Alyn Oakenfist Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 So I recently came about something from GRRM that intrigued and perplexed him. I can't really recall the exact words, but the gist was that he said that Walder Frey would have betrayed Robb regardless of if Robb broke the pact or not. Which is well and good, but it got me thinking, why does Jeyne exist? Think about it, GRRM could have had Robb come to the Twins to marry Roslin to solidify the alliance before he attacks Moat Cailin, and then the Red Wedding would proceed as before. No Jeyne required and the outcome would have been the same. Unless Jeyne is pregnant. The way I see it, either she is pregnant, or her entire existence was useless. Given GRRM's skill I take this as a major hint that Jeyne is in fact pregnant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 Grrm said Walder would still desert Robb, but the betrayl would be less bloody, the RW happened because Lord Frey felt personaly insulted. "What if" questions are impossible to answer with any certainty... knowing old Lord Walder's character, it is likely he would have searched for some way to disentangle himself from a losing cause sooner or later, but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form. The Red Wedding was motivated by his desire to wash out the dishonor that was done him... https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1116 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Fenimore Cooper XXII Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 Jeyne is to Robb what Arya is to Jon Snow. The love interest which led a leader to betray his duties. She has had an important role even if she's not carrying his child. I think you're right about a likely pregnancy. That just turns up the level of drama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted December 15, 2020 Author Share Posted December 15, 2020 5 minutes ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said: Jeyne is to Robb what Arya is to Jon Snow. The love interest which led a leader to betray his duties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Stark Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 1 hour ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said: Jeyne is to Robb what Arya is to Jon Snow. The love interest which led a leader to betray his duties. I'm just gonna put this here; why can't brothers and sisters just love each other like regular brothers and sisters? Why do we all need to assume everyone on Planetos harbors incestous feelings for their siblings? Jon and Val have great chemistry, and Arya and Gendry are a pack. Why does Arya need to be Jon's love interest and not his little sister? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 Isn't Jeyne the Winds prologue POV? May be wrong... If so we all know what happens to those folks. Pregnant would just twist the knife in more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Tsarevich Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said: snip Spoilered because Winds. Spoiler Not necessarily, afaik. George on the subject, here: “I didn’t say she was the viewpoint character,” he explained. “I said she was in the prologue.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 3 minutes ago, TsarGrey said: Spoilered because Winds. Ok, thanks for clarifying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 7 hours ago, Nathan Stark said: I'm just gonna put this here; why can't brothers and sisters just love each other like regular brothers and sisters? Why do we all need to assume everyone on Planetos harbors incestous feelings for their siblings? Jon and Val have great chemistry, and Arya and Gendry are a pack. Why does Arya need to be Jon's love interest and not his little sister? Because they worship Dany. And since many on this forum are against incest, Dany being a product of that needs everyone else to be incestous. That's why they are the ones who say Jaime and Cersei will die together like in the abomination while all evidence from the text points to Jaime moving on and a base for a relationship with Brienne. So when they hate the Starks, they always ship gross incest like Jonarya Jonsa etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted December 16, 2020 Author Share Posted December 16, 2020 1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said: Because they worship Dany. And since many on this forum are against incest, Dany being a product of that needs everyone else to be incestous. That's why they are the ones who say Jaime and Cersei will die together like in the abomination while all evidence from the text points to Jaime moving on and a base for a relationship with Brienne. So when they hate the Starks, they always ship gross incest like Jonarya Jonsa etc I don't think it has anything to do with Dany's family tree stair, more people trying to think of everything awful about characters they don't like. Stuff like disgusting incest ships, thinking the Starks will side with the WW (yes, for real) trying to make them looks evil for fighting the Boltons and Freys, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 5 hours ago, TheLastWolf said: Because they worship Dany. And since many on this forum are against incest, Dany being a product of that needs everyone else to be incestous. That's why they are the ones who say Jaime and Cersei will die together like in the abomination while all evidence from the text points to Jaime moving on and a base for a relationship with Brienne. So when they hate the Starks, they always ship gross incest like Jonarya Jonsa etc There's enough foreshadowing in the books to think that Jaime and Cersei will die together. I'm not certain it will