Star Wars: For All Your PT, OT, ST, & AT-AT/ST Needs

[Vaughn]

16 hours ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Uh, was that aimed at me? I like 9 of the 11 films and love the shows. I just think people look at the OT was super heavy nostalgia goggles.

Not you. Aimed at other posters who claim to love Stars Wars except for pretty much all of it.

[Poobah]

3 minutes ago, Vaughn said:

Not you. Aimed at other posters who claim to love Stars Wars except for pretty much all of it.

Few people hate something as hard as hardcore fans hate their chosen obsession.

[Ran]

 

4 hours ago, Relic said:

However, you can't compare them to the HM, which literally delegitimized ALL space combat, both Death Stars, Starkiller Base or whatever it's called, and everything that happened in that atrocious third movie. If you can stick a droid onto a hypderdrive and destroy an entire fleet than why the fuck aren't you doing that?

Yeah. That's the thing. It breaks the military aspects of the setting going forward. And you can say "one in a million" all you want, but in the very same film where Poe dismisses it as viable, there's a very clear shot of a bisected Imperial Destroyer over the forest moon of Endor that was very obviouisly destroyed with a Holdo Maneuver.

That's a lot more problematic for the Star Wars Universe going forward post-ST than anything else that happened in it or indeed in any of the other films that came before it, PT or OT. So doubtless they'll just shove it down the memory hole to avoid dealing with the repercussions of hyperdrive-equipped, drone-piloted space rocks ending any significant role for large capital ships, capital ship fleets, or battle stations in conflicts.

(I really don't know what JJ was thinking by dismissing-but-not-really it, other than he couldn't resist his own cool image.)

[Vaughn]

Holdo maneuver is easily defended if you think it's likely - if a hyperdrive equipped capital ship is facing you and spinning up it's hyperdrive, then you blow it up. Only worked because of the element of surprise.

Also aren't capital ships expensive? Again, per the Mandalorian/Rebels, most of the galaxy is an impoverished dump where people eke out livings. I don't think rebel forces have tons of extras lying around (unlike the Palpatine Star Destroyer boneyard.)

[Toth]

50 minutes ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Yeah see, when people start talking about how the ST have no redeeming qualities as if it is fact, that kind of, rubs me the wrong way, let’s say. 
 

edit: I think I’ll watch TLJ tonight. :p

Then you may get an idea how people feel when the argument "Star Wars has always been shit" is used to defend this drivel.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

57 minutes ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Yeah see, when people start talking about how the ST have no redeeming qualities as if it is fact, that kind of, rubs me the wrong way, let’s say. 
 

edit: I think I’ll watch TLJ tonight. :p

Try being a fan of Man of Steel or BvS. You have no idea.  It's also interesting to me how it has suddenly become trendy for people to say Titanic was a shit film.  Funny I don't remember people saying that at the time (when it became the highest grossing film of all time and swept the academy awards).

But I agree with this. "No Redeeming qualities" is too harsh.

4 hours ago, Slurktan said:

EDIT: My biggest nitpick with Empire is why doesn't Vader have Chewie killed in the carbon freezing chamber.  With the prequels you can justify it by saying he was saving 3PO but in the OT it's basically weirdly passive for no reason given how Vader acts throughout the movie.

Does Vader do that? Not that he's averse to violence, but it's always in service of the empire or for a particular reason. Killing Chewbacca would have been a bit random at that point.

[Ran]

26 minutes ago, Vaughn said:

Holdo maneuver is easily defended if you think it's likely - if a hyperdrive equipped capital ship is facing you and spinning up it's hyperdrive, then you blow it up.

I mean, "blow it up" is clearly a lot easier said than done, isn't it? Most fleet battles involve lots of effort to take down a capital ship.

 

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Only worked because of the element of surprise.

And then it worked a second time because of the element of surprise, I guess?

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Also aren't capital ships expensive?

One capital ship wrecked a super capital ship and destroyed or severely damaged half a dozen star destroyers that were in formation behind it. That's a pretty great trade off. And now imagine you create something with a similar mass, but none of the stuff to keep people alive, provide gravity, etc. etc., just a droid, a hyperdrive, some fuel, maybe a bit of shielding. Cheaper to produce, still the same impact.

And there are ships smaller than capital ships that have hyperdrives, down to personal fighters. Turn those into guided hyperdrive missiles that punch light-speed holes through ships. How many hits through the power core or engines can a star destroyer take before it's rendered useless, I wonder?

1 minute ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Does Vader do that? Not that he's averse to violence, but it's always in service of the empire or for a particular reason. Killing Chewbacca would have been a bit random at that point.

I think this is referring to when Chewbacca acts up and starts struggling with the Stormtroopers and Boba Fett prepares to blast him. Vader stops him. IMO, the obvious answer is that he was planning to have Chewie tortured and interrogated for any information he might have regarding the Rebel Alliance's bases, rendevous points, etc. 

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

And then it worked a second time because of the element of surprise, I guess?

Well, yeah? Because it's not like the Final Order knows a whole lot of what happened or that there's much communication across the ranks. 

