Worst plan ever made in the saga ?

[BlackLightning]

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

it was morally wrong for Aegon to burn Dornish civilians alive.

It depends

I understand the point that @KingAerys_II is trying to make: all of Dornish society is culpable because rather than surrender with honor and/or ask for terms when outnumbered/outgunned like every other region in Westeros (excluding the Free Folk beyond the Wall), the Dornish chose to resort to acts of unmitigated depravity.

And I'm mostly inclined to agree: the Oakheart/Cafferen wedding is basically another Red Wedding. It is both absolutely deplorable, inexcusable and impractical. Yes, the Red Wedding is more depraved than the Oakheart/Cafferen wedding because the victims were guests and in-laws...but the Oakheart/Cafferen wedding is right up there. At least, you can make the argument that Walder Frey, Tywin Lannister, Sybil Westering and Roose Bolton had made a sensible, political decision and that Robb Stark had really messed up. The Oakheart/Cafferen wedding was an completely illogical atrocity. Committed by both people highborn and lowborn...and you can rest assured that they had plenty of support at home.

And slavery of all things? Slavery is abominable to the Fot7 and yet the Wyls claim to be followers of the Fot7. So...???

And I don't want to say that civilians are fair game in Dorne but...the Dornish regularly employed protected civilian classes (women, children, elderly, handicapped, mentally ill) as unarmored soldiers in battles and sieges...and peace talks. Therefore, is there really such a thing as a civilian in the First Dornish War?

I don't know if you're American or not but some of the most beloved American generals and presidents have done just as bad if not worse than the Targaryens. Yes, I'm talking about WWII's Eisenhower, Patton and Truman but I'm also talking about Barack Obama.

And by worse than the Targaryens, I'm talking about maiming and torturing prisoners in dark, underground hovels. Which, as it were, is the same sort of thing that the Dornish were doing.

The fact that Wyl Widowlover and his small Dornish army were able to get so far into the Reach unmolested (Old Oak is not only close to the Summer Sea but it's very close to the Westerlands) is both horrifying and astonishing...and says a lot about the worthiness and readiness of the Tyrells as Lords Paramount. Frankly, I would have punished the Tyrells. An army of hostile Dornishmen being able to march past the heartland of the Reach and get within spitting distance of the Westerlands is like wildlings making it just south of the Barrowlands. Warden of the South, my ass.

[Groo]

Petyr Baelish challenging Brandon Stark to a duel for Catelyn's hand. Even if he won, Hoster wouldn't have agreed to it. Catelyn didn't agree to it and clearly rejected him. There was no possibility of a win here.

[KingAerys_II]

7 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

It depends

I understand the point that @KingAerys_II is trying to make: all of Dornish society is culpable because rather than surrender with honor and/or ask for terms when outnumbered/outgunned like every other region in Westeros (excluding the Free Folk beyond the Wall), the Dornish chose to resort to acts of unmitigated depravity.

And I'm mostly inclined to agree: the Oakheart/Cafferen wedding is basically another Red Wedding. It is both absolutely deplorable, inexcusable and impractical. Yes, the Red Wedding is more depraved than the Oakheart/Cafferen wedding because the victims were guests and in-laws...but the Oakheart/Cafferen wedding is right up there. At least, you can make the argument that Walder Frey, Tywin Lannister, Sybil Westering and Roose Bolton had made a sensible, political decision and that Robb Stark had really messed up. The Oakheart/Cafferen wedding was an completely illogical atrocity. Committed by both people highborn and lowborn...and you can rest assured that they had plenty of support at home.

And slavery of all things? Slavery is abominable to the Fot7 and yet the Wyls claim to be followers of the Fot7. So...???

And I don't want to say that civilians are fair game in Dorne but...the Dornish regularly employed protected civilian classes (women, children, elderly, handicapped, mentally ill) as unarmored soldiers in battles and sieges...and peace talks. Therefore, is there really such a thing as a civilian in the First Dornish War?

I don't know if you're American or not but some of the most beloved American generals and presidents have done just as bad if not worse than the Targaryens. Yes, I'm talking about WWII's Eisenhower, Patton and Truman but I'm also talking about Barack Obama.

