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The Dragon Has Three Heads. The two wives of Jon Snow Theory.

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Jon Snow (Aejon Targaryen) The son of Targaryen and Stark. The Prince Who Was Promised. His is the Song of Ice and Fire. 

A lot of people believe that Jon is all of the above. many also believe that he is eventually gonna meet Dany and they will fall in love. Jon Snow of ice and fire will marry Dany of fire. that's half good, but when Aegon the conqueror came, he had two queens. It follows then for balance, Jon's Second wife will be of ice (ie Stark). 

Now who Stark does Jon love? which Stark did he last see as a child but will see one day as a women? Which daughter of Eddard Stark most takes after the stark blood? The Targaryens are known for their incest after all... Plus the delicious irony of Arya becoming a queen and not Sansa...

 

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I'm not a fan of the icky incest ships like this. I can see where there may be a narrative purpose for Jon and Dany getting together, but Jon and Arya? I so hope George does not go there. No Jonarya, no Jonsa, no incest in general please, thank you.

Beyond the gross aspect of the thing, Arya is pretty clearly going be with Gendry. There's setup for that, so there's got to be payoff. And it's ironic that a daughter of Eddard Stark and a son of Robert Baratheon did end up together, just not the ones betrothed at the start.

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7 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

Now who Stark does Jon love? which Stark did he last see as a child but will see one day as a women? Which daughter of Eddard Stark most takes after the stark blood? The Targaryens are known for their incest after all... Plus the delicious irony of Arya becoming a queen and not Sansa...

None. Jon will never commit incest. He is a follower of the Old Gods and a Stark. Not everyone is as sick as the Targaryens. 

I can only laugh at the Jon-Dany part which is equally ridiculous.

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

None. Jon will never commit incest. He is a follower of the Old Gods and a Stark. Not everyone is as sick as the Targaryens. 

I can only laugh at the Jon-Dany part which is equally ridiculous.

Now, not that I want to prove anything to anyone, or that any kind of future relationship of Jon will work out without being affected by being closely related to someone, but you're talking bullshit there. Just look:

Quote

The views regarding marriages between an uncle and a niece (or an aunt to a nephew) might differ between the Faith and the old gods. Although the High Septon protested against a possible marriage between Prince Maegor Targaryen and his niece Rhaena, in the north, Serena Stark had been wed to her half-uncle, Edric, while her sister Sansa Stark had been wed to her half-uncle Jonnel Stark.

Not to mention that these marriages happened because of succession problems, whether these people felt anything towards their close kin or not.

I think I have the right to feel offended when you talk with such an amount of incompetence.

Edited by Daeron the Daring

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47 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

None. Jon will never commit incest. He is a follower of the Old Gods and a Stark. Not everyone is as sick as the Targaryens. 

I can only laugh at the Jon-Dany part which is equally ridiculous.

Well, I equally loathe the Jon-Dany aspect but GRRM did plan to have the Jon-Arya romance in some capacity at the ealiest stage of the story. It is possible that he is still going for that ending or perhaps he changed it. But in any case, the idea of Jon-Arya should not be considered as unthinkable.

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9 minutes ago, Mithras said:

Well, I equally loathe the Jon-Dany aspect but GRRM did plan to have the Jon-Arya romance in some capacity at the ealiest stage of the story. It is possible that he is still going for that ending or perhaps he changed it. But in any case, the idea of Jon-Arya should not be considered as unthinkable.

Yes GRRM was planning for the Jon Arya ship to be a thing however everything else changed there is no reason why this is the only thing that is left the same. On top of that we have many anti incest clues in Jon's story. And as a personal note why is our society so sick that we wish to blemish the best sibling relationship in the story?

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2 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Yes GRRM was planning for the Jon Arya ship to be a thing however everything else changed there is no reason why this is the only thing that is left the same. On top of that we have many anti incest clues in Jon's story. And as a personal note why is our society so sick that we wish to blemish the best sibling relationship in the story?

First cousin marriages are lawful in most places, and avunculate marriages in many places.

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1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

I'm not a fan of the icky incest ships like this. I can see where there may be a narrative purpose for Jon and Dany getting together, but Jon and Arya? I so hope George does not go there. No Jonarya, no Jonsa, no incest in general please, thank you.

Beyond the gross aspect of the thing, Arya is pretty clearly going be with Gendry. There's setup for that, so there's got to be payoff. And it's ironic that a daughter of Eddard Stark and a son of Robert Baratheon did end up together, just not the ones betrothed at the start.