1 minute ago, Ran said:

One capital ship wrecked a super capital ship and destroyed or severely damaged half a dozen star destroyers that were in formation behind it. That's a pretty great trade off. And now imagine you create something with a similar mass, but none of the stuff to keep people alive, provide gravity, etc. etc., just a droid, a hyperdrive, some fuel, maybe a bit of shielding. Cheaper to produce, still the same impact.

And there are ships smaller than capital ships that have hyperdrives, down to personal fighters. Turn those into guided hyperdrive missiles that punch light-speed holes through ships. How many hits through the power core or engines can a star destroyer take before it's rendered useless, I wonder?

So my fanwank is that this is something that is otherwise easily countered provided you take normal precautions - like shields up. It's only when you don't that you get this as a problem. But really, it's just not that hard of a problem to solve as a one in a million thing. You can say that it is astronomically unlikely to happen because the ability to jump in and out at that accuracy and arrive in the right space and time is incredibly tiny, or that it's really easy to defeat, or any number of things, but it's just not that big a deal. 

One could make similar arguments to A-wings being able to take down a superstar destroyer with one ram to the bridge causing it to...list in space and fall? 

I do think that it does warrant some actual talking to as to why it hasn't been done before and why it wouldn't be done again, but that passport scene doesn't need to be such a massive concern.

[Slurktan]

6 minutes ago, Ran said:

I think this is referring to when Chewbacca acts up and starts struggling with the Stormtroopers and Boba Fett prepares to blast him. Vader stops him. IMO, the obvious answer is that he was planning to have Chewie tortured and interrogated for any information he might have regarding the Rebel Alliance's bases, rendevous points, etc. 

That is what I was referring to, and you neglected Chewie has Threepio strapped to his back.  Regardless I don't buy the torture theory. 1) If they wanted that kind of info why not ask Han while already torturing him?  The answers would have even been in basic in case Vader doesn't speak wookiee. 2) If they were going to torture Chewie why not torture him at the same time as torturing Han?

[Slurktan]

14 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Does Vader do that? Not that he's averse to violence, but it's always in service of the empire or for a particular reason. Killing Chewbacca would have been a bit random at that point.

Vader tortures Han for no reason other than to torture him.  He doesn't even ask questions.  That's in service of the Empire?

[Heartofice]

The real problem with the manoeuvre is that no matter how you try and explain it away, I think far too many peoples reaction to it was ‘oh well why don’t they do that all the time then?’

Even if you can work really hard to rationalise it away, I think it’s just bad writing because I’ve seen so many people bring up that very flaw.

I try to switch my brain off during movies , I don’t like to question logic, I prefer to be swept away by a story. But even I went ‘haaaang on..’ after that scene.

Its just bad and lazy writing.

[Ran]

9 minutes ago, Kalbear Total Landscaping said:

Well, yeah? Because it's not like the Final Order knows a whole lot of what happened or that there's much communication across the ranks. 

The captain and Hux both survived.

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So my fanwank is that this is something that is otherwise easily countered provided you take normal precautions - like shields up.

Doesn't this assume the Supremacy did not have its shields up? Seems unlikely.

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But really, it's just not that hard of a problem to solve as a one in a million thing. You can say that it is astronomically unlikely to happen because the ability to jump in and out at that accuracy and arrive in the right space and time is incredibly tiny, or that it's really easy to defeat, or any number of things, but it's just not that big a deal. 

Except they do it again! In the same movie where they claim it's not something you can really do!

They broke it, and they'll memory hole it going forward, mark my words.

1 minute ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Naw that one is fine because it happened in the OT.

It's fine because the idea that if you take out the bridge of a ship you've basically decapitated it tracks pretty well with what you'd assume would really happen if, say, a modern naval ship had its bridge destroyed. There may be secondary bridges, of course, just as there are in modern naval vessels, but the disruption from the main bridge being destroyed could certainly lead to a maneuvering problem like we see in RotJ that takes too long to bring under control.

 

 

[Rippounet]

27 minutes ago, Toth said:

Then you may get an idea how people feel when the argument "Star Wars has always been shit" is used to defend this drivel.

Come on. No one said that.

Just a bit of perspective. Given the fandom, if the OT was released today, even in modernized form, it would be torn to pieces. The reason it gets a pass is because it started it all and because (let's be honest) we were kids when we first saw it.

I'm the first one to have harsh words for works of fiction after watching them, but after some time one can just let it go. There's really no reason to hate on movies that were released years or decades ago. Otherwise, the OT doesn't get a pass either. It's that simple.

With time, I'm more inclined to give even the ST a shot, at least the first two movies. And I love pretty much everything else I've every seen or read in the SW universe.

[Jace, Extat]

1 minute ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Yeah but the SSD falls like it’s in atmosphere and there’s gravity. 

Small moons traditionally generate gravity. Also, the Executor's forward deflectors were disabled before the A wing crashed.

[Denvek]

1 minute ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Yeah but the SSD falls like it’s in atmosphere and there’s gravity. 