And by worse than the Targaryens, I'm talking about maiming and torturing prisoners in dark, underground hovels. Which, as it were, is the same sort of thing that the Dornish were doing.

The fact that Wyl Widowlover and his small Dornish army were able to get so far into the Reach unmolested (Old Oak is not only close to the Summer Sea but it's very close to the Westerlands) is both horrifying and astonishing...and says a lot about the worthiness and readiness of the Tyrells as Lords Paramount. Frankly, I would have punished the Tyrells. An army of hostile Dornishmen being able to march past the heartland of the Reach and get within spitting distance of the Westerlands is like wildlings making it just south of the Barrowlands. Warden of the South, my ass.

The Tyrells and Orys wanted to harm prisoners, Aegon kept a moral dignity despite the war crimes. Dornishmen considered the knights captured as toys for their mutilation games, it is probably they had a worse treatment than Theon in Dreadfort, the accounts say horrifically mutilated, maybe they used slow slicing, that is slowest method to torture people. Then there are other crimes as mass rape, mass murder and the slave trade. People in the community are biased because they are fans of some houses

Edited June 27, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[KingAerys_II]

Another stupid plan is the Morion Martell plan to invade the Stormlands 

[Craving Peaches]

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

all of Dornish society is culpable because rather than surrender with honor and/or ask for terms when outnumbered/outgunned like every other region in Westeros (excluding the Free Folk beyond the Wall), the Dornish chose to resort to acts of unmitigated depravity.

But what were those peasants supposed to do? It is Meria Martell who decides that, not them. And you can't really say that 'The Dornish' chose to resort to X. A portion of them did. Clearly not all. There no indication the people in those villages even knew what was going on. Now I guess individual villages could have chosen to surrender in defiance of their lord's wishes but why should they? Firstly that is asking them to go against the feudal structure that has been in place for thousands of years, secondly why should they surrender if their freedom means more to them than their lives? I feel like that is asking them to surrender just because they are being inconvenient to the Targaryens. The Targaryens were the aggressors in the first place as well.

I understand punishing everyone involved with the Dornish atrocities. I do not understand how it is not morally wrong to burn those villages because there is no proof they were involved in any of them, outside of maybe a few members being part of the army when it committed those acts. Saying it is not morally wrong to burn them is, to my mind, like saying it would not be morally wrong for Edward I or whoever to burn a load of Scottish villages. 

Things such as the 'Harrowing of the North' were considered bad by mediaeval chroniclers.

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I don't know if you're American or not

I'm not.

2 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

People in the community are biased because they are fans of some houses

I'm not a fan of any Dornish House. I don't like most of them. I like more of the Houses on the Targaryen side. I just don't think those villagers deserved to be burned alive. It is a bit silly to claim people are biased just because they disagree with you. Who I am biased in favour of? I don't like Dorne or the Targaryens.

55 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Another stupid plan is the Morion Martell plan to invade the Stormlands 

Morion Martell = Moron Martell.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[astarkchoice]

7 hours ago, Groo said:

Petyr Baelish challenging Brandon Stark to a duel for Catelyn's hand. Even if he won, Hoster wouldn't have agreed to it. Catelyn didn't agree to it and clearly rejected him. There was no possibility of a win here.

Brandon had been granted her hand by accepting a duel for her as  a gentleman hed be obliged (should he lose AND  survive) to ask the father to give her hand to the 'better man' .....not that it was ever ever  gonna happen for a non martial skinny runt vs an absolute beast who lived for swordplay!!!

[KingAerys_II]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

But what were those peasants supposed to do? It is Meria Martell who decides that, not them. And you can't really say that 'The Dornish' chose to resort to X. A portion of them did. Clearly not all. There no indication the people in those villages even knew what was going on. Now I guess individual villages could have chosen to surrender in defiance of their lord's wishes but why should they? Firstly that is asking them to go against the feudal structure that has been in place for thousands of years, secondly why should they surrender if their freedom means more to them than their lives? I feel like that is asking them to surrender just because they are being inconvenient to the Targaryens. The Targaryens were the aggressors in the first place as well.