Maybe he marries both Sansa and Arya.

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Just now, SeanF said:

First cousin marriages are lawful in most places, and avunculate marriages in many places.

I know. However Jon and Arya are siblings not brothers. Just like adopted siblings are siblings no matter who their parents are.

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47 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:
Quote

Serena Stark had been wed to her half-uncle, Edric, while her sister Sansa Stark had been wed to her half-uncle Jonnel Stark.

Not to mention that these marriages happened because of succession problems, whether these people felt anything towards their close kin or not.

Edric and Jonnel's younger brother, Brandon, also married with his half-niece. So there are three Starks in the same generation who married with their nieces.

Brandon's wife, Alys Karstark, is a daughter of a Karstark-husband and Alys Stark, Brandon's older sister, one of Cregan Stark's and Alysanne Blackwood's four daughters. The other three of Cregan's daughters - Sarra married with a Royce and their daughter, Lorra Royce, married with her first cousin Beron Stark; Raya married with a Flint, their son had a daughter - Arya Flint, who then married with her second cousin, Rodrik Stark; Mariah married with a Blackwood, and their daughter was Melissa Blackwood, mistress of Aegon IV and the mother of Bloodraven, Mya and Gwenys Rivers. Mya married with a Blackwood, and their daughters were Melantha and Betha Blackwood. Betha married with Aegon V Taragryen (prior he became King), and her older sister married with Willam Stark, who was her second cousin.

So not only Starks are partially Targaryens thru Melantha Blackwood (who was King Aegon's granddaughter and 1/4 Targaryen), Targaryens are also partially Starks thru Betha Blackwood (who was Cregan Stark's great great granddaughter and 1/8 Stark).

Rickard Stark was a second cousin to King Aerys and Queen Rhaella; Ned and Lyanna were third cousins to Rhaegar and Dany. So Jon and Dany are nephew and aunt on the Targaryen-side of their family, and they are third cousins once removed on the Stark-side of their family.

Also, if you look closely at the Stark family tree, it's full of incest galore, same as the family tree of Targaryens. While Targs mostly married with their sisters or first cousins, Starks mostly married with their first, second or third cousins (also kept their Stark-blood as pure as possible, for similar reason why Targaryens practiced incest). Those rare people on the Stark family tree, who are not partially Starks themselves, are GRRM's tributes to his acquaintances - Harrold Rogers, husband of Branda Stark, is a tribute to Roger Zelazny (author of The Chronicles of Amber), https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/2757

Benedict Royce, husband of Jocelyn Stark, in the first edition of the World Book was Benedict Rogers, also as a tribute to Roger Zelazny

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Benedict_Royce#Behind_the_Scenes

There was something like that about Robard Cerwyn, husband of Aregelle Stark, and Robyn Ryswell, wife of Jonnel Stark. Though I don't remember tributes to whom were they supposed to be. There was a site somehwre with a list of all tributes that GRRM added into his books, and both RC and RR from above were also there.

So, my point is - Starks are also products of inbreeding same as Targaryens. Thus Jon+Dany will definitely happen, because GRRM did wrote this in ACOK - "A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . ." <- that flower symbolises Jon.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

And as a personal note why is our society so sick that we wish to blemish the best sibling relationship in the story?

Altough you didn't answer me earlier, I'd like to answer your question on why many do not have any kind of problem with incest. 

The best example I can give to you is Sin City (2005). The entire story is built up on a different moral codex, because the city is morally so corrupted and disfigured, that things we morally do not accept IRL are just normal there. That means that being a whore is a regular job, these women walking around the street with a minigun is normal, so is the cops being corrupted, murder isn't really a crime, and the list goes on. The main aspect of this movie (it is based on noir comics, tho) is that someone isn't immoral for dancing naked in a bar, or murdering someone he wants to, because it's still over that imaginary world's moral limit.

The same way, as long as in ASOIAF doing whoever you want except your ancestors, descendants and brothers and sisters is okay, it has to be okay to you too. You shouldn't apply your (our) moral codex on their world, if you want to understand, accept and enjoy this world the best way. That's why people accept this, just as I do. I do accept Valyrian incest (and sometimes I support it too) but that does not mean I would ever do my own sister or that I would ever accept such a thing IRL, because it's fucking disgusting. It's not in ASOIAF, as its moral codex has no problem with it.

