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Alyn Oakenfist

Who was the bigger idiot, Rhaegar, Brandon or Robert?

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On 4/25/2021 at 11:48 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

How about the mood swings? If you say the wrong thing, you might be tossed in a dungeon to die.

In a dungeon?? He knew about the former not the latter.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/27/2021 at 6:06 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

Look. Brandon KNOWS that Aerys is crazy. If guards hear the big northman screaming for the crown prince to come out and die and they tell the mad king, how do you think the mad king is going to react??

What did Brandon know? Aerys only went really downhill in the last couple of years, and as far as I know, he never abused lords. He was savage to people he identified as traitors, and to his queen - but I don't know how public that was. But lords are powerful and can strike back, so he left them alone. When Brandon and his father were murdered that was incredibly shocking and new. That, followed by more mad calling for heads, was what triggered the Rebellion.

Edited by Springwatch
emphasis

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Rhaegar abducting and raping Lyanna is Robert's version of the story. We are not told any other version, but what we learn of Rhaegar's character doesn't match the lust, the impulsivity, the dishonor of the act. We are never sure  Eddard really believes it (although both Catelyn and Bran clearly accepted the story without question.) So, the massive stupidity might have been bestowed on Rhaegar by Robert, as an excuse for his rebellion.

Not that Robert really needed that excuse. Brandon and Lord Rickard had been killed by Aerys, who was now demanding him, and Ned, and Jon Arryn.

Brandon strikes me as impulsive, lusty, the kind of guy whose honour is little more than an excuse to attack weaker opponents in single combat. He is such a tool, I wonder if someone told him Rhaegar was at the Red Keep. Or maybe they told him Rhaegar wasn't at the Red Keep. That would suit Brandon better, because Rhaegar was the better fighter. He could defeat Brandon one-on-one. 

Brandon was playing into Aerys hands, with his entourage of lord's heirs. He might not have realized that Aerys would kill them all, and their fathers too, but he must have been aware that yelling at the gates of the Red Keep for Rhaegar was unlikely to achieve anything worthwhile. Whether Reagar was there, or not.

Robert seems to me far more canny in military matters and diplomacy than he is given credit for. He clearly intended Eddard to rule and to make of Joffrey a better king than Cersei and Tywin would. I think he knew Joffrey was not the fruit of his loins, but accepted that as the price of peace for the kingdom. Just as he accepted that he was unlikely to make old bones when Jon Arryn died. 

Robert's ride into rebellion was more successful than Brandon's, and from the start. He managed to win the Vale, the Stormlands, the Riverlands to his side without tipping Aerys off. Aerys continued to regard him as a nuisance that would soon be dealt with, like an outlaw in the Kingswood, until his son was dead and his realm was riven. Robert may well have had some help in this respect from Varys. If so, he had the nouce to know that and to keep Varys serving him in his own rule.

Robert didn't do anything hysterical when he heard Rhaegar had gone off with Lyanna. That was just the excuse a year later, when he fought Rhaegar on the Trident. Not one-on-one, as he knew Rhaegar outclassed him. Sometimes I wonder if the guy whose chest he stove in on the Trident was Rhaegar. Or if Rhaegar was already dead and his corpse strapped to the horse. There is probably a gap between the story we are given and what happened that day.

Robert's obsession with killing Targaryens, especially Rhaegar, who is already dead, needs some explination. Robert is lusty and not at all honourable, with a mercurial temper, but he has a track record of acting strategically, getting consensus, and using diplomacy. If he secretly believed Rhaegar could still be alive, his killing obsession would be understandable.

His decision to kill Viserys and Dany made sense to me. While they lived, they were a threat to his throne and actively planning to return to Westeros with an army and take it. Eddard Stark underestimated the long-term threat they posed, and ignored how much easier it would be to take them out while they were still exiled children, without fortune or influence. Identifying Dany as the wife and future mother of a Dothraki war lord as a particular threat, shows great insight to me. He is practically the only one who does, and while Eddard was right about the many things that would get in the way of Daenerys's plans to retake the throne, Robert was right to believe that she would be plotting actively to overthrow him, and wouldn't give up until at least one of them died.

TL:DR Brandon. No contest.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Walda said:

Rhaegar abducting and raping Lyanna is Robert's version of the story. We are not told any other version, but what we learn of Rhaegar's character doesn't match the lust, the impulsivity, the dishonor of the act. We are never sure  Eddard really believes it (although both Catelyn and Bran clearly accepted the story without question.) So, the massive stupidity might have been bestowed on Rhaegar by Robert, as an excuse for his rebellion.

The abduction and sex, for love in this case, it's also Dany's version of the story so the loyalist too believed he had kidnapped her. GRRM also calls Rhaegar lovestruck.

So all the evidence does point towards his culpability. The rape is another matter.

Ned also gives no sign that he doesn't believe It.

 

 

Quote

Brandon strikes me as impulsive, lusty, the kind of guy whose honour is little more than an excuse to attack weaker opponents in single combat. 

Wow. The man only went there because he thought his sister was kidnapped.

