Heresy 234 and the coming of Winter

[LynnS]

10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Possibly, but not necessarily. A supplementary question might be to ask why the Dragonstone doors are red ?

I'm still inclined to think that R'hllor is a dragon with a soul and the Great Red Temple is essentially a dragon pit.  The dragon gods that the Targs worship were housed in the Red Temples and that they are the houses of the dragons.

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I

They filled her bath with hot water brought up from the kitchen and scented it with fragrant oils. The girl pulled the rough cotton tunic over Dany's head and helped her into the tub. The water was scalding hot, but Daenerys did not flinch or cry out. She liked the heat. It made her feel clean. Besides, her brother had often told her that it was never too hot for a Targaryen. "Ours is the house of the dragon," he would say. "The fire is in our blood."

.The dragon gods or great dragons might also be a form of ancestor worship.  What's in a name: R'hllor, R'haegar, R'haella etc.? Could this be why the Targs are the line that will wake dragons from stone? 

[corbon]

22 hours ago, Tucu said:

As the only other red doors in the books are in the Great Hall of Dragonstone I tend to think that whatever is calling Dany resides there.

Where is that written? I don't recall it and can't find it.

[Tucu]

9 minutes ago, corbon said:

Where is that written? I don't recall it and can't find it.

The ACOK prologue:

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The doors to the Great Hall were set in the mouth of a stone dragon. He told the servants to leave him outside. It would be better to enter alone; he must not appear feeble. Leaning heavily on his cane, Cressen climbed the last few steps and hobbled beneath the gateway teeth. A pair of guardsmen opened the heavy red doors before him, unleashing a sudden blast of noise and light. Cressen stepped down into the dragon's maw.

 

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm still inclined to think that R'hllor is a dragon with a soul and the Great Red Temple is essentially a dragon pit.  The dragon gods that the Targs worship were housed in the Red Temples and that they are the houses of the dragons.

.The dragon gods or great dragons might also be a form of ancestor worship.  What's in a name: R'hllor, R'haegar, R'haella etc.? Could this be why the Targs are the line that will wake dragons from stone? 

There are interesting bits about R'hllor in the ACOK prologue. Mixed in the conversations and Cressen assasination attempt is this:

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“You are the rightful heir to your brother Robert, the true Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men,” he said desperately, “but even so, you cannot hope to triumph without allies.”

“He has an ally,” Lady Selyse said. “R’hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow.”

“Gods make uncertain allies at best,” the old man insisted, “and that one has no power here.”

<...>

“As you will.” Melisandre of Asshai took the cup from his hands, and drank long and deep. There was only half a swallow of wine remaining when she offered it back to him. “And now you.”

His hands were shaking, but he made himself be strong. A maester of the Citadel must not be afraid. The wine was sour on his tongue. He let the empty cup drop from his fingers to shatter on the floor. “He does have power here, my lord,” the woman said. “And fire cleanses.” At her throat, the ruby shimmered redly.

Dragonstone is a place of ancient power and R'hllor has influence there. Probably not as strong as Valyria but it is currently livable.

We probably have mirrors in Bran's story; Winterfell, the Wall and BR's cave are places of power. The Heart of Winter is likely a lot more powerful but normal humans can't approach it.

 

[Black Crow]

13 hours ago, LynnS said:

  What's in a name: R'hllor, R'haegar, R'haella etc.? Could this be why the Targs are the line that will wake dragons from stone? 

To be absolutely pedantic the name R'hllor is recycled from an earlier book by GRRM. I don't remember which one but I do remember that R'hllor came to a sticky end.

[Tucu]

While we are discussing R'hllor...GRRM is working with HBO to adapt a novel by Roger Zelazny called Roadmarks; from Wikipedia:

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The central theme of the novel is time travel using a highway that links all times and all possible histories. Exits from the highway lead to different times and places. Changing events in the past cause some exits further up the road, in the future, to become overgrown and inaccessible and new exits to appear, leading to different alternative futures.

GRRM was a big fan, disciple and friend of Zelazny. On his death GRRM wrote:

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THE LORD OF LIGHT

He was a poet, first, last, always. His words sang.

He was a storyteller without peer. He created worlds as colorful and exotic and memorable as any our genre has ever seen.