All space in Star Wars acts like it's in an atmosphere and there's gravity.

[Ran]

11 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

That is what I was referring to, and you neglected Chewie has Threepio strapped to his back.

No, I didn't, but you already noted that that's the post-PT explanation of why he didn't want Chewie shot.

11 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

  Regardless I don't buy the torture theory. 1) If they wanted that kind of info why not ask Han while already torturing him? 

They did, but that doesn't mean Han said anything, or they felt they had extracted everything they could from him if he did crack, or they were concerned that pushing more could kill him. But Fett wanted to get Han over to Jabba, Vader clearly did not want to break that part of the agreement, and so on.

11 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

2) If they were going to torture Chewie why not torture him at the same time as torturing Han?

Only one interrogation droid on hand? Because Vader likes drawing out his pleasure? Because he wanted Han to suffer before he was given over to Fett, specifically, and Chewbacca and his information was a secondary concern at the time, and not an urgent one?

I don't know, I don't think this is as much of an issue as you feel it is.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

7 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

That is what I was referring to, and you neglected Chewie has Threepio strapped to his back.  Regardless I don't buy the torture theory. 1) If they wanted that kind of info why not ask Han while already torturing him?  The answers would have even been in basic in case Vader doesn't speak wookiee. 2) If they were going to torture Chewie why not torture him at the same time as torturing Han?

Maybe Vader didn't want a stray blaster shot damaging the equipment. Or killing Solo who was standing in front of Chewie or Leia who was standing beside him. I dunno, it just didn't bother me that much.

4 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

Vader tortures Han for no reason other than to torture him.  He doesn't even ask questions.  That's in service of the Empire?

I thought that was to attract Luke. Doesn't Luke sense that his friends are in danger or in pain when he is training on Degobah?

There is also some indication in the cannon (although I think this comes much later than the release of Empire), that Vader feels (to the extent he can feel anything) a bit of solidarity with the Wookies; given what happened to them after the Clone War and his personal experience with slavery.

9 minutes ago, Ran said:

Except they do it again! In the same movie where they claim it's not something you can really do!

They broke it, and they'll memory hole it going forward, mark my words.

 

Sadly, they totally do it again. "Million to one"

[Kalbear]

14 minutes ago, Ran said:

The captain and Hux both survived.

Neither were in the Final Order, and Hux wasn't exactly wanting to talk about things. 

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Doesn't this assume the Supremacy did not have its shields up? Seems unlikely.

It doesn't? Snoke and Hux getting super cocky, the resistance isn't shooting back at all. 

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Except they do it again! In the same movie where they claim it's not something you can really do!

They broke it, and they'll memory hole it going forward, mark my words.

I would sooner bet on Filoni using it in some awesome way in Mandalorian and doing so in a way that you'll praise.

Also, a million to 1 when there are millions of worlds in the galaxy and one has that happen is, well, a million to 1. 

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It's fine because the idea that if you take out the bridge of a ship you've basically decapitated it tracks pretty well with what you'd assume would really happen if, say, a modern naval ship had its bridge destroyed. There may be secondary bridges, of course, just as there are in modern naval vessels, but the disruption from the main bridge being destroyed could certainly lead to a maneuvering problem like we see in RotJ that takes too long to bring under control.

Destroying a bridge of a ship does not cause it to sink. In most naval vessels it would cause a communication failure and possibly loss of automated fire control. I'm glad that you can wank that one away with it being cool to you, but it doesn't make it any less realistic. 

[Ran]

Just now, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Sadly, they totally do it again. "Million to one"

Hah. Probably. Even if it's now 500,000 to 1, now, I guess? 

Also, re:  RotJ, I always just assumed the Executor's controls got borked when the bridge was destroyed, leading it to start turning and moving towards the Death Star. I don't know what, if anything, any of the official RotJ stuff say about it.

 

(A quick Google tells me that the EU basically made this stuff explicit, apparently: the primary bridge destruction left controls veering the ship towards the station, and that the crew on the secondary bridge were not able to transfer control and stop the plunge at the Death Star before it was too late. Which all tracks, because, well, that's a kind of scenario you could see in naval ships.)

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

25 minutes ago, Kalbear Total Landscaping said:

Well, yeah? Because it's not like the Final Order knows a whole lot of what happened or that there's much communication across the ranks. 

So my fanwank is that this is something that is otherwise easily countered provided you take normal precautions - like shields up. It's only when you don't that you get this as a problem. But really, it's just not that hard of a problem to solve as a one in a million thing. You can say that it is astronomically unlikely to happen because the ability to jump in and out at that accuracy and arrive in the right space and time is incredibly tiny, or that it's really easy to defeat, or any number of things, but it's just not that big a deal. 

One could make similar arguments to A-wings being able to take down a superstar destroyer with one ram to the bridge causing it to...list in space and fall? 

I do think that it does warrant some actual talking to as to why it hasn't been done before and why it wouldn't be done again, but that passport scene doesn't need to be such a massive concern.

In TFA, they are able to penetrate the shields on Starkiller base by flying through in hyperspace.