. With two partial exceptions, both addressed, it is assumed by all that Jon is Ned's bastard. Just as it is assumed by all that Joffrey is Robert's son.
But we never actually hear Ned say it. Or anyone directly quoting him. Or referencing him doing so except once in a manner that reads 'generic' rather than specific words (you don't 'see' words).

And, just to be clear, I'm not arguing that definitely Ned never said that. I'm pointing out that Ned's policy in this matter that we have observed is to tell careful truths with his mouth and ignore any wrong assumptions made by others.

Widespread public acceptance makes Jon the Bastard of Winterfell. And the only 'acknowledged' bastard talked about in 'current' story is Edric Storm. No mention is ever made of Jon being formally 'acknowledged'. At least, none comes up in a text search.

[Frey family reunion]

18 minutes ago, corbon said:

Yeah sure, just because you say so! Its not in the text that way though is it?

Yes, it is.  Jon Snow's title as the Bastard of Winterfell means that he is the acknowledged bastard of the Lord of Winterfell, Eddard Stark.

ETA: and there is this:

Quote

Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see.

 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, By Odin's Beard said:

I think Ned married Ashara at White Harbor when he was going to raise the banners at Winterfell.  Jon was conceived that night at the Wolf's Den (built by Jon Stark)--a wolf's den is where you would expect wolf pups. 

There's no textual support for it though. Not a hint in sight that Ashara was anywhere near White Harbour, let alone that Eddard married her. Also,  I think it's likely that, at that point, it had already been agreed that Ned would marry Cat in Brandon's place. 

And seriously, why would Ned and Ashara, on the verge of war and having so little time to be together, decide to spend their "honeymoon" in a prison? 

ETA: the lack of textual support, hints, clues is a huge issue IMO. Really not Martin's style. He likes his mysteries, he likes to scatter plenty of red herrings and leave more than one option as being at least "possible" until he is good and ready to make a reveal. But he doesn't do asspulls, he doesn't write stuff just so he can go, "A-HA, gotcha!", like in the abomination. 

[corbon]

6 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yes, it is.  Jon Snow's title as the Bastard of Winterfell means that he is the acknowledged bastard of the Lord of Winterfell, Eddard Stark.

There is no such 'title'.
Chett mocked Jon as such once. 
Ygritte heard Jon name himself as Snow, "a bastard name. My father was Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell". Then she named him "the Bastard o' Winterfell" to other wildlings.
Neither of those has anything to do with Ned formally acknowledging him. They are merely public acceptance of a 'known' fact.

I repeat. the only bastard known to be 'acknowledged' formally in the current period is Edric Storm.  

And I already brought up and addressed Cat's statement, repeatedly. Its almost certainly a generic statement rather than a quote. You cant 'see' words.

[LynnS]

21 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yes, it is.  Jon Snow's title as the Bastard of Winterfell means that he is the acknowledged bastard of the Lord of Winterfell, Eddard Stark.

I believe Stannis acknowledges Jon as the bastard of Winterfell, especially since he offers to legitimize Jon.  

[corbon]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I believe Stannis acknowledges Jon as the bastard of Winterfell, especially since he offers to legitimize Jon.  

I can't find any such reference, not even in the section where Stannis offers to make him Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell.

I did find several references to the Bastard of Bolton, another un-formally-acknowledged but widely accepted bastard. 

[LynnS]

7 minutes ago, corbon said:

I can't find any such reference, not even in the section where Stannis offers to make him Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell.

I did find several references to the Bastard of Bolton, another un-formally-acknowledged but widely accepted bastard. 

I don't know what the sticking point is here.  

[corbon]

22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't know what the sticking point is here.  

Its minor.

I've pointed out that there is no actual direct evidence that Ned ever said Jon was his bastard directly. Or acknowledged him formally as such.
Only that other people believed Jon to be Ned's son and Ned's actions (which are also the actions of an uncle raising an orphaned nephew) 'confirmed' that for people.
We have two relevant sources that do place Ned saying something along those lines - perhaps.
The first is when the direwolf pups are found. Ned says something like lets see what my sons have gotten into", referencing Jon , Bran and maybe Robb too, I can't recall. Ned definitely includes Jon in his generic 'sons' here, bt I point out that by this time Jon is truly Ned's 'son' by nurture, even if Ned has never said Jon was his bastard.
The second is a statement (thought?) by Cat that Ned "brought his bastard home and called him son for all the North to see" (my italics). My point there is that reads as a generic phrase rather than a specific quote. You don't "see" Ned's words. You "see" Ned's actions and behaviour.
As a counterpoint, we see even in a moment of icy rage, as Cat inquires about Jon;s mother, Ned tells her that Jon is 'my blood'. Not ''my son', or 'my bastard'. 
To be clear, I'm not insisting that Ned never did 'claim' Jon as his own son verbally. I'm just pointing out that there is no direct evidence he did. Its all indirect, mostly assumptions from other people, not Ned.

As an attempted counter argument, FFR argued that Jon's 'title' as "the Bastard of Winterfell" means that Ned formally acknowledged him. Which is patently ridiculous. That 'title' is bestowed on him by the Wildlings in response to his words, and Chet when mocking him. It has nothing to do with Ned's formal actions or statements. 
Further, Ramsey Snow was known as the Bastard of Bolton, yet he was not known to be 'acknowledged' formally either. 
Only Edric Storm is ever mentioned (in the current timeline) as being formally 'acknowledged' by his father.