But most of all, I will remember his people. Corwin of Amber and his troublesome siblings. Charles Render, the dream master. The Sleeper, Croyd Crenson, who never learned algebra. Fred Cassidy climbing on his rooftops. Conrad. Dilvish the Damned. Francis Sandow. Billy Blackhorse Singer. Jarry Dark. The Jack of Shadows. Hell Tanner. Snuff.

And Sam. Him especially. “His followers called him Mahasamatman and said he was a god. He preferred to drop the Maha- and the atman, however, and called himself Sam. He never claimed to be a god. But then, he never claimed not to be a god.”

Lord of Light was the first Zelazny book I ever read. I was in college at the time, a long time reader who dreamed of writing himself one day. I’d been weaned on Andre Norton, cut my teeth on Heinlein juveniles, survived high school with the help of H.P. Lovecraft, Isaac Asimov, “Doc” Smith, Theodore Sturgeon, and J.R.R. Tolkien. I read Ace doubles and belonged to the Science Fiction Book Ciub, but I had not yet found the magazines. I’d never heard of this Zelazny guy. But when I read those words for the first time, a chill went through me, and I sensed that SF would never be the same. Nor was it. Like only a few before him, Roger left his mark on the genre.

He left his mark on my life as well. After Lord of Light, I read every word of his I could get my hands on. “He Who Shapes,” And Call Me Conrad . . ., ”A Rose for Ecclesiastes,” Isle of the Dead, “The Doors of His Face, the Lamps of His Mouth,” Creatures of Light and Darkness, and all the rest. I knew I had found one hell of a writer in this fellow with the odd, unforgettable name. I never dreamed that, years later, I would also find in Roger one hell of a friend.

https://georgerrmartin.com/about-george/friends/in-memoriam-roger-zelazny/

The plot of Creatures of Light and Darkness might have some links to ASOIAF:

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The Universe was once ruled by the god Thoth, who administered the different forces in the Universe to keep things in balance. In time, he delegated this administration to his "Angels" (other god-like beings), who were each in charge of different "stations", or forces in the Universe. Such stations included the House of the Dead, the House of Life, the House of Fire, and so on.

At some point, Thoth had awakened a dormant, malevolent force on a distant planet. This dark force, called the Thing That Cries In The Night, is so powerful and malevolent that it nearly obliterated Thoth's wife and threatens to consume the galaxy. Thoth works to contain and destroy the creature, and in so doing, neglects his duties in maintaining the Universe. The Angels become rebellious and use the power vacuum to fight amongst themselves for dominance.

Thoth's son Set, who through an anomaly in Time is also his father, fights the creature across a devastated planet. Just as Set is about to destroy the creature, he is attacked by the Angel Osiris, who unleashes the Hammer That Smashes Suns, a powerful weapon that nearly kills Set and the creature. Thoth's brother, Typhon, who was helping Set in the battle, vanishes without a trace and is presumed dead. (Typhon appears as a black horse-shadow, without a horse to cast it. He contains within himself something called Skagganauk Abyss, which resembles a black hole, not a term in common use at the time.)

The Thing That Cries In The Night survived the blast, and so Thoth, who has meanwhile been utterly overthrown by his Angels, has no choice but to contain the dark force until he can find a way to destroy it. He also revives the personality of his wife and keeps her safe on a special world known only to him, where the seas are above the atmosphere, not below them. He also scatters Set's weapons and armor across the Universe for safe-keeping in the event that Set can ever be found. Having been overthrown, he is now dubbed The Prince Who Was A Thousand by all in the Universe.

Some of the surviving Angels hide among the peoples of the Universe as mysterious "immortals", but others—Osiris and Anubis—take over the House of Life and the House of Death, respectively. Other stations are abandoned, and Osiris and Anubis are the only two powers in the Universe now. Osiris cultivates life where he can, while Anubis works to destroy it. Plenty and famine, proliferation and plague, overpopulation and annihilation, alternate in the Worlds of Life between the two Stations, much to the detriment of those who inhabit them.

 

[Melifeather]

Manipulators have an agenda. Bloodraven (or 3EC if you prefer) came to Bran in dreams in order to lure him to his cave. If Quaithe or someone else were using glass candles (whispering stars) to manipulate Daenerys, what is their agenda? Where would they like to lure her to - OR lead her away from? If someone owns dragons and its too dangerous to kill the dragons, then luring the beast away and direct its focus on a different target might be the goal.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Manipulators have an agenda. Bloodraven (or 3EC if you prefer) came to Bran in dreams in order to lure him to his cave. If Quaithe or someone else were using glass candles (whispering stars) to manipulate Daenerys, what is their agenda? Where would they like to lure her to - OR lead her away from? If someone owns dragons and its too dangerous to kill the dragons, then luring the beast away and direct its focus on a different target might be the goal.

