The Wheel of Time TV Show 6: A Few Turns to A Beginning

[Gertrude]

8 minutes ago, Ran said:

Maybe his failure to get word to his family that he's all right is some minor mark against him, but it's not like he had much opportunity to do that. Emond's Field is isolated, after all, and he was getting caught up in all his ta'veren business.

He had time to dice in Fal Dara.

Yeah, his horse-trading and quarterstaff stuff came from his dad, but he can still get that if Abel is a shady trickster instead of a stand-up citizen. Like I said, they did Abel dirty with this description, but this still falls on the side of very minor change to me.

It also kind of sets up Mat's time at Shadar Logoth and the knife being a more logical thing to do if he has not only a backstory of being a trickster, but shady as well.

[Lord Patrek]

34 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Does it? I hear about marketing not knowing the material enough to doubt that. I mean, the fact that Moiraine is searching for the DR and Egwene ends up with that group is something it could totally be based off, just through a game of telephone.

One would think that someone is proofreading these things?

[Gertrude]

Just now, Lord Patrek said:

One would think that someone is proofreading these things?

I mean, you would think, but I wouldn't bet on it. It could also just be a strategy to hint at it pre-show to draw interest, but it's not a thing in the show. It is all very vague and never explicitly mentions that Egwene is considered as the Dragon. Maybe there is another boy in the village that Moiraine thinks is possible as a 4th but discards right away for the wrong birthday.

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

This is very much a subjective thing. In the fandom, Mat's eagerness to cut ties with the Two Rivers is completely ignored. Meanwhile, Egwene is a sociopath for having ambition and wanting to leave the Two Rivers.

I can't believe that that's an honest description of "the fandom" at large. I can see it as some minority opinion that Egwene was a "sociopath", but I  suspect you've been so long in the trenches that some boogeymen loom larger than they really do.

I certainly do not recall anything remotely like that going on when I was still perusing message boards and rasfwrj.

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Egwene managed to send letters home.

She was in the Tower, and had access to whatever mail network they have. Mat was constantly on the move.

He also did not trust the Aes Sedai and was deeply suspicious of his interaction with Siuan the entire time. And basically was trying to figure out how to get out of Tar Valon ASAP. No surprise if he didn't want to entrust a letter to them.

1 minute ago, Gertrude said:

He had time to dice in Fal Dara.

How does he tell his family in the Two Rivers that he's all right from Fal Dara? 

It's also worth noting that it seems pretty clear the Pattern was literally stopping him from even talking about going back, much less doing it. From TSR:

Quote

"Burn me, I will g -- " He could not say it. Thinking of going was easy enough, but saying he would? His throat tightened up to strangle the words. "Is it easy for you, Perrin? Going, I mean? Don't you . . . feel anything? Trying to hold you back? Telling you reasons you shouldn't go?"

....
"Burn me, Perrin. Burn me! I want to g-g -- See? I can't even say it, now. Like my head knows I'll do it if I say it. I can't even get it out in my mind!"

"Different paths. We've been sent down different paths before."

 

[IFR]

Egwene being a contender for Dragon Reborn seems to fall in line with the other decisions the showrunner has made.

Changing the Two Rivers into a non-homogeneous metropolitan area doesn't make sense, but it does allow more opportunities for a racially diverse cast.

Egwene being considered as the Dragon Reborn doesn't make sense either, but I imagine the writers believed that declaring souls as gendered was not inclusive enough, and so made changes to be inclusive, regardless of how it disrupted the narrative cohesion. Also, the idea that only a man can be the Dragon Reborn is not inclusive, regardless. A man or a woman as candidates is more inclusive.

It does seem to be a point that the staff will opt for storytelling that they believe the relevant demographics will find acceptably inclusive over any regard to the story itself. Perhaps they believe that inclusivity is the best narrative decision one can make, and it's worth sacrificing other considerations for that purpose.

I'm personally not a fan, but it has been an increasingly common approach to adaptations, so I wouldn't be shocked if such is the case here. 

Anyway, I'm beginning to believe this will be a Foundation-esque sort of adaption. Vague instances that resemble the original material, but a lot of "necessary" changes for "artistic enhancement".

[David Selig]

The official trailer will be released tomorrow at 9 AM PT - https://twitter.com/thewheeloftime/status/1453036948595957761.