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I had considered that myself.  Because I do think it a bit odd that Ned would have used the phrase dishonoring "in the sight of gods and men" as a reference to the fiction of Ned conceiving a child with another woman.

I think it is likely that Ned, in the heat of the moment, is telling Robert the truth when he said he did something that diishonored himself and his wife, who was carrying his child.  And I think the dishonor did occur under oath.  But I think it is more likely that Ned is referring to an oath he took when he first made an affirmation that Jon was his son.  It was a lie told under oath, which cast dishonor on himself and his wife.

If so, then it also means that Jon is certainly older than Robb, if Ned made this affirmation while Cat was still carrying his child.

Ned has lived a life of lies for fourteen years that includes lying to his wife about the boy he claims as his bastard son, and who he has forced Catelyn to take into her home, to the great distress of his wife and harm to their marriage, and to the vows he made to Catelyn. And he has also lived a life of a traitor to his king and best friend in order to keep his secret promise to his dead sister and keep Jon safe. I really don't think we need to overthink the phrase "in the sight of gods and men" to understand he has not been faithful to his vows to either Catelyn or Robert. It doesn't need to mean he was married twice for Eddard to have forsaken important parts of his oaths to either his wife or his king.

[LynnS]

20 minutes ago, corbon said:

I've pointed out that there is no actual direct evidence that Ned ever said Jon was his bastard directly. Or acknowledged him formally as such.

I agree with this interpretation.  

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

There is no such 'title'.
Chett mocked Jon as such once. 
Ygritte heard Jon name himself as Snow, "a bastard name. My father was Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell". Then she named him "the Bastard o' Winterfell" to other wildlings.
Neither of those has anything to do with Ned formally acknowledging him. They are merely public acceptance of a 'known' fact.

I repeat. the only bastard known to be 'acknowledged' formally in the current period is Edric Storm.  

And I already brought up and addressed Cat's statement, repeatedly. Its almost certainly a generic statement rather than a quote. You cant 'see' words.

I'm going off the appendix which has Jon listed as the Bastard of Winterfell.  And the Bastard of Winterfell isn't a term of mockery.  Calling him Lord Snow was.  Bastard of "fill in the blank" simply means that you are known as the illigitimate child or grandchild of one of the Lords of the castle.  

And i believe it has some legal significance.  If all of the known heirs die off, then being the Bastard of _____ might give you an inheritence claim.  (See Bastard of Darry).

And if you are going to try and disregard Cat's unambiguous statement that Ned brought Jon to Winterfell and called him his son for all the North to hear, then I don't know what to tell you.  I suppose we could later argue about the sky being blue and water being wet, but I don't see the point.

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

And thats obviously false, since Ned didn't tell Jon who his parents are. Beware of 'ideas' that are observably false like this. And more so, beware of arguments based on them.

Dude, that's the entire point, he was claiming, and I agree with him, that there's no reason for Ned not to tell Jon who his parents are if they are Brandon and Ashara. Yes, Ned didn't tell him, but that doesn't prove the point false, it only proves (under that point) that Jons parents aren't Brandon and Ashara.

 

Quote

Yes, he was planning to. But for 13 or 14 years or whatever he'd not done it yet. Whatever the reason, there was one. It wasn't an accidental oversight.

Yes. If he's Lyanna and Rhaegar's we know th ereason, if he's Benjen and Lyanna we know the reason, What reason is there if he's Brandon and Ashara?

 

Quote

IMO, he didn't tell Jon before because it was safer Jon not know. Children aren't the best at keeping big secrets about themselves and even if they intend to are likely to let something slip. Once Jon was older, and maybe more importantly not around Winterfell, I guess Ned judged the risk lessened enough.

What risk is there?

 

Quote

Refusing to talk about something is not a lie of omission. A lie of omission is when you tell a story but only tell part of it.

Someone believing something you know to be false and you confirming it by not correcting them is a lie of omission.

 

Quote

Yeah sure, just because you say so! Its not in the text that way though is it? Thats my entire point. With two partial exceptions, both addressed, it is assumed by all that Jon is Ned's bastard. Just as it is assumed by all that Joffrey is Robert's son.
But we never actually hear Ned say it. Or anyone directly quoting him. Or referencing him doing so except once in a manner that reads 'generic' rather than specific words (you don't 'see' words).

It's almost impossible to imagine a world in which Ned goes to life avoiding to call Jon his son and everyone still thinking it, how would they get the notion? And even still, Ned pretending Jon to be his without claiming it is a lie of omission, and an unnecessary one at that, if he's Brandon and Ashara's son. 

 

Quote

And, just to be clear, I'm not arguing that definitely Ned never said that. I'm pointing out that Ned's policy in this matter that we have observed is to tell careful truths with his mouth and ignore any wrong assumptions made by others.

That is still lying.

 

Quote

Widespread public acceptance makes Jon the Bastard of Winterfell. And the only 'acknowledged' bastard talked about in 'current' story is Edric Storm. No mention is ever made of Jon being formally 'acknowledged'. At least, none comes up in a text search.

Jon is acknowledged, even if Ned never called him his son everyone thinks he is, so in everyone's eyes he's acknowledged.