I understand punishing everyone involved with the Dornish atrocities. I do not understand how it is not morally wrong to burn those villages because there is no proof they were involved in any of them, outside of maybe a few members being part of the army when it committed those acts. Saying it is not morally wrong to burn them is, to my mind, like saying it would not be morally wrong for Edward I or whoever to burn a load of Scottish villages. 

Things such as the 'Harrowing of the North' were considered bad by mediaeval chroniclers.

I'm not.

I'm not a fan of any Dornish House. I don't like most of them. I like more of the Houses on the Targaryen side. I just don't think those villagers deserved to be burned alive. It is a bit silly to claim people are biased just because they disagree with you. Who I am biased in favour of? I don't like Dorne or the Targaryens.

Morion Martell = Moron Martell.

It is useless to discuss more, you don't want to understand

[KingAerys_II]

I think every plan of the kings beyond the wall is crap. 

Morion Martell plan. 

The first phase of the first dornish war is dumb strategy, when Aegon and Rhaenys claimed victory at Sunspear

Plan of Arianne to crown Myrcella 

The plan of Ned 

 

[Craving Peaches]

11 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

It is useless to discuss more

Clearly, because all you do is call me biased or not sane for disagreeing with you. Goodbye.

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

I think every plan of the kings beyond the wall is crap. 

Morion Martell plan. 

The first phase of the first dornish war is dumb strategy, when Aegon and Rhaenys claimed victory at Sunspear

Plan of Arianne to crown Myrcella 

The plan of Ned 

 

The king beyond the wall is lile a.hilarious running joke. They battle and scrape to put together a force only to be broken by the watch or the watch.+ starks and maybe umbers or karstarks ...and the hilarious part is they think thats it, once you beat them ts plain sailing going south !!  They have 0 idea the forces the rest of the north let alone the 7 kingdoms.can bring agaisnt them

 

In fact it almost seems unfair they havent got to meet the bolton flaying knives  , crannogment posions orthe full strength winterfell can bring   when its not in a rush!

Edited June 27, 2023 by astarkchoice

[BlackLightning]

7 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

People in the community are biased because they are fans of some houses

Pushing back against this

It's not about bias and @Craving Peaches is not wrong. The Dornish (much like the Scottish, the Ethiopians, ) were proto-patriotic in that they cared more about the integrity and freedom of their nation and culture than they cared about personal honor and security. And the Targaryens, after all, started it...

 

[KingAerys_II]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

Pushing back against this

It's not about bias and @Craving Peaches is not wrong. The Dornish (much like the Scottish, the Ethiopians, ) were proto-patriotic in that they cared more about the integrity and freedom of their nation and culture than they cared about personal honor and security. And the Targaryens, after all, started it...

 

It is wrong to say that Aegon was bad and the Martells were right. The war doesn't justify the horrific mutilation the prisoners of war suffered, the slave trade or mass rape. The Martells made an alliance with the pirates on the Steps tones and those pirates sacked cities, sack means slaves to sell to Essos. The Martells didn't punish the behavior of their vassals in the end, instead Aegon prevented the torture of prisoners of the war and kept a moral dignity. If Dorne didn't respect any law during war, why is burning people with dragons a war crime? And about the mutilations, it is impossible the smallfolk didn't know about the mutilations, it is probably those houses exposed the mutilated corpses as dread propaganda, those people including the lowborn are evil, people around Hellholt know that Ullers burn people alive and it's what they did to the Tyrell army that disappeared. 

[Craving Peaches]

Quote

It is wrong to say that Aegon was bad and the Martells were right.

I am not saying this. I am saying both were in the wrong. Why is it so hard to understand this? I will put it as simply as I can:

• Dornish nobles bad for carrying out atrocities.
• Targaryens also bad for carrying out atrocities.

I though it was a pretty simple point. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Maegor_the_Cool]

36 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I am not saying this. I am saying both were in the wrong. Why is it so hard to understand this? I will put it as simply as I can:

• Dornish nobles bad for carrying out atrocities.
• Targaryens also bad for carrying out atrocities.

I though it was a pretty simple point. Two wrongs don't make a right.

It all started by the wrong of a Targ invasion. The Targaryens were the aggressors. 