 

Quote

Robert didn't do anything hysterical when he heard Rhaegar had gone off with Lyanna. That was just the excuse a year later, when he fought Rhaegar on the Trident.

We don't even know when he heard about Rhaegar and Lyanna but Robert himself tells to Ned, who was likely present when he made the vow, that he swore to kill Rhaegar for taking her.

Edited by frenin

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5 hours ago, Walda said:

Rhaegar abducting and raping Lyanna is Robert's version of the story.

Quote

Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it.

This comes from a Targaryen fanboy not from Robert.

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On 4/28/2021 at 1:32 PM, Springwatch said:

What did Brandon know? Aerys only went really downhill in the last couple of years, and as far as I know, he never abused lords. He was savage to people he identified as traitors, and to his queen - but I don't know how public that was. But lords are powerful and can strike back, so he left them alone. When Brandon and his father were murdered that was incredibly shocking and new. That, followed by more mad calling for heads, was what triggered the Rebellion.

Did you forget the Defiance of Duskendale where he killed women and children for the crime of being Darklyn?

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9 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Did you forget the Defiance of Duskendale where he killed women and children for the crime of being Darklyn?

Tywin did the same. When a house kidnaps the King the destruction of that house is cemented.

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10 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Did you forget the Defiance of Duskendale where he killed women and children for the crime of being Darklyn?

Cruel, but not obviously madness. High treason was the mega crime of Westeros - the punishment could be correspondingly big, without looking mad. People of the time might also be swayed by ideas like: family loyalty is absolute, strong punishments mean fewer rebellions in future (= more peace)  or Aerys being driven by the stress of being captured.

No mistake, everyone sees Aerys' cruelty, but they probably see it as part of the usual system.

1 hour ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Tywin did the same. When a house kidnaps the King the destruction of that house is cemented.

Exactly.

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I don't know how anyone could even think Robert was in contention for this.  His perception of Lyanna's disappearance was entirely reasonable, to all appearances was widely shared, and he wasn't even the most consequential figure in the launching of the rebellion, that was Jon Arryn's decision.

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It's somehow Roberts and Brandons fault that two people decided not to tell anyone what they're doing. Do you think Robert would still call for marriage if she simply sent a message that she went with Rhegar cause he's hot? Instead she kept quiet, and kept quiet as her father burned, her brother choked himself to death, as Arryns heir died, as thousands of others died. She didn't give a single f for Elia and how she is a hostage of a crazed king, she didn't care no one told Elia her kids are bastards and she is discarted. No one told Dornishmen that either. 

Rhegar either:

1: Kidnapped and raped her

2. She went willingly and didn't give a damn

3. She went willingly but changed her mind and he kept raping her.

 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/9/2021 at 10:09 PM, Hrulj said:

It's somehow Roberts and Brandons fault that two people decided not to tell anyone what they're doing. Do you think Robert would still call for marriage if she simply sent a message that she went with Rhegar cause he's hot? Instead she kept quiet, and kept quiet as her father burned, her brother choked himself to death, as Arryns heir died, as thousands of others died. She didn't give a single f for Elia and how she is a hostage of a crazed king, she didn't care no one told Elia her kids are bastards and she is discarted. No one told Dornishmen that either. 

Rhegar either:

1: Kidnapped and raped her

2. She went willingly and didn't give a damn

3. She went willingly but changed her mind and he kept raping her.

 

She did lose faith in Rhaegar at some point, but that doesn't mean rape - she had all the months of pregnancy to think and worry before deciding she wanted Jon to go north, and be kept secret and safe from the game of thrones.

Rhaegar would have made different choices; that's obvious because he didn't tell the KG they could release Lyanna and Jon to Ned. Ned the Rebel. Baby Jon was meant to be the three-headed dragon and that means joining the Targ loyalists.

So Lyanna was in conflict with Rhaegar, but no proof of rape.

Edited by Springwatch
Stark loyalists should be Targ loyalists

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On 5/9/2021 at 5:08 AM, Springwatch said:

Cruel, but not obviously madness. High treason was the mega crime of Westeros - the punishment could be correspondingly big, without looking mad. People of the time might also be swayed by ideas like: family loyalty is absolute, strong punishments mean fewer rebellions in future (= more peace)  or Aerys being driven by the stress of being captured.

No mistake, everyone sees Aerys' cruelty, but they probably see it as part of the usual system.

Exactly.

I think it's the fact that Aerys chose to make a mockery of a tradition like trial by combat that really showed him as mad.

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11 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Brandon: "your son kidnapped and raped my sister!"

Rhaegar: *silence*

Aerys: *snorts Brandons ashes*

Robert: Oh boy, a war!

:rofl:

On 5/9/2021 at 2:08 AM, Springwatch said:

Cruel, but not obviously madness. High treason was the mega crime of Westeros - the punishment could be correspondingly big, without looking mad. People of the time might also be swayed by ideas like: family loyalty is absolute, strong punishments mean fewer rebellions in future (= more peace)  or Aerys being driven by the stress of being captured.

 

True...

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