King17 Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 1 minute ago, saltedmalted said: If you care for legalese: 1) Stannis is a contender so they cannot just refuse (or accept him). If you don't care for legalese: 2) Stannis had the might to hurt the Watch now. The Watch didn't have the luxury of acting the way you would want it to. Sure it does if stannis harms the watch his cause is finished it's as simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltedmalted Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 1 minute ago, King17 said: Stannis would turn the rest of the north against him if he attacked the watch He will not, not when he is marching to destoy the Boltons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltedmalted Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 1 minute ago, King17 said: Sure it does if stannis harms the watch his cause is finished it's as simple as that. The Watch would have to be dumb enough to fight a dangerous enemy. The North hasn't bothered to respond in ADwD I doubt they care all that much. You are very keen to ignore the Boltons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Young Maester Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 44 minutes ago, King17 said: And yet despite all that the chance of a stannis victory are still close to zero. If you mean the North than you havent been paying attention. If you mean the throne, than that became priority number 2. "Yes, I should have come sooner. If not for my Hand, I might not have come at all. Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne." 29 minutes ago, King17 said: Name a single kingdom stannis controls. Oh wait that's right basically none Name a precedent in which during a succession war one of the claimants is considered a rebel, whilst the other isnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 1 minute ago, The Young Maester said: Name a precedent in which during a succession war one of the claimants is considered a rebel, whilst the other isnt. The Blacfyre rebellion? Robert's Rebellion? In both of those it was clear who the monarch and who the rebel was, even in the Blackfyre rebellion, seeing as it was a succession war 12 years after the succession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walda Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 Quote “Lord Stannis helped us when we needed help,” Marsh said doggedly, “but he is still a rebel, and his cause is doomed. As doomed as we’ll be if the Iron Throne marks us down as traitors. We must be certain that we do not choose the losing side.” “It is not my intent to choose any side,” said Jon, “but I am not as certain of the outcome of this war as you seem to be, my lord. Not with Lord Tywin dead.” If the tales coming up the kingsroad could be believed, the King’s Hand had been murdered by his dwarf son whilst sitting on a privy. (ADwD Ch 10 Jon III) But now I give my quote a closer look, this was of course after the choosing. Janos was still assuring Jon he would rue it "when Tywin Lannister hears of this" as he was being dragged to the chopping block, and Jon sealed a letter to Tywin for Sam to post from Eastwatch when he left Castle Black with Aemon, Gilly, and Dalla's baby. Stannis might have heard at second or third hand from Godric Borrell before the choosing Quote “Would Stannis ransom you, I wonder?” ... “You will find His Grace at Castle Black if my lord would like to ask that of him.” Borrell grunted. “Is the Imp at Castle Black as well?” “The Imp?” Davos did not understand the question. “He is at King’s Landing, condemned to die for the murder of his nephew.” “The Wall is the last to learn, my father used to say. The dwarf’s escaped. He twisted through the bars of his cell and tore his own father apart with his bare hands. A guardsman saw him flee, red from head to heel, as if he’d bathed in blood. The queen will make a lord of any man who kills him.” Davos struggled to believe what he was hearing. “You are telling me that Tywin Lannister is dead?” “At his son’s hand, aye.” The lord took a drink of beer... Lord Tywin dead. This changes all. “My lord, will you grant me leave to send a raven to the Wall? His Grace will want to know of Lord Tywin’s death.” “He’ll know. But not from me. Nor you, so long as you are here beneath my leaky roof. I’ll not have it said that I gave Stannis aid and counsel. The Sunderlands dragged the Sisters into two of the Blackfyre Rebellions, and we all suffered grievously for that.” Lord Godric waved his spoon toward a chair. “Sit. Before you fall, ser. (ADwD Ch 9 Davos I) Cersei knew that Stannis was at the Wall and told Jaime Ramsey was going to Moat Calin to escort his father and the Freys north to deal with him, before Jaime escorted his father's byre (And Kevan, and Lancel) from the city (AFfC Ch 16 Jaime II) So the news was knowable when Sam was putting in the fix on Cotter Pyke and Denys Mallister(ASoS Ch 75 Sam IV), possibly even before Stannis's battle at Castle Black (ASoS Ch 73 Jon X), although if Stannis knew then, he gave no sign of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Young Maester Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: The Blacfyre rebellion? Robert's Rebellion? In both of those it was clear who the monarch and who the rebel was, even in the Blackfyre rebellion, seeing as it was a succession war 12 years after the succession. History is always written by the winners. When two cultures clash, the loser is obliterated, and the winner writes the history books-books which glorify their own cause and disparage the conquered foe Did the Blackfyre supporters believe that Daeron II was the rightful king? They threw their support for Daemon believing him to be their rightful sovereign. They also knew that they would lose their heads as traitors but in the end Daemon was a pretender that gave his shot at the throne. Robert was in fact a rebellion, not a succession war. It became a war for the throne prior to the trident when they all decided to crown their own king. Robert never disputed aerys's claim to the throne, he disputed his right to rule over them. When Magistrates across the narrow sea witness a civil war for the throne of westeros, what do they see? Two claimants that want the same throne and only one can have it. They dont see a rebel, they see two pretenders going at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, The Young Maester said: Did the Blackfyre supporters believe that Daeron II was the rightful king? They threw their support for Daemon believing him to be their rightful sovereign. They also knew that they would lose their heads as traitors but in the end Daemon was a pretender that gave his shot