[KingAerys_II]

The smallfolk follows the order of their lords, so they do the things their lords order to do, atrocities too. Meria Martell had not intentions to do peace, she didn't care, she believed to win the war by sending assassins to kill Aegon and Visenya, Martells tortured Rhaenys, that is evident, after Meraxes fall they knew how to enter in the Aegonfort and to attack the king when he was alone without his guards. The houses that encourage slavery, rape and torture deserve to be wiped out, meanwhile the Targaryens kept a moral dignity, there are not accounts of torture of prisoners, despite the will of Reach and Stormlands lords to do so and the king accepted the peace, even though his wife was so mutilated that needed the gift of mercy. This why I think you are biased, you can say you don't like dragons or you hate the Targaryens, but it is evident Dornishmen were the bad ones in this war

[KingAerys_II]

Targaryens have dragons as weapons and they use them, that's it. The argument "Targaryen committed war crimes" is stupid, because Dorne enslaved, raped and tortured and those actions are worse than simply burning people with dragons

Edited June 27, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[Craving Peaches]

48 minutes ago, Jon Snowfyre said:

It all started by the wrong of a Targ invasion. The Targaryens were the aggressors. 

I agree. Whole thing could have been avoided if the Targaryens did not have such lust for power in the first place. Not that that makes the horrible things the Dornish did justified, since the people of Fawnton and Old Oak did not have a say either in Dorne being invaded. But that doesn't mean what the Targaryens did is okay either. In terms of trying to assassinate Aegon and Visenya though, so what? Meria warned them not to go to Dorne. Fair game to try and kill those tyrants. Fair game to also kill Meraxes and Rhaenys. They were invaders trying to subjugate Dorne, what did Aegon expect? If they tortured her for ages after though I might consider it a bit much but there is not much to suggest what they did.

[KingAerys_II]

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I agree. Whole thing could have been avoided if the Targaryens did not have such lust for power in the first place. Not that that makes the horrible things the Dornish did justified, since the people of Fawnton and Old Oak did not have a say either in Dorne being invaded. But that doesn't mean what the Targaryens did is okay either. In terms of trying to assassinate Aegon and Visenya though, so what? Meria warned them not to go to Dorne. Fair game to try and kill those tyrants. Fair game to also kill Meraxes and Rhaenys. They were invaders trying to subjugate Dorne, what did Aegon expect? If they tortured her for ages after though I might consider it a bit much but there is not much to suggest what they did.

So they were right to mutilate and to torture the knights and the Queen? It is like to justify the torture Ramsay did to Theon because he was an invader, are you sane? 

[Craving Peaches]

52 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

So they were right to mutilate and to torture the knights and the Queen?

No. Actually read what I wrote please.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Not that that makes the horrible things the Dornish did justified, since the people of Fawnton and Old Oak did not have a say either in Dorne being invaded.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

If they tortured her for ages after though I might consider it a bit much but there is not much to suggest what they did.

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Dornish nobles bad for carrying out atrocities.

Quote

the Dornish don't do themselves any favours by mutilating prisoners, killing people under a peace banner, raiding their neighbours and poisoning people, thereby proving negative stereotypes about their culture correct.

 

52 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

It is like to justify the torture Ramsay did to Theon because he was an invader, are you sane? 

You don't seem to understand what I've posted multiple times. I even tried to make it as simple as possible for you to comprehend. You either still don't understand or are just being wilfully ignorant. It is wrong for the Dornish nobles to mutilate, torture and kill innocents. These are atrocities. It is also wrong for the Targaryens to burn innocents alive. This is an atrocity too. Neither is right, neither is justified.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[KingAerys_II]

8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

No. Actually read what I wrote please.

 

You don't seem to understand what I've posted multiple times. I even tried to make it as simple as possible for you to comprehend. You either still don't understand or are just being wilfully ignorant. It is wrong for the Dornish nobles to mutilate, torture and kill innocents. These are atrocities. It is also wrong for the Targaryens to burn innocents alive. This is an atrocity too. Neither is right, neither is justified.

I think you are ignorant and you haven't read the book, or you have read without any comprehension that it's worse, your attempts to justify your senseless replies are lunatic and pathetic, I have already written a lot about the topic, I don't think I should waste time with a person that doesn't understand