 

[fionwe1987]

Hoping we get snippets from later in the season, including the Blight and Tarwin's Gap.

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It does seem to be a point that the staff will opt for storytelling that they believe the relevant demographics will find acceptably inclusive over any regard to the story itself. Perhaps they believe that inclusivity is the best narrative decision one can make, and it's worth sacrificing other considerations for that purpose.

I don't buy that. You can absolutely be inclusive within narrative constraints. It isn't all or nothing, not if you have a reasonably creative writing team. 

In this situation, the only "inclusivity" that is getting served is that female characters are major players. But they already are, within the narrative. Egwene isn't a potential Dragon Reborn. But she's absolutely the largest check to his power, the one person who's able to resist his ta'veren effect multiple times. The narrative as it is makes it as clear as possible that she's the main female protagonist, a mirror and parallel to Rand, and she has as much narrative space as any of the guys save Rand himself.

There really isn't any need to alter the narrative here to be inclusive. This much was already baked into the story. 

[IFR]

@fionwe1987

We don't disagree. I don't believe the writers are creative enough to smoothly make the narrative inclusive, and they are taking a hamfisted approach to things. And there's no need to convince me that Wheel of Time is already inclusive enough and that this change is redundant and serves only to disrupt the plot Jordan laid out - I think so, too. However, I suspect the writing team do not think it is inclusive enough, and so this is their adjustment.

[Wouter]

52 minutes ago, IFR said:

@fionwe1987

We don't disagree. I don't believe the writers are creative enough to smoothly make the narrative inclusive, and they are taking a hamfisted approach to things. And there's no need to convince me that Wheel of Time is already inclusive enough and that this change is redundant and serves only to disrupt the plot Jordan laid out - I think so, too. However, I suspect the writing team do not think it is inclusive enough, and so this is their adjustment.

I'm starting to fear this may be the case, at least in the case of Egwene. This change, if indeed it happens, could potentially diminish Egwene relative to the books and it could also invite disappointment. Not only book readers like us would be disappointed, but a portion of the people who place a premium in being inclusive may be disappointed later on when it is "of course" the white cishetero man who turns out to be the major character from the prophecies, and Egwene seems merely the token non-white non-male character who plays second fiddle or worse in the end. 

I can see it coming over well with the inclusive crowd initially though, there are already people cheering the idea and equating those who are concerned with the whitecloaks subgroup on reddit.

If this change was made, I wonder if it was Rafe or Amazon who decided this was to be done. For Amazon, it could make sense as a marketing strategy: a show that is divisive may gather more attention to start with, and once it is running the inclusive crowd would promote it (at least at first) and the "haters" may also watch in relatively large numbers in order to complain online about it. 

I wonder how they would, if indeed it happens, reconcile the supposed negative qualities of the dragon reborn (going mad and all) with Egwene being a potential candidate. If they even attempt to, logical consequences are often ignored in such media.

The change to the ethical make-up of the Two Rivers is one thing, as it does not change anything fundamentally and the demographic appeal is obvious, but casually making a saidar-channeling girl a candidate to be the dragon reborn would be something else. Even if they forget all about if after the first few episodes, and act as if it was obviously a male all the time, as may be the case.

[Gertrude]

I refuse to be all gloom and doom until I see things play out on the screen. Yeah, the story was inclusive to begin with, but it was conceived 30 years ago. I won't argue with some updates that makes a story that had progressive themes baked into it from the start be progressive compared to today's norms. I will only complain if the story suffers for it and it is indeed ham-fisted.

[fionwe1987]

Yeah. While I can't see how Egwene being a potential Dragon candidate works, maybe they have a way.

Say, Moiraine says "women have been known to channel saidin. Rare, but it happens", and Egwene has been aged up so she could fit the date.

Then they leave the Two Rivers, and Moiraine tests Egwene and finds out she can channel saidar, so she's out as the Dragon Reborn. 

That's a small enough tweak that could work.

[Poobah]

45 minutes ago, Wouter said:

I can see it coming over well with the inclusive crowd

I would generally consider myself part of what you're calling the "inclusive crowd" but I don't really see what this slight of hand with suggesting that the Dragon might be a woman does for inclusivity or gender balance in the show or whatever. Unless they want to tell a completely different story with Egwene as the Dragon and whatnot it just doesn't serve any purpose than to muddy the waters of the lore and worldbuilding when ultimately we all know that it's Rand. For all the faults ascribed to him in their presentation Jordan did write a series with a vast array of female characters in leading roles throughout as both heroes and villains and the show's writers and actors have the opportunity to give them more depth and nuance than he could manage.