at the throne. That doesn't change the fact that they all swore fealty to Daeron, and kept said fealty for 12 years. That makes them rebels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Young Maester Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said: That doesn't change the fact that they all swore fealty to Daeron, and kept said fealty for 12 years. That makes them rebels. But as explained above, Edward III decided to crown himself King of France in order to challenge the french king for kingship. This was just an excuse in order to fight a war against france whilst not being named a rebel by the french king. Doubtless the kings subjects considered Daemon a rebel because he revolted, but once he claimed the throne it became a war for the throne, in the eyes of the outside world Daemon is now a pretender to the throne, and not some up jumped rebel that decided to raise up in arms because the king was taxing him too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Tsarevich Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 19 minutes ago, Walda said: snip Thanks for your trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrresistable Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 On 2/18/2021 at 2:17 AM, CamiloRP said: You haven't been around here much, haven't you? Enlighten me big brain, was there any other candidate taking the threat of The Others seriously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrresistable Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 6 hours ago, King17 said: Nobody believes the bastard story and at the moment the lannisters control about 5 of the 7 kingdoms I think it's clear whose side is winning and who is considered legitimate. Lannister's control 5/7 Kingdom's.. what? Westerlands / yes Riverlands / currently trying to coerce them into submission and have subdued the main rebels in that area. Yet by no means 'under control'. Crownlands / not really a Kingdom, but yes. North / No. Dorne / Lol, no. Vale / LF has his mitts all over that and he definitely doesn't have the Lannisters best interests at heart. Vale Lords aren't exactly hoping in lockstep with the Lannisters in any case. Iron Islands / lol no Stormlands, Aegon is 'conquering' / fucking shit up in that region and drawing in all kinds of support. The Reach / yes, but really it's the Tyrells & Hightowers. So, 2 & 1/2 Kingdom's out of 9 Regions at best? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King17 Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 4 minutes ago, lrresistable said: Lannister's control 5/7 Kingdom's.. what? Westerlands / yes Riverlands / currently trying to coerce them into submission and have subdued the main rebels in that area. Yet by no means 'under control'. Crownlands / not really a Kingdom, but yes. North / No. Dorne / Lol, no. Vale / LF has his mitts all over that and he definitely doesn't have the Lannisters best interests at heart. Vale Lords aren't exactly hoping in lockstep with the Lannisters in any case. Iron Islands / lol no Stormlands, Aegon is 'conquering' / fucking shit up in that region and drawing in all kinds of support. The Reach / yes, but really it's the Tyrells & Hightowers. So, 2 & 1/2 Kingdom's out of 9 Regions at best? Drone isn't declaring for stannis and is technically in the lannister fold as is the vale the riverlands have been subdued and can be controlled by hostages the stormlords have surrendered. And half of the north is under lannisters control so yes about 5 out 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 On 2/16/2021 at 6:29 AM, SeanF said: The martyr, Janos Slynt. Frankly, if I was a character in the books that was a brother in the Night's Watch I think I would have voted for Slynt. Simply, Slynt is an experienced commander that has previous experience running the Gold Cloaks. Similarly, Slynt is friends with the power controlling the Iron Throne at the time. Finally, seeing that I am likely some poor shmuck smallfolk that was forced into the Night's Watch that would make Slynt's past appealling to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 6 hours ago, King17 said: Neutrality means not aiding any side. No it doesn't, not aiding Stannis would mean not recognizing him as king, which would not be neutral. He's the king, he commanded soething, they must obey. I also asked if it would be okay for the Watch to ignore a command from Tywin, you ignored the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 6 hours ago, King17 said: In other words he is a king without a kingdom and is no more a king than the the riverlands lady who had Robb's crown was a queen. He is a claimant, with a valid claim, he should be treated equally than Tommen by the Watch. He's not a rebek. You can only argue against that if you change the literal definition of words, I repeat, he's not a rebel, and this comes from someone who thinks Tommen or Myrcella would be better monarchs than Stannis. He is the king, the Watch has to keep neutral, so they should treat him as such. Even in-story characters say they must treat him as king. Stop being so willfully ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 6 hours ago, King17 said: Stannis would turn the rest of the north against him if he attacked the watch While Tywin wouldn't because dot dot dot question mark. And Tywin intends to have his grandson rule the North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 4 hours ago, lrresistable said: Enlighten me big brain, was there any other candidate taking the threat of The Others seriously? Nope, but a not insignificant part of this forum seems to think the Starks are unholy abominations produced by incest that eat human flesh, mate with animals and will end up in charge of an amry of the undead. Oh, and Jon is about to be a Wight that will cause Arya to kill everyone in King's Landing because of reasons. Edit: also, sorry if I sounded rude, I didn't mean to offend you, just thought your comment was funny based on how this forum has gotten recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 3 hours ago, King17 said: the vale the riverlands have been subdued and can be controlled by hostages I love the many Vale hostages the Iron Throne has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King17 Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 7 minutes ago, CamiloRP said: While Tywin wouldn't because dot dot dot question mark. And Tywin intends to have his grandson rule the North. Tywin has hostages and has an actual army and can afford to piss off the north how often do you I have to repeat that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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