happen, but it's definitely a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted December 16, 2020 Author Share Posted December 16, 2020 19 minutes ago, CamiloRP said: There's enough foreshadowing in the books to think that Jaime and Cersei will die together. I'm not certain it will happen, but it's definitely a possibility. Isn't it more what Jaime and Cersei tell themselves, adding to the fucked up ness of their relationship? Regardless Jaime's ark (in the books, not the abomination) is about redeeming for his one actual sin, Cersei, and moving away from her, and everything she represents. It would be silly if they did die together. Plus Jaime is probably the valonquar. The way I see it it's either him or Aegon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broken one Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 14 hours ago, Nathan Stark said: Why do we all need to assume everyone on Planetos harbors incestous feelings for their siblings? Maybe it is an explosive mix of asoiaf and p0rnhub, both overdosed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Isn't it more what Jaime and Cersei tell themselves, adding to the fucked up ness of their relationship? Regardless Jaime's ark (in the books, not the abomination) is about redeeming for his one actual sin, Cersei, and moving away from her, and everything she represents. It would be silly if they did die together. Plus Jaime is probably the valonquar. The way I see it it's either him or Aegon I'm not saying it's definitely gonna happen, just that it's a possibility and it wouldn't come out of left field. Jaime is my best guess for valonqar as well, as obvious as that is. Tho I disagree that Cersei is his 'sin', they were in a consensual relationship. His 'sin' was acting like he doesn't care, acting the part people expected of him, and letting the negativity consume him into doing evil shit. Cersei is definitely a part of that problem tho, and distancing from her is necessary, but I don't think it would be off character to attempt to help the woman he once loved once he gets better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted December 16, 2020 Author Share Posted December 16, 2020 35 minutes ago, CamiloRP said: Tho I disagree that Cersei is his 'sin', they were in a consensual relationship. It's not just his both Cersei is beyond redemption at this point. And not only were they brother and sister, but they were cuckolding the King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: It's not just his both Cersei is beyond redemption at this point. And not only were they brother and sister, but they were cuckolding the King. yeah, but that's not even close to the evilest things they both did, the attempted murder of Bran, the murder of Robert, and a bunch of other things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted December 16, 2020 Author Share Posted December 16, 2020 Just now, CamiloRP said: yeah, but that's not even close to the evilest things they both did, the attempted murder of Bran, the murder of Robert, and a bunch of other things Jaime didn't murder Robert, as for Bran, him killing Bran was due to the twincest, it was pretty much an extension. As I said, Jaime's main original sin was the twincest (the Kingslaying sure wasn't a sin in any way shape or form), with all his other sins deriving from that, and it's that that Jaime needs to make penitence for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broken one Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 36 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Jaime didn't murder Robert, as for Bran, him killing Bran was due to the twincest, it was pretty much an extension. As I said, Jaime's main original sin was the twincest (the Kingslaying sure wasn't a sin in any way shape or form), with all his other sins deriving from that, and it's that that Jaime needs to make penitence for. I think his worst crimes were pointless killings ("I do not care" attitude) which were many, I think. Like the incident with Ned in KL. To me the core of his change is that he notices existence of other humans, he tries not to cause unnecessary deaths etc, as if he found compassion inside or tried to imitate it. So I agree with CamiloRP on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Jaime didn't murder Robert, No, he didn't, never said he did. Quote as for Bran, him killing Bran was due to the twincest, it was pretty much an extension. That doesn't mean he's got to redeem himself for the incest. If I drive drunk and kill someone, my 'sin' is murder, or drunk driving, not 'drinking'. Jaime needs to redeem himself in two ways: in the eyes of the reader and in the eyes of the characters. In the eyes of the characters he must redeem himself for kingslaying, easy enough if they listen to him. In the eyes of the reader he must redeem himself for the evil shit he's done. To most people that ist includes the incest, but it's nowhere near the most important thing. After all, they were both okay with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 5 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Isn't it more what Jaime and Cersei tell themselves, adding to the fucked up ness of their relationship? Regardless Jaime's ark (in the books, not the abomination) is about redeeming for his one actual sin, Cersei, and moving away from her, and everything she represents. It would be silly if they did die together. Plus Jaime is probably the valonquar. The way I see it it's either him or Aegon For what "sin" Jaime seeks redemption? He done so much, and rarely seems to regret them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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