The Wisdom of Crowds by Joe Abercrombie [SPOILER THREAD]

[sologdin]

Broad is simply an opportunist.  The cause is irrelevant.

you think the opportunism involves a lumpenized desire for violence, or that he acts on behalf of his kid and just happens to be skilled as a soldier?

 

especially now that Logen is unavailable. 

but instead of a northern barbarian with seeming connection to the ethereal and/or infernal, it's a regular guy from the civilized imperial center.

[williamjm]

2 hours ago, sologdin said:

anyone know if it's confirmed to be a trilogy with a set of cliffhangers, rather than the third installment of a longer series?

Yes, it is a trilogy. If I remember correctly Joe said he would be doing another unrelated project next and I don't think he had finalised the plan for future instalments in the First Law world.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, sologdin said:

Broad is simply an opportunist.  The cause is irrelevant.

you think the opportunism involves a lumpenized desire for violence, or that he acts on behalf of his kid and just happens to be skilled as a soldier?

.

The latter.  He’s good at violence.  Really good, in as much as he’s entirely pragmatic about it, rather than taking pleasure from inflicting pain. He’s the ideal soldier.

[Varysblackfyre321]

10 hours ago, Ninefingers said:

I think just about everyone had the same reaction as you. Abercrombie has done this character trope to death. 

There’s Logen, shivers, craw, Monza, Gorst, logen again. 
I think for me a large part of their appeal is trying to discern how true their want to be better is.

Like with Logen for first two books you see him humanized, in the beginning he saves one when it could lead to his death. You want to believe he can be better even as the story progresses and he becomes increasingly prone towards violence.

Broad doesn’t have any subtlety, and is told quite explicitly and boringly about his need for violence.

[Varysblackfyre321]

Oh does anyone else think bayaz will try to pass off Hilde as Orso’s bastard? It a father-daughter relationship would make the relationship between the two would seem more realistic to the public than the prince taking interest in some random orphan. 

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Oh does anyone else think bayaz will try to pass off Hilde as Orso’s bastard? It a father-daughter relationship would make the relationship between the two would seem more realistic to the public than the prince taking interest in some random orphan. 

No, Jezal has two legitimate daughters, with husbands who have every reason to press their claims.  I expect Bayaz will make use of them.

[Zorral]

Orso's not old enough to have a daughter Hilde's age, is he?

I sort of wonder sometimes why the author chose "Orso" for his name ... as he never was bear-like.  As more books roll on the more his world-building cobble of cultures, geographies is creaking in exposure to the high winds of time.

[williamjm]

4 hours ago, Zorral said:

I sort of wonder sometimes why the author chose "Orso" for his name ... as he never was bear-like.  As more books roll on the more his world-building cobble of cultures, geographies is creaking in exposure to the high winds of time.

He was named after his late grandfather of Best Served Cold fame.

[Varysblackfyre321]

16 hours ago, SeanF said:

No, Jezal has two legitimate daughters

Jezal himself was literally the son of a peasant according to Bayaz who was meant to supplant a less reliable Royal line.

 

14 hours ago, Zorral said:

Orso's not old enough to have a daughter Hilde's age, is he?

I think he’s around 27? Hilde  I think around 13. So he could do it and I think it could be passed off. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

14 hours ago, Zorral said:

As more books roll on the more his world-building cobble of cultures, geographies is creaking in exposure to the high winds of time.

I have never been a fan of Abercrombie’s world-building. Especially in regards to the north.

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 11/8/2021 at 9:23 AM, Corvinus85 said:

True, but Shenkt turned against Bayaz, so what kept Sulfur so loyal? Personally, it was probably just his personality. He likely just agreed with everything Bayaz did, so he was ok with being his enforcer. 

Shenkt has never shown any disgust towards the type of methods Bayaz uses. He employs them himself. Remember he would have killed Monza just to continue the Styrian civil war to disrup t Bayaz’s plans. He’s using styria and Monza as a proxy to fight his former master.

[mormont]

20 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Oh does anyone else think bayaz will try to pass off Hilde as Orso’s bastard? It a father-daughter relationship would make the relationship between the two would seem more realistic to the public than the prince taking interest in some random orphan. 