Edited by Daeron the Daring

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19 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Edric and Jonnel's younger brother, Brandon, also married with his half-niece. So there are three Starks in the same generation who married with their nieces.

That's interesting, I didn't notice that one.

On the other hand, I don't know why do you have to post your idea of how the Starks have Targaryen ancestry so many times. It doesn't make a difference, and annoys some, I think.

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29 minutes ago, Megorova said:

So not only Starks are partially Targaryens thru Melantha Blackwood (who was King Aegon's granddaughter and 1/4 Targaryen), Targaryens are also partially Starks thru Betha Blackwood (who was Cregan Stark's great great granddaughter and 1/8 Stark).

 

Sorry I don't speak tinfoil fanfiction.

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9 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Sorry I don't speak tinfoil fanfiction.

Don't worry, GRRM will translate my Tinfoil into proper English.

20 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

On the other hand, I don't know why do you have to post your idea of how the Starks have Targaryen ancestry so many times. It doesn't make a difference, and annoys some, I think.

Sorry if it annoys you (or others). Though, Starks being partially Targaryens, does makes a difference. The current generation of Starks are wargs because they are Aegon IV's descendants both on their mother's and their father's side (the inheritance of the skinchanging genes works similar to the inheritane of the red hair genes - both parents are supposed to be either red-heads (or skinchangers) or at least recessive carriers). Catelyn's ancestor, the founder of House Whent, is the son of the Bastard of Harrenhal, whose parents were Jeyne Lothston and Aegon IV.

Starks, being wargs, is a significant part of the series' plot, same as Targaryens being partially Starks, because that's why all three heads of the dragon - Dany, Rhaego and Jon, are both Ice &Fire. So it is relevant and does makes a difference. Also, even though some people will be annoyed to read my "tinfoil" again and again, at least in some cases what I'm trying to convey will get thru their tin-foil hats and thru their thick skulls and will make their brains to actually think. Other people read this too.

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Daenerys Targaryen is the lead rider of the dragons. Drogon, the most powerful of the dragons, is her ride. The other riders will serve as her wingmen to support her during battle.  The wingmen take the back seat.  

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6 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Arya is pretty clearly going be with Gendry. There's setup for that, so there's got to be payoff. And it's ironic that a daughter of Eddard Stark and a son of Robert Baratheon did end up together, just not the ones betrothed at the start.

I can definitely see it going that way and would love it to be honest. I also want to state I don't "Ship" Arya and Jon in that i hope they end up together that way, but am making a proposition on how the story may play out.

Having said that...

Another way to interpret Arya and Gendry is as a surrogate relationship like Jon had with Ygritte. While Gendry reminds Arya of Jon, Jon is frequently reminded of Arya when with Ygritte, including references to her body and attached to sexual or pseudo sexual encounters between the two.

'she could be as skinny as Arya underneath all that fur'

I'm not convinced of my own theory of course, i just like proposing things based on textual and aesthetic clues.

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17 hours ago, Megorova said:

Brandon's wife, Alys Karstark, is a daughter of a Karstark-husband and Alys Stark, Brandon's older sister, one of Cregan Stark's and Alysanne Blackwood's four daughters. The other three of Cregan's daughters - Sarra married with a Royce and their daughter, Lorra Royce, married with her first cousin Beron Stark; Raya married with a Flint, their son had a daughter - Arya Flint, who then married with her second cousin, Rodrik Stark; Mariah married with a Blackwood, and their daughter was Melissa Blackwood, mistress of Aegon IV and the mother of Bloodraven, Mya and Gwenys Rivers. Mya married with a Blackwood, and their daughters were Melantha and Betha Blackwood. Betha married with Aegon V Taragryen (prior he became King), and her older sister married with Willam Stark, who was her second cousin.

So not only Starks are partially Targaryens thru Melantha Blackwood (who was King Aegon's granddaughter and 1/4 Targaryen), Targaryens are also partially Starks thru Betha Blackwood (who was Cregan Stark's great great granddaughter and 1/8 Stark).

Rickard Stark was a second cousin to King Aerys and Queen Rhaella; Ned and Lyanna were third cousins to Rhaegar and Dany. So Jon and Dany are nephew and aunt on the Targaryen-side of their family, and they are third cousins once removed on the Stark-side of their family.

We don't know who Cregan and Alysanne's daughters married; it has not been mentioned.

We don't know if Mya or Gwenys Rivers married anyone or had any children.

We don't know who Melantha Blackwood's parents are; they are so far unnamed.

