Derfel Cadarn Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Slurktan said: Well other than it doesn't lol. At no point does Luke say they are being tortured just that they are in pain, which could mean physical, mental, emotional pain what not. If you think he is referring to torture well then Luke is flat wrong (Leia is not tortured) and his vision is lying to him so as to connect it to actual torture is pointless. He very well could be referring to Han being put in Carbon Freeze. So again basically Vader just tortures Han to be a dick, but doesn't torture Leia and Chewie because..... reasons. He also doesn't have Chewie killed because reasons although already proved to be a dick. My small nitpick was and is that I want to know why he didn't have Chewie killed in 1980. Because of Phantom Menace I get why he isn't killed now as Vader has a soft spot for 3PO. All that is true. Except that Luke is still on Hoth while Vader is there so why didn't he just saunter over to where the X-wings were parked (as he can feel Luke) instead of going for the Falcon? It’s pretty clear thet’s ehy Vader tortured Han. Luke isn’t necessarily sensing it in real-time, Yoda tells him he’s sensing the future. So if Luke had stayed put, Vader would have escalated to torturing/killing Leia and Chewie (Han was handed over to Fett). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 Actually it's never stated in the material why Vader tortures Han. You might recall, because Leia asks "why are they doing this?" and there's no response. Your exegeses on the subject reveal nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadlines? What Deadlines? Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 22 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said: Actually it's never stated... It's stated right here: It is a dark time for the Rebellion. Although the Death Star has been destroyed, Imperial troops have driven the Rebel forces from their hidden base and pursued them across the galaxy. Evading the dreaded Imperial Starfleet, a group of freedom fighters led by Luke Skywalker have established a new secret base on the remote ice world of Hoth. The evil lord Darth Vader, obsessed with finding young Skywalker, has dispatched thousands of remote probes into the far reaches of space.... Everything Vader does in that film is motivated by his need to come face to face with his son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said: Anikin Skywalker at the age of what, six? 9, I thought. But the PT are bad movies and Anakin Skywalker is a bad character, which is hardly a ringing endorsement for doing the exact same thing with Rey... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxom 1974 Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 7 hours ago, mormont said: What was that about trolling again? :p Musing on this thread this morning, I just want to note that on a personal level, there are probably five SW films I have no particular desire ever to watch again. Solo, Rise of Skywalker, and any of the prequel trilogy. I can rank the remaining films in preference order, but when it comes to those five, I can't even pick between them. I just have nothing for any of them. I don't even hate them. I just don't care. Interesting. I'd go the other direction. Solo is something that I can kinda re-watch, at least leave it on in the background as it play, much like any of the prequels. TFA and TLJ are the only two on cable at this point and I'd sooner leave anything else on rather than try to sit through either of them again. And I didn't think TLJ was as terrible as the first and third sequels, but it's absolutely dragged down in overall estimation due to the first and third sequel. Maybe it's because there are simply no characters likeable enough in the end with the sequels. I want to care about Rey and Finn, but they're empty vessels without any story ultimately. Yes, Rey is the hero in the end, but her story is so scattershot across the films that she's hard to get a handle on. Finn starts with a potential story that could have been worthy of something, but instead Poe wasn't killed off anf Finn loses story time to him. He'll, these primary three aren't even together really until part of the third film. There is no chemistry. The prequels? Well, yeah, Anakin and Padme have arcs that are harder to substantiate, but we have the benefit of knowing at least something about their characters and there are story arcs there, even if the love story isn't convincing. And they're anchored by Obi-Wan. There is something there to relate to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 55 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said: It's stated right here: It is a dark time for the Rebellion. Although the Death Star has been destroyed, Imperial troops have driven the Rebel forces from their hidden base and pursued them across the galaxy. Evading the dreaded Imperial Starfleet, a group of freedom fighters led by Luke Skywalker have established a new secret base on the remote ice world of Hoth. The evil lord Darth Vader, obsessed with finding young Skywalker, has dispatched thousands of remote probes into the far reaches of space.... Everything Vader does in that film is motivated by his need to come face to face with his son. You assume too much. Dawg, this just isn't how stories are made. George Lucas did not sit there and minutia this shit out like you weirdos have spent the last 40 years doing. The bad guy