Or more likely to draw her away from earthly ambitions - the Iron Throne - in favour of the Dragons

[Frey family reunion]

14 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Or more likely to draw her away from earthly ambitions - the Iron Throne - in favour of the Dragons

We can't forget that Quaithe keeps telling Dany to go to Asshai.  She also keeps telling Dany to remember who she is.  

The one thing Asshai probably has a lot of are unhatched dragon eggs.  And the role that Quaithe may be trying to remind Dany of is her role as mother of dragons.  Which in Quaithe's mind probably trumps Queen of Westeros.  I have a feeling that there has been an ongoing effort to get Dany to go to Asshai to hatch dragon eggs.  Lots of them.

ETA:  Perhaps this is part of Bran's prophetic dream:

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He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

 

[Melifeather]

38 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Or more likely to draw her away from earthly ambitions - the Iron Throne - in favour of the Dragons

 

30 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

We can't forget that Quaithe keeps telling Dany to go to Asshai.  She also keeps telling Dany to remember who she is.  

The one thing Asshai probably has a lot of are unhatched dragon eggs.  And the role that Quaithe may be trying to remind Dany of is her role as mother of dragons.  Which in Quaithe's mind probably trumps Queen of Westeros.  I have a feeling that there has been an ongoing effort to get Dany to go to Asshai to hatch dragon eggs.  Lots of them.

ETA:  Perhaps this is part of Bran's prophetic dream:

 

I agree with you both, but maybe with a slightly different end result in mind. I'm sure you are all familiar with my belief that Daenerys will never go to Westeros. GRRM is busy formulating the end of his story. There just isn't enough time to have her go to Asshai and hatch dragons and then also go to Westeros. This is just one of many reasons why I don't think she's going to help defeat the Others. I think her role is as the origin or Mother of dragons and that she is a dragonlord, except that she frees slaves rather than use her dragons to enslave others.

[Frey family reunion]

9 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

 

I agree with you both, but maybe with a slightly different end result in mind. I'm sure you are all familiar with my belief that Daenerys will never go to Westeros. GRRM is busy formulating the end of his story. There just isn't enough time to have her go to Asshai and hatch dragons and then also go to Westeros. This is just one of many reasons why I don't think she's going to help defeat the Others. I think her role is as the origin or Mother of dragons and that she is a dragonlord, except that she frees slaves rather than use her dragons to enslave others.

I'm also starting to lean towards the idea that Dany's never going to make it to Westeros. 

If she ever does make it to Asshai to hatch dragons, my guess is that's where her story is probably going to end.  If she "lives" on it's probably through her dragons.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I'm also starting to lean towards the idea that Dany's never going to make it to Westeros. 

If she ever does make it to Asshai to hatch dragons, my guess is that's where her story is probably going to end.  If she "lives" on it's probably through her dragons.

Or perhaps the Red lots' ambitions to win the war and turn the world into a fiery hell will be frustrated by drawing her away to die in Westeros, far from the Dragons

[Matthew.]

On 3/24/2021 at 8:51 AM, Melifeather said:

If Quaithe or someone else were using glass candles (whispering stars) to manipulate Daenerys, what is their agenda? Where would they like to lure her to - OR lead her away from?

I'm wondering whether or not GRRM's intentions with Quaithe have shifted over time, as the story has "grown in the telling;" in ACOK Quaithe seems to be implicitly telling Dany that she should go to Asshai and find truth.

On the other hand, in ASOS Quaithe appears to Dany directly following a dream where Dany is on dragon back, fighting the Usurper's army--but they're all armored in ice, which seems more suggestive of her wanting Dany to go to Westeros.

Finally, this is Quaithe's message at the end of ADWD:

Quote

Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

"Fire and Blood," Daenerys told the swaying grass.

At a minimum, I think this reads as Quaithe encouraging Dany to stop wasting time trying to solve the problems of Meereen, and instead go forth and conquer--though whether she wants her to conquer men or the Army of Ice is unclear.