I think the Open Council eventually has to draw the line on mysterious bastard heirs. At some point they have to ask, 'doesn't anyone in this dynasty just have legitimate, acknowledged children?'

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

I think the Open Council eventually has to draw the line on mysterious bastard heirs. At some point they have to ask, 'doesn't anyone in this dynasty just have legitimate, acknowledged children?'

Bayaz like Jezal’s asencion could cull/bribe them into obedience.

[mormont]

4 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Bayaz like Jezal’s asencion could cull/bribe them into obedience.

Sure. But the credibility of pulling the unacknowledged bastard heir trick for the third succession out of four is questionable, is my point. At that point, Bayaz might as well just bribe his way to a different outcome - a complete change of dynasty, for example. The alleged inheritance of Hilde from Orso isn't really strengthening his hand. 

[Maithanet]

Logen is a vastly more interesting character than Broad. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 11/15/2021 at 7:40 AM, mormont said:

complete change of dynasty, for example. T

Again isn’t that what basically happened with Jezal? He was recognized as a royal bastard but he was the son of some peasants.

On 11/15/2021 at 7:40 AM, mormont said:

Sure. But the credibility of pulling the unacknowledged bastard heir trick for the third succession out of four is questionable, is

Rule of threes; it only gets old after 3.

[VigoTheCarpathian]

Finished the book, and have similar reactions:

1. Broad was just not interesting or fun - he was just a personification of “I do violence good”, without some of the depths of depravity Shivers got up to.  His character seemed too smart/aware, even drunk, to not to have better reasons than “judge says she sees my nature and it stirs my loins” for going along with all of the horror.

2. Orso’s arc was the right mix of humor and tragedy.  Probably my favorite of the series.

3. Rikke’s trick plan seemed telegraphed a little too much.

4. The final seeing left me thinking “ah, shit.  Another trilogy. Hope bayaz gets comeuppance in THAT one.”

[mormont]

On 11/17/2021 at 4:22 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Again isn’t that what basically happened with Jezal? He was recognized as a royal bastard but he was the son of some peasants.

Not officially, no. Officially he was the son of the king and a woman of noble blood. Bayaz tells him at one point that he's just some peasant child which may be true, but Bayaz lies just to keep his hand in. Anyway, as far as the official record goes, no change of dynasty there - in fact, Jezal is presented as the preferable alternative to a change of dynasty.

As for Broad, I've said before that the whole point of Broad as a character is that he's not like Shivers or Logen because while he shares their propensity to violence, he's not a leader or even a loner by nature, he's a pure follower. The kind of guy who'd never rise above sergeant. And that's what he's doing in the series. Logen or Shivers would have killed Judge. Broad follows her, because he is weak. He wants a reason to do violence. But unlike the characters he's compared to, he needs someone to give him a reason. He's there almost as a contrast to Logen etc., to show how that type of violent person can be recruited to any passing cause.

ETA - I'd also note that it's open to discussion how successful Broad is in that role but it's a fact that characters who are followers are by nature less interesting to read, because they're less dynamic.

[Varysblackfyre321]

40 minutes ago, mormont said:

Anyway, as far as the official record goes, no change of dynasty there - in fact, Jezal is presented as the preferable alternative to a change of dynasty.

And hilde also officially wouldn’t be a change in dynasty if legitimatized as orso’s bastard.

41 minutes ago, mormont said:

As for Broad, I've said before that the whole point of Broad as a character is that he's not like Shivers or Logen because while he shares their propensity to violence, he's not a leader or even a loner by nature, he's a pure follower. The kind of guy who'd never rise above sergeant.

But we also already had characters who shared their propensity towards violence, take comfort in a middle management type position and not really care about the cause they’re fighting for. Gorst, and craw.

[Varysblackfyre321]

17 hours ago, VigoTheCarpathian said:

3. Rikke’s trick plan seemed telegraphed a little too much.

Yeah, it just seemed too obvious what she was doing and the set-up for the spy sucked. Forget her name. There was no reason for Rikke or us to have much emotional investment in the person’s betrayal