is chasing the rebels. He wants them alive. Particularly to set a trap for his son. That is ALL the context provided in the film. Nowhere, not once, in any way, is it suggested that Vader is torturing Han to create a disturbance in the past causing Luke to come try to rescue him. You're making wild associations in order to justify what amounts to a conspiracy theory. About NOTHING. I wouldn't even bother to correct the record if you weren't presenting these internal cannons as insoluble fact. Let me repeat: Nobody gives a reason for Han's treatment. Vader is just standing there watching because he's fucking evil. Not everything is a grand design. Sometimes we just need to see the bad guy being bad. If Lucas wanted you to think that Vader was manipulating the force through Han's physical suffering he would have stated that in the fucking film. It wouldn't be some crazy breadcrumb trail. Vader caught Luke's friends. They were in danger, he wanted to help them. That is all that the material relates. Anything else is your own imaginings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 9 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said: They were in danger, he wanted to help them. That is all that the material relates. Anything else is your own imaginings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 10 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said: You assume too much. Dawg, this just isn't how stories are made. George Lucas did not sit there and minutia this shit out like you weirdos have spent the last 40 years doing. The bad guy is chasing the rebels. He wants them alive. Particularly to set a trap for his son. That is ALL the context provided in the film. Nowhere, not once, in any way, is it suggested that Vader is torturing Han to create a disturbance in the past causing Luke to come try to rescue him. You're making wild associations in order to justify what amounts to a conspiracy theory. About NOTHING. I wouldn't even bother to correct the record if you weren't presenting these internal cannons as insoluble fact. Let me repeat: Nobody gives a reason for Han's treatment. Vader is just standing there watching because he's fucking evil. Not everything is a grand design. Sometimes we just need to see the bad guy being bad. If Lucas wanted you to think that Vader was manipulating the force through Han's physical suffering he would have stated that in the fucking film. It wouldn't be some crazy breadcrumb trail. Vader caught Luke's friends. They were in danger, he wanted to help them. That is all that the material relates. Anything else is your own imaginings. It’s pretty obvious. Otherwise Vader would have a long wait for Luke! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 Did it ever cross your mind that maybe Vader is torturing Han because the Captain of the Millenium Falcon is the dude who made it possible for Luke to blow up the Death Star, and very nearly killed Vader in the process? Or maybe for having the temerity to shoot a gun at him? We'll never know, because it is not addressed in the picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toth Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 6 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said: It wouldn't be some crazy breadcrumb trail. Vader caught Luke's friends. They were in danger, he wanted to help them. That is all that the material relates. Anything else is your own imaginings. Are you invoking Poe's Law here? I'm confused why you would go this ludicrously far in denying stuff that is so obvious if you aren't just messing with us. A five second google sweep turns out that all kinds of accompanying media, including the novelization, the radio drama and the modern character biographies on the Star Wars website all directly state that Vader tortured Han to draw Luke's attention through the Force. Which should be obvious from the "clues" in the movie anyway, it's not an Agatha Christie mystery after all. I mean come on. Vader tortures him and Luke feels that his friends are in pain. Draw the connection. At the same time Han says they didn't ask him any questions and Lando tells them that Vader isn't really out for them, he wants to catch Luke. It's abundantly clear Vader expects that torturing Luke's friends will make him come to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadlines? What Deadlines? Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Ran said: 9, I thought. But the PT are bad movies and Anakin Skywalker is a bad character, which is hardly a ringing endorsement for doing the exact same thing with Rey... I don't recall an avalanche of criticism over those aspects of his character though. Mostly people just went with it. Because he's "special". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadlines? What Deadlines? Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 32 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said: You assume too much. Yes, I assume my eyes and brain are functioning when I read "obsessed with finding young Skywalker". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 17 minutes ago, Toth said: Are you invoking Poe's Law here? I'm confused why you would go this ludicrously far in denying stuff that is so obvious if you aren't just messing with us. A five second google sweep turns out that all kinds of accompanying media, including the novelization, the radio drama and the modern character biographies on the Star Wars website all directly state that Vader tortured Han to draw Luke's attention through the Force. Which should be obvious from the "clues" in the movie anyway, it's not an Agatha Christie mystery after all. I mean come on. Vader tortures him and Luke feels that his friends are in pain. Draw the connection. At the same time Han says they didn't ask him any questions and Lando tells them that Vader isn't really out for them, he wants to catch Luke. It's abundantly clear Vader expects that torturing Luke's friends will make him come to him. Did that accompanying media come out in the movie? Did anyone in the movie mention Vader's motivation? Leia questions it, but has no answer. Even Yoda doesn't suggest that Vader is actively trying to manipulate Luke. The film tells us that the gang are captured by Vader. Luke senses this, and the resultant danger, through the force. He decides he needs to save his friends. You can reasonably assume that Vader was torturing Han to goad Luke. I cannot argue with that assumption. What I can, and will, argue with is the idea that Vader had a specific objective to torture Han and thereby create psychic waves of pain that would travel backwards in time to convince Luke he needed to go to Cloud City because Han was in the process of being tortured. That is not in the film. That is an assumption. A not unreasonable one, given what we know about the force and the way Palpatine later manipulated Anakin, but it's not detailed in the movie The Empire Strikes Back. If you wanna have a personal theory, go right ahead. But don't state as absolute fact that the film presents this as incontrovertible evidence to the viewer. It literally does not get addressed. Because the filmmakers didn't think it was important to explain that sometimes villains do villain stuff like torture prisoners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 1 minute ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said: I don't recall an avalanche of criticism over those aspects of his character though. Mostly people just went with it. Because he's "special". In a cavalcade of bad, little Anakin was the least of the problems -- and no one wants to be overly mean to a first-time child actor being directed by one of the least "actor's director" directors in Hollywood history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 Just now, Ran said: In a cavalcade of bad, little Anakin was the least of the problems -- and no one wants to be overly mean to a first-time child actor being directed by one of the least "actor's director" directors in Hollywood history. What world did you live in? That kid got bullied out of school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 Just now, Jace, Basilissa said: What world did you live in? That kid got bullied out of school. I was thinking more critics than kids in school or fanboys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toth Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 9 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said: I don't recall an avalanche of criticism over those aspects of his character though. Mostly people just went with it. Because he's "special". I think Jake Lloyd would object to that.^^ 4 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said: If you wanna have a personal theory, go right ahead. But don't state as absolute fact that the film presents this as incontrovertible evidence to the viewer. It does literally does not get addressed. Because the filmmakers didn't think it was important to explain that sometimes villains do villain stuff like torture prisoners. Am I misremembering that Lando's line about Vader wanting Luke was in the movie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadlines? What Deadlines? Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 18 minutes ago, Toth said: I think Jake Lloyd would object to that.^^ Im not trying to minimize that. At. All. Jake Lloyd had to eat kettles of shit for TPM in a way that probably no child actor ever had and it was truly unfair. All I'm saying is that those specific aspects of his character didn't draw the levels of criticism as Rey's force abilities in TFA. I remember thinking at the time it was way overblown. I just assumed it would have been explored in the subsequent films in the sequel trilogy. Then everything went sideways. 18 minutes ago, Toth said: Am I misremembering that Lando's line about Vader wanting Luke was in the movie? No way! It's like the guy who wrote that line read the opening crawl or something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 12 minutes ago, Toth said: Am I misremembering that Lando's line about Vader wanting Luke was in the movie? No, it's in there, when Lando's getting chewed out by Han after he gets tortured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, Kalbear Total Landscaping said: No, it's in there, when Lando's getting chewed out by Han after he gets tortured. Yeah, he says "No, he's not after you at all. He wants somebody, eh... Skywalker." "And we're the bait!" Lando didn't detail a very specific ploy to send psychic waves of pain through the force to summon Luke. It's not even clear that Vader realized Luke wasn't on the Falcon until they arrive at Bespin. Yoda doesn't warn Luke "he's torturing your friends to get to you." Yoda tells luke that if he goes to rescue them he'll fall to the dark side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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