Tucu Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 Anyone familiar with T.S. Eliot's Four Quartets? the Born with the dead novella used pieces of Little Gidding as transitions between chapters/sections Quote What the dead had no speech for, when living, They can tell you, being dead: the communication Of the dead is tongued with fire beyond the language of the living Quote We die with the dying; See, they depart, and we go with them.We are born with the dead: See, they return, and bring us with them Full poem here: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/history/winter/w3206/edit/tseliotlittlegidding.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted November 3, 2021 Author Share Posted November 3, 2021 2 hours ago, alienarea said: What I am interested in is how the "Neverborn" concept is supposed to fit with the Corpse Queen. What happens if a pregnant woman dies and is raised from the dead - will the pregnancy continue, if so, how? As I argued in that thread, if we're dealing with "free spirits" then the corporeal bodies are irrelevant. They are not to be confused with wights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 Just a break from our regularly scheduled program...Amazon Prime has a series based on The Wheel of Time, beginning November 19th...just in case anyone is interested. @LynnS aka Min. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 I should have inserted something about Archmaester Rigney in that last post and the dragon reborn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 I've had an earache for a few days. If it doesn't get any better by tomorrow, I'll go to hospital. Confound it! It's always something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asongofheresy Posted November 4, 2021 Share Posted November 4, 2021 An interesting observation, there are seven Graces of Ghis, green, blue, red, white, pink, purple, and gold, the color seven and the almost match to rainbow made me think if there is an Andal-Ghiscari connection, and of course I ended up thinking if Melisandre could be a red grace or not. An edit, @Melifeather I know you like Ashara and Lyanna as false sister figures, what would you think of them being parallels of Asteria and Leto? They are sisters from Greek myths, Asteria is related to stars, while Leto means oblivion, and related to lotus flower that causes oblivion. Both women are chased by Zeus the Thunder God, and Asteria turns into quail Island that "fall from the heaven like a star", island of Asteria gave refuge to Leto who gave birth to Zeus' twins Apollo and Artemis. Artemis may be raised by Asteria because one of her aspects is turn into a seperate figure, Hekate, as daughter of Asteria. And if Ashara fall from the Starfall, did she become Quaithe, is this name a word play on the quail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted November 4, 2021 Share Posted November 4, 2021 10 hours ago, asongofheresy said: An interesting observation, there are seven Graces of Ghis, green, blue, red, white, pink, purple, and gold, the color seven and the almost match to rainbow made me think if there is an Andal-Ghiscari connection, and of course I ended up thinking if Melisandre could be a red grace or not. An edit, @Melifeather I know you like Ashara and Lyanna as false sister figures, what would you think of them being parallels of Asteria and Leto? They are sisters from Greek myths, Asteria is related to stars, while Leto means oblivion, and related to lotus flower that causes oblivion. Both women are chased by Zeus the Thunder God, and Asteria turns into quail Island that "fall from the heaven like a star", island of Asteria gave refuge to Leto who gave birth to Zeus' twins Apollo and Artemis. Artemis may be raised as Asteria because one of her aspects is turn into a seperate figure, Hekate, as daughter of Asteria. And if Ashara fall from the Starfall, did she become Quaithe, is this name a word play on the quail I am not familiar with Asteria and Leto, but it is interesting, and GRRM has inserted multiple references to pretty much anything he's ever read and struck his fancy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted November 4, 2021 Share Posted November 4, 2021 I just found out that the Fire&Blood youtube channel has been uploading videos with the history of some houses. The one for the Daynes, Freys and Tarlys is this: The Dayne section is narrated by Ned and we get a new version of how he killed Arthur Dayne. He stabbed Arthur in the back with a dagger while Arthur was kneeling. More videos about houses here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7B89qgniixGyQsI5B7MZdQ/videos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted November 4, 2021 Share Posted November 4, 2021 7 minutes ago, Tucu said: I just found out that the Fire&Blood youtube channel has been uploading videos with the history of some houses. The one for the Daynes, Freys and Tarlys is this: The Dayne section is narrated by Ned and we get a new version of how he killed Arthur Dayne. He stabbed Arthur in the back with a dagger while Arthur was kneeling. More videos about houses here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7B89qgniixGyQsI5B7MZdQ/videos My suspicion is that Arthur let Ned kill him. In my scenario, Arthur's last King's guard duty dealt with the sacrifice of an infant with king's blood, and Arthur chose death over dishonor, basically solving Jaime's dilemna, when two oaths by a knight come into conflict. Did the narration elaborate on any other circumstances? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asongofheresy Posted November 4, 2021 Share Posted November 4, 2021 12 minutes ago, Melifeather said: I am not familiar with Asteria and Leto, but it is interesting, and GRRM has inserted multiple references to pretty much anything he's ever read and struck his fancy! Yeah, he has references to different myths, I wonder if there are other nods like this? Robert is certainly a Zeus figure, and Cersei is Hera, Sansa has a little bit of Persephone imagery, and I can see Azor Ahai as Hephaistos especially the myth of him as Typhon, a serpent of destruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asongofheresy Posted November 4, 2021 Share Posted November 4, 2021 13 minutes ago, Tucu said: I just found out that the Fire&Blood youtube channel has been uploading videos with the history of some houses. The one for the Daynes, Freys and Tarlys is this: The Dayne section is narrated by Ned and we get a new version of how he killed Arthur Dayne. He stabbed Arthur in the back with a dagger while Arthur was kneeling. More videos about houses here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7B89qgniixGyQsI5B7MZdQ/videos Now, that's something honorable Ned Stark wouldn't do, I still think Arthur could be Mance Rayder, we will see if I am right or wrong during TWOW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted November 4, 2021 Share Posted November 4, 2021 If we're chiming in with our theories about that then I'll share mine. I think Howland skinchanged Arthur and he reacted much like Thistle did with fear and confusion, and Ned killed him - himself not fully realizing what Howland did in that moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted November 4, 2021 Share Posted November 4, 2021 5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said: My suspicion is that Arthur let Ned kill him. In my scenario, Arthur's last King's guard duty dealt with the sacrifice of an infant with king's blood, and Arthur chose death over dishonor, basically solving Jaime's dilemna, when two oaths by a knight come into conflict. Did the narration elaborate on any other circumstances? Not much. Just this:"Arthur didn't felt angry or betrayed; he did his duty to the last even if he found it dishonourable and even though he knew what awaited me in that tower. Ser Arthur died the greatest knight who ever lived" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted November 4, 2021 Share Posted November 4, 2021 1 minute ago, Tucu said: Not much. Just this:"Arthur didn't felt angry or betrayed; he did his duty to the last even if he found it dishonourable and even though he knew what awaited me in that tower. Ser Arthur died the greatest knight who ever lived" Hmm, that could line up with my scenario Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asongofheresy Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 Wait, the video claims Ned returned Dawn after Robert's coronation? Robert would be crowned 2-4 weeks after Sack of KL maybe, or 6-8 weeks if the regime change and Robert's wounds caused some delays, then Ned's journey to Stormlands and Dorne will be during Robert's early reign, and we will have Robert ordering Stannis to take Dragonstone as king as well, okay my confusion is cleared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted November 5, 2021 Author Share Posted November 5, 2021 5 minutes ago, asongofheresy said: Wait, the video claims Ned returned Dawn after Robert's coronation? That's a detail I don't remember from the main series? The precise timing isn't specified in the book, but this seems an entirely reasonable scenario Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asongofheresy Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 3 minutes ago, Black Crow said: The precise timing isn't specified in the book, but this seems an entirely reasonable scenario Yeah, I just realised that myself, Ned's journey to south to lift siege of Stormlands must be a command from Robert as king, and after that he went to Dorne and return Dawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 4 hours ago, asongofheresy said: Yeah, I just realised that myself, Ned's journey to south to lift siege of Stormlands must be a command from Robert as king, and after that he went to Dorne and return Dawn. But he killed Arthur before, i.e. the fight of the ToJ happened before Robert's coronation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 21 minutes ago, alienarea said: But he killed Arthur before, i.e. the fight of the ToJ happened before Robert's coronation? Sounds reasonable. Ned left the day after Robert got to KL. Ned probably travelled a lot before getting back to WF with Jon. There is the coronation, the reconciliation between Ned&Bob and Bob's marriage. As always GRRM is loose with the timeline and order of events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 17 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: Did the narration elaborate on any other circumstances? If it wasn't for Howland, Arthur would have killed Ned, or so he said. So what is implied is that Howland stabbed Arthur in the back. I'm not sure how much I want to trust these shows after the last one. Would Martin reveal this information after keeping Howland a mystery for so long? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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