Personally, I read the Red Priests and the shadowbinders as being distinct, although Melisandre, having spent time in Asshai, is both. Quaithe hasn't presented herself as a R'hllorist, and she hasn't expressed the relentless dogmatism that we see from Mel and Moqorro. That doesn't necessarily mean she isn't aligned with Red Priests, but I suspect that she isn't, and that her goals are not the same as theirs.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

I'm wondering whether or not GRRM's intentions with Quaithe have shifted over time, as the story has "grown in the telling;" in ACOK Quaithe seems to be implicitly telling Dany that she should go to Asshai and find truth.

On the other hand, in ASOS Quaithe appears to Dany directly following a dream where Dany is on dragon back, fighting the Usurper's army--but they're all armored in ice, which seems more suggestive of her wanting Dany to go to Westeros.

Finally, this is Quaithe's message at the end of ADWD:

At a minimum, I think this reads as Quaithe encouraging Dany to stop wasting time trying to solve the problems of Meereen, and instead go forth and conquer--though whether she wants her to conquer men or the Army of Ice is unclear.

Personally, I read the Red Priests and the shadowbinders as being distinct, although Melisandre, having spent time in Asshai, is both. Quaithe hasn't presented herself as a R'hllorist, and she hasn't expressed the relentless dogmatism that we see from Mel and Molorro. That doesn't necessarily mean she isn't aligned with Red Priests, but I suspect that she isn't, and that her goals are not the same as theirs.

It appears that as of ADWD, Quaithe is still urging Dany to go to Asshai, assuming that she’s still the one communicating to Dany:

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She dreamed. All her cares fell away from her, and all her pains as well, and she seemed to float upward into the sky. She was flying once again, spinning, laughing, dancing, as the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear. “To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.” “Quaithe?” Dany called. “Where are you, Quaithe?” Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight. “Remember who you are, Daenerys,” the stars whispered in a woman’s voice. “The dragons know. Do you?”

It seems that Quaithe is still urging her to Asshai.  As for what Dany was made to be, I think Quaithe is trying to convince her that her destiny is to be the “mother of dragons”.  Not to rule.  This is “what she was made to be”.  Which is an interesting turn of phrase.  Not born to be, but “made to be”.  

My suspicion is that Dany may not be the daughter of Rahella and Aerys, but instead someone who was the product of a conception that may have been intentionally arranged for the purpose of reuniting offshoot Targaryen bloodlines to create a bloodline closer to that of Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters.  

[Black Crow]

The point which I think is worth emphasising is that this story is the Song of Ice and Fire, not the game of thrones. As our Mel observes, the Iron Throne and all the other earthly thrones, whether in Westeros or out east are a petty distraction from that greater conflict and that's probably the biggest failing of the mummer's version.

[Frey family reunion]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The point which I think is worth emphasising is that this story is the Song of Ice and Fire, not the game of thrones. As our Mel observes, the Iron Throne and all the other earthly thrones, whether in Westeros or out east are a petty distraction from that greater conflict and that's probably the biggest failing of the mummer's version.

Agreed.  I think nowhere highlighted as much as the cringey end where Bran presides over the Small Council.  

I think it's probably significant that Brandon's story has highlighted the "last Greenseer" while Dany's story has highlighted the "last dragon".  My guess is both characters are unicorns who's birth has either been followed (in the case of Bloodraven and Bran) or perhaps even manipulated (which is what I suspect with Rhaegar and Dany) by the last greenseer and the last dragon respectively.  When Rhaegar comments to Elia that there must be a third head to his dragon, I suspect that he's referring to Dany's birth, which is why in Dany's vision it appears that he's looking directly at her.

[Black Crow]

19 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Agreed.  I think nowhere highlighted as much as the cringey end where Bran presides over the Small Council.  

I think it's probably significant that Brandon's story has highlighted the "last Greenseer" while Dany's story has highlighted the "last dragon".  My guess is both characters are unicorns who's birth has either been followed (in the case of Bloodraven and Bran) or perhaps even manipulated (which is what I suspect with Rhaegar and Dany) by the last greenseer and the last dragon respectively.  When Rhaegar comments to Elia that there must be a third head to his dragon, I suspect that he's referring to Dany's birth, which is why in Dany's vision it appears that he's looking directly at her.