Same with Betha Blackwood; her parents aren't named yet, but Melantha and Betha are not sisters. I can't find anywhere that says they are sisters.

Ergo, House Stark as a whole has no Targaryen blood. 

Now, House Blackwood is descended from the First Men like House Stark, and we know that there is at least one marriage of a Blackwood Lady to a Stark Lord. We do not know if a Stark Lady has married into House Blackwood. So, as far as we know, House Targaryen has some First Men blood from Aegon V and Betha Blackwood. Just as House Targaryen has some Rhoynar and Dornish blood from the marriages of Daeron II (son of Aegon IV and Queen Naerys) and Myriah Martell then Maekar I (son of Daeron II and Queen Myriah) and Dyanna Dayne. So, we currently do not know if House Targaryen has any Stark blood, though they do have some First Men ancestry.

The only houses outside of House Targaryen that do have Targaryen blood are (and that we actually can see):

1) most recently House Baratheon from the marriage of Ormund and Princess Rhaelle, whose only child, Steffon, was the father of Robert, Stannis and Renly.

2) House Nymeros Martell from the marriage of Princess Daenerys (daughter of Aegon IV and Queen Naerys) to Prince Maron (Myriah Martell's younger brother-- she gave up her birthright as future Ruling Princess of Dorne to marry Daeron II). We do not know the names of any of Maron and Daenerys' children, but we do know that they had them and that their eldest child, a son, succeeded Prince Maron as Ruling Prince of Dorne. 

We do know that Prince Doran, Princess Elia and Prince Oberyn were still descended from this union because after Steffon Baratheon failed to find a proper Valyrian bride for Rhaegar in Essos, he demand the hand of Princess Elia because she was the closest related female who was legitimately descended from a Targaryen Princess.

3) Farthest back, House Velaryon (and they were of Valyrian descent, but not dragon lords) of the marriages of Princess Rhaenys to Lord Corlys, then their daughter Lady Laena to Prince Daemon, then one of their twin daughters, Baela, to Corlys' heir, Lord Alyn (who was most likely Corlys' bastard son, not Laenor's [his legitimate son by Rhaenys]). They are known to have had children even though, again, we don't know their names. 

(Of course, there are also the twin bastards of Lord Alyn by Princess Elaena (daughter if Aegon III and Queen Daenaera Velaryon), specifically Jon Waters. His true born son changed his name to Longwaters, establishing House Longwaters that is still around, so I suppose you could also consider House Longwaters a fourth house.)

As far as I can recall, that was the most recent marriage of Targaryen females to Velaryon males. I can't recall any more recent marriage between House Velaryon and House Targaryen.

Regarding all the Targaryen Princesses that married outside of House Targaryen (and there are too many that I am not going to go into them at all here), in most cases we have no idea who (or if) they married and had children. For those that we know married, for some, we know their husbands' names, for others we have no clue who they married and they had had issue that we may or may not know the names of, we have no concrete idea if their descendants are still around, giving more Houses, besides Baratheon, Nymeros Martell and Velaryon (and Longwaters), Targaryen blood. We just don't know.

 

Long story short, we have no knowledge of House Targaryen having any Stark blood just as we have no knowledge of House Stark having any Targaryen blood (note that I said House Stark, not Jon Snow).

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On 4/8/2021 at 4:46 AM, Nathan Stark said:

Beyond the gross aspect of the thing, Arya is pretty clearly going be with Gendry. There's setup for that, so there's got to be payoff. And it's ironic that a daughter of Eddard Stark and a son of Robert Baratheon did end up together, just not the ones betrothed at the start.

Think so? I always thought that Arya's statement about Gendry liking to 'play with swords and polish helmets' might be Martinspeak for Gendry being gay. That's hardly definitive though. My mind may just be looking for a promise that there won't be an echo of the Gendry/ Arya scene in the books.

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1 hour ago, Jay21 said:

Think so? I always thought that Arya's statement about Gendry liking to 'play with swords and polish helmets' might be Martinspeak for Gendry being gay. That's hardly definitive though. My mind may just be looking for a promise that there won't be an echo of the Gendry/ Arya scene in the books.

Heh. Doesn't every man like to play with his sword and polish his helmet? 

I do think the show largely got the ending of the books right, even if their version was an incompetent mess. Jon and Dany will probably hook up, and Arya and Gendry will ring each others bells, so to speak. The biggest surprises will be how George gets to that ending, including whether Winds will ever be published.

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