2 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Say, Moiraine says "women have been known to channel saidin. Rare, but it happens", and Egwene has been aged up so she could fit the date.

Yeah, I suppose they could posit that she's the right age and could be a trans man which would align with my headcanon that in universe trans people would channel the magic that's correct for the gender of their soul rather than the sex of body they're born in to.

[Lord Patrek]

I have to say that I don't have a whole lot of confidence in Judkins and his writing team.

Which is why I can't wait to see more footage to have a better idea of what the show will be like.

The Winespring Inn scene was awful and the trailer more or less so-so. I want to see some acting from the cast and not just Pike. Thus far, most of what we've seen and heard has been extremely Pike-centric and this is detrimental to the show. We know she's good. But WoT is not about Moiraine. She plays an important role, true, but it's not like she can make or break the tv series. I want to see with my own eyes that Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, and Nynaeve can knock it out of the park. If they can't, the show has no future.

[fionwe1987]

23 minutes ago, Poobah said:

Yeah, I suppose they could posit that she's the right age and could be a trans man which would align with my headcanon that in universe trans people would channel the magic that's correct for the gender of their soul rather than the sex of body they're born in to.

Yeah. This actually would increase inclusivity (if only in the most tokenish way), but functionally doesn't change too much of the story.

7 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

I have to say that I don't have a whole lot of confidence in Judkins and his writing team.

Which is why I can't wait to see more footage to have a better idea of what the show will be like.

The Winespring Inn scene was awful and the trailer more or less so-so. I want to see some acting from the cast and not just Pike. Thus far, most of what we've seen and heard has been extremely Pike-centric and this is detrimental to the show. We know she's good. But WoT is not about Moiraine. She plays an important role, true, but it's not like she can make or break the tv series. I want to see with my own eyes that Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, and Nynaeve can knock it out of the park. If they can't, the show has no future.

I agree it's the main 5 who will make or break the show, but from what I've heard from folks who watched the scenes, and what I've seen of them, they have the potential to be pretty good.

I'm more concerned about dialog. The Winespring scene's really issue was that the dialog was a little off, but that could definitely be a context thing. 

[Wouter]

27 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Yeah. While I can't see how Egwene being a potential Dragon candidate works, maybe they have a way.

Say, Moiraine says "women have been known to channel saidin. Rare, but it happens", and Egwene has been aged up so she could fit the date.

Then they leave the Two Rivers, and Moiraine tests Egwene and finds out she can channel saidar, so she's out as the Dragon Reborn. 

That's a small enough tweak that could work.

There's speculation on the Wotshow reddit that maybe they have eliminated the saidar-saidin division. Maybe there is just the One Power, true to its name unlike in the books. They base this because no promo material uses those words, and because of the Egwene thing.

While Saidin/saidar could of course be a concept they will introduce a bit later, it may be a possibility. Uniform CGI effects would help the production, so no need to distinguish the two could be nice. In that case, the question remains how they will explain why the taint seemingly only affects males.

21 minutes ago, Poobah said:

I would generally consider myself part of what you're calling the "inclusive crowd" but I don't really see what this slight of hand with suggesting that the Dragon might be a woman does for inclusivity or gender balance in the show or whatever. Unless they want to tell a completely different story with Egwene as the Dragon and whatnot it just doesn't serve any purpose than to muddy the waters of the lore and worldbuilding when ultimately we all know that it's Rand. For all the faults ascribed to him in their presentation Jordan did write a series with a vast array of female characters in leading roles throughout as both heroes and villains and the show's writers and actors have the opportunity to give them more depth and nuance than he could manage.

Agreed. And even besides the necessities given the reality of production, a lot of things need to be changed from the books. But touching the very core, the dragon reborn and his saviour/destroyer paradox tied to the taint, that's something better not done. And teasing something but then not doing it, is not very fair for the viewers.

3 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

I have to say that I don't have a whole lot of confidence in Judkins and his writing team.

Which is why I can't wait to see more footage to have a better idea of what the show will be like.