Cringey indeed, but once again it illustrates my earlier point that GRRM was forced to reveal the end arcs of certain characters to the mummers but without revealing anything of how the pieces got there, far less why. For us, this means that instead of speculating how the story might end, there's a lot of scope for why it ends as it does

[LynnS]

On 3/26/2021 at 5:45 AM, Black Crow said:

Cringey indeed, but once again it illustrates my earlier point that GRRM was forced to reveal the end arcs of certain characters to the mummers but without revealing anything of how the pieces got there, far less why. For us, this means that instead of speculating how the story might end, there's a lot of scope for why it ends as it does

So I wonder what these broad strokes look like:

- Jon dies and comes back to life but not by Melisandre's agency.  Because she really didn't do anything in the show but wash his body. No last kiss, no rights of any kind.

- A dragon will die.  Knowing Martin's penchant for killing things in an an unexpected way, that seems highly likely.  But an undead dragon?  What does this have to do with Victarion?  Killing dragons could send Dany off to be the mother of more dragons.

- Clegane throws Robert Strong off a tall tower.  Seems that might also have something to do with the maid with serpents in her hair killing that which no man can kill.  That's straight out of Tolkien. 

What are some of your broad strokes that have a different take on the mummer's show but include their end point.

 

 

 

[alienarea]

Maybe GRRM decided for a ten year gap after ADwD, and to make it real, only starts writing in July 2021?

Jon has been stabbed and was not revived. The wildlings fought and killed off the Watch in revenge, but suffered heavy losses. But they sealed the wall, and it's magic prevents the army of the dead from crossing over.

Bran is still in the cave, watching, becoming a tree.

Daenerys Targaryen is living a boring, peaceful life in Vas Dothrak.

Tyrion has died in the battle of Mereen along with Barristan Selmy and Victarion Greyjoy.

Stannis Baratheon won the battle on the frozen lake and killed Ramsay Bolton, but his army failed to capture Winterfell and froze to death outside.

The mad queen Cersei Lannister still rules King's Landing.

[LynnS]

On 3/24/2021 at 1:47 PM, Matthew. said:

On the other hand, in ASOS Quaithe appears to Dany directly following a dream where Dany is on dragon back, fighting the Usurper's army--but they're all armored in ice, which seems more suggestive of her wanting Dany to go to Westeros.

Yes, this is an odd passage.  You can't tell if this is something that should have happened in the past, mixed with something that could happen in the future.

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys III

Ser Jorah had no answer. He only smiled, and touched her hair, so lightly. It was enough.

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

She woke suddenly in the darkness of her cabin, still flush with triumph. Balerion seemed to wake with her, and she heard the faint creak of wood, water lapping against the hull, a football on the deck above her head. And something else.

Someone was in the cabin with her.

"Irri? Jhiqui? Where are you?" Her handmaids did not respond. It was too black to see, but she could hear them breathing. "Jorah, is that you?"

"They sleep," a woman said. "They all sleep." The voice was very close. "Even dragons must sleep."

She is standing over me. "Who's there?" Dany peered into the darkness. She thought she could see a shadow, the faintest outline of a shape. "What do you want to me?"

"Remember. To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

"Quaithe?" Dany sprung from the bed and threw open the door. Pale yellow lantern light flooded the cabin, and Irri and Jhiqui sat up sleepily. "Khaleesi?" murmured Jhiqui, rubbing her eyes. Viserion woke and opened his jaws, and a puff of flame brightened even the darkest corners. There was no sign of a woman in a red lacquer mask. "Khaleesi, are you unwell?" asked Jhiqui.

 

It's the part where she or something else is exultant.  I'm not sure if this is Dany or Quaithe if she is directing the dream.  Dany is riding a black dragon which is something Rhaegar didn't have and she is riding the ship Balerion named after a dragon god. 

I'm not sure that she is being directed back to Asshai by the shadow though.  I think Martin already said that she would not go to Asshai.  I think this has something to do with the visions of the crones kneeling before Dany.  Martin has named Vaes Dothrak as a sacred place beneath the shadow of the mother of mountains.  She has to go back there before going forward. 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys V

The wild stallion's heart was all muscle, and Dany had to worry it with her teeth and chew each mouthful a long time. No steel was permitted within the sacred confines of Vaes Dothrak, beneath the shadow of the Mother of Mountains; she had to rip the heart apart with teeth and nails. Her stomach roiled and heaved, yet she kept on, her face smeared with the heartsblood that sometimes seemed to explode against her lips.

 

The mother of dragons and the mother of mountains?