The Winespring Inn scene was awful and the trailer more or less so-so. I want to see some acting from the cast and not just Pike. Thus far, most of what we've seen and heard has been extremely Pike-centric and this is detrimental to the show. We know she's good. But WoT is not about Moiraine. She plays an important role, true, but it's not like she can make or break the tv series. I want to see with my own eyes that Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, and Nynaeve can knock it out of the park. If they can't, the show has no future.

Moiraine is a huge character in the Eye of the World, though. Much like Ned Stark/Sean Bean in the 1ste season of GoT, she can carry the show.

Mat's actor has already been replaced, for unknown reason. Though I don't think Barney nor the others will be bad, actor quality is rarely the problem nowadays.

[Lord Patrek]

1 minute ago, fionwe1987 said:

Yeah. This actually would increase inclusivity (if only in the most tokenish way), but functionally doesn't change too much of the story.

I agree it's the main 5 who will make or break the show, but from what I've heard from folks who watched the scenes, and what I've seen of them, they have the potential to be pretty good.

I'm more concerned about dialog. The Winespring scene's really issue was that the dialog was a little off, but that could definitely be a context thing. 

It's not just about dialog, though this is extremely important.

The acting was overdone in the Winespring scene, to such an extent that Lan looked like a caricature. I'm scared, because this was B-movie level of crappiness. It's just one scene, yes. But if it's representative of the rest. . .

[IFR]

20 minutes ago, Poobah said:

I would generally consider myself part of what you're calling the "inclusive crowd" but I don't really see what this slight of hand with suggesting that the Dragon might be a woman does for inclusivity or gender balance in the show or whatever.

What constitutes as inclusive is completely subjective, often contradictory and always in flux. The boarder you address noted that some people are celebrating the idea of Egwene being a DR candidate as a positive, more inclusive change. You opine that it is unnecessary. This is entirely a matter of opinion, and we don't know what the writers' stance is on that point.

I'm merely saying there has been a precedence of decision making that would lead to the narrative choice where Egwene is a candidate to be unsurprising.

She was aged up, and the writers have been openly willing to make changes in service of facilitating more inclusiveness.

It is indeed all speculation, but that's really what this thread has mostly been about.

I'm not trying to start a conversation about what degree of alteration to the story is acceptable to promote inclusivity, or whether it's good or bad.

I'm simply making an observation, and justifying from where my observation arises.

[fionwe1987]

2 minutes ago, Wouter said:

There's speculation on the Wotshow reddit that maybe they have eliminated the saidar-saidin division. Maybe there is just the One Power, true to its name unlike in the books. They base this because no promo material uses those words, and because of the Egwene thing.

While Saidin/saidar could of course be a concept they will introduce a bit later, it may be a possibility. Uniform CGI effects would help the production, so no need to distinguish the two could be nice. In that case, the question remains how they will explain why the taint seemingly only affects males.

But we've already seen saidin and it looks different.

If there's no division of the Source, there's no reason to do the research that frees the Dark One. And how are women Aes Sedai sane if they're using the same tainted One Power as the men? 

Trust Reddit to predictably go overboard, lol.

[Wouter]

13 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

But we've already seen saidin and it looks different.

If there's no division of the Source, there's no reason to do the research that frees the Dark One. And how are women Aes Sedai sane if they're using the same tainted One Power as the men? 

Trust Reddit to predictably go overboard, lol.

I've not looked at the weave effects closely. Those who speculate about it on reddit say the difference is the taint rather than the source.

Why the taint would only affect men if the source is the same is unknown, but that doesn't mean the showrunners wouldn't do it. Different turning of the wheel.

And the show doesn't need to go in to how the Dark One was freed, or could change how that happened if they do. While I don't know if this speculation may turn out to be true, the showrunners have already shown willingness to change quite a lot. It would tie well into the Egwene thing.

[Corvinus85]

24 minutes ago, Wouter said:

I've not looked at the weave effects closely. Those who speculate about it on reddit say the difference is the taint rather than the source.

Why the taint would only affect men if the source is the same is unknown, but that doesn't mean the showrunners wouldn't do it. Different turning of the wheel.

And the show doesn't need to go in to how the Dark One was freed, or could change how that happened if they do. While I don't know if this speculation may turn out to be true, the showrunners have already shown willingness to change quite a lot. It would tie well into the Egwene thing.

The turnings of the Wheel shouldn't have an effect on the Source that drives it, where the One Power comes from.