NBA next- The Lebron-less playoffs?

[DanteGabriel]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

The Lakers were a failure this season, but the LeBron-AD combo did bring home a title. We're on year 3 of KD-Kyrie and they've won....one playoff series, and are regressing. 

He may have been talking about the 2004 superteam Lakers with Gary Payton and Karl Malone that got spanked 4-1 in the Finals by the Pistons. That was delicious.

[Maithanet]

7 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

He may have been talking about the 2004 superteam Lakers with Gary Payton and Karl Malone that got spanked 4-1 in the Finals by the Pistons. That was delicious.

I doubt he was talking about that team, and even if he was, losing in the Finals is hardly a shameful showing.  They beat a very good Spurs team to get there.  The Nets haven't done jack shit. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

19 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I doubt he was talking about that team, and even if he was, losing in the Finals is hardly a shameful showing.  They beat a very good Spurs team to get there.  The Nets haven't done jack shit. 

Revisiting that team, they had to deal with Kobe's rape trial, the complete collapse of Kobe and Shaq's relationship and the team was old and injured. Plus in the Finals Kobe shot the team out of any chance of competing.

It's also a good example of championship burnout. Most teams can't sustain more than a few years of success. It's why LeBron making eight straight Finals or Magic going to nine in twelve years is so impressive. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Harden and Kyrie are expected to opted out this offseason, seeking contracts around $50m AAV over four or five years. Who would you rather pay? 

[briantw]

18 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Harden and Kyrie are expected to opted out this offseason, seeking contracts around $50m AAV over four or five years. Who would you rather pay? 

Harden is just flat out a much better player than Kyrie.  

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

37 minutes ago, briantw said:

Harden is just flat out a much better player than Kyrie.  

He was, but James Harden as a top 5 player is over. Not sure either guy is top 10 at this point. And with Harden I’d be terrified to pay him that kind of money at that age when he has no history of taking care of his body.

[Maithanet]

Kyrie has never been a top 10 player.  He has had great teams/teammates his entire career (save his early years in CLE, when his teams were terrible).  He forced his way out of Cleveland because he couldn't deal with everybody saying (correctly) Lebron was why they won.  He couldn't hack it in Boston because he's too much of a basket case, but the team was clearly better when he was injured or after he left.  Then he goes to the Nets and is a constant PITA and in spite of having prime Kevin Durant with him, the team is going nowhere. 

Kyrie is a guy who has a couple of elite skills (namely his handle and finishing around the rim).  But that alone does not make a great player.  He is locker room poison and will never win another ring.  I was really hoping that when he started feuding with Harden that the Nets would just trade him.  Harden looks like he's on the downswing and is also a locker room problem, but he is a better player and a better fit than Kyrie was. 

[Relic]

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Harden and Kyrie are expected to opted out this offseason, seeking contracts around $50m AAV over four or five years. Who would you rather pay? 

Knowing the Knicks...both of them.

[Wilbur]

When considering Kyrie, remember what Larry Bird responded when asked to trade for some of LeBron's Cleveland teammates.

"I ain’t takin’ any of them f—— guys up there,” Bird was quoted as saying in Ian Thomsen’s book, The Soul of Basketball. “I said, ‘You don’t understand, son. Them guys playing with LeBron James look a whole lot better than what they really are.’”"

[briantw]

11 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

When considering Kyrie, remember what Larry Bird responded when asked to trade for some of LeBron's Cleveland teammates.

"I ain’t takin’ any of them f—— guys up there,” Bird was quoted as saying in Ian Thomsen’s book, The Soul of Basketball. “I said, ‘You don’t understand, son. Them guys playing with LeBron James look a whole lot better than what they really are.’”"

Eh…Kyrie has pretty much been the exact same player since he was drafted.  He’s gotten a bit more efficient offensively and he shoots more, but his rebounding and assist numbers have remained stagnant since his rookie year and he’s never bothered to give much of a shit defensively.   
 

He’s a star player, but he’s so far stuck up his own ass that he’ll never be a superstar.  You have to want to improve to be a superstar and Kyrie hasn’t really improved anything since coming into the league.  He was just so damn polished as a rookie and he’s pretty much been content to stay exactly that polished. 

[DireWolfSpirit]

At this point, with those contracts, taking on either (Kyrie or Harden) player is a net negative. Imo a team should require multiple 1sts along with the player in order to take either Kyrie or Harden in a trade. So I'd put their value as (-3) 1st rounders, right up there with the (-4) 1st rounders value of Westbrook or Simmons.

I'd rather gamble on Zion coming back than any of those albatrosses.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, briantw said:

He’s a star player, but he’s so far stuck up his own ass that he’ll never be a superstar.  

A lot of people think he is. I agree with Maith that he's never been a top 10 player and is never going to be, but some people have him in their top five. 

And as far as being a superstar goes, part of that is also related to fame, and he might be the most famous player after LeBron and Steph.

17 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

At this point, with those contracts, taking on either (Kyrie or Harden) player is a net negative. Imo a team should require multiple 1sts along with the player in order to take either Kyrie or Harden in a trade. So I'd put their value as (-3) 1st rounders, right up there with the (-4) 1st rounders value of Westbrook or Simmons.

I'd rather gamble on Zion coming back than any of those albatrosses.

They're going to be FAs this offseason if they choose to opt out.

[DMC]

I really don't understand why anyone would give Irving around $50 million for even one year.  Ignoring everything else, it simply doesn't match up with his abilities and production.

[briantw]

9 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

A lot of people think he is. I agree with Maith that he's never been a top 10 player and is never going to be, but some people have him in their top five. 

Anyone who has him in their top five is objectively wrong.  I think he's had stretches as a top twenty player, but I don't think he's ever crested top ten.

The only top five list he should be on is top five guys you want to take a buzzer beater.  Because while Kyrie conducts himself like an immature dipshit, he is pretty clutch.  I guess I'd accept top five handles in the league too.  Honestly, he's probably number one, or at least he was last time I watched him with any kind of regularity.

[BigFatCoward]

7 minutes ago, DMC said:

I really don't understand why anyone would give Irving around $50 million for even one year.  Ignoring everything else, it simply doesn't match up with his abilities and production.

I'd give him 35-40 based on ability then take about 10 off for having poison in the dressing room.  

Don't sign fuck ups in any sport. Its not complicated. 

[DireWolfSpirit]

Meanwhile there's a new article out this week suggesting Simmons didn't play in this post season because of "mental blocks"

I'm skeptical the back injury story is even the reason he refused to help his team or honor his contract.

"During Monday's meeting with the Brooklyn Nets, Ben Simmons told those in the room that a mental block exists for him to return to the court, which is also creating stress that could be a trigger point for his back issues.

Simmons indicated that the mental block, at least in part, dates back to the 2021 playoffs.

Simmons added that he does want to continue his basketball career and play for the Nets as he also works on solutions for his well-being."

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

I'd give him 35-40 based on ability

I was gonna say around 30 but double checking his numbers yeah I guess that's probably more accurate -- if you can count on him to stay on the court.

[Rhom]

56 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Meanwhile there's a new article out this week suggesting Simmons didn't play in this post season because of "mental blocks"

I'm skeptical the back injury story is even the reason he refused to help his team or honor his contract.

"During Monday's meeting with the Brooklyn Nets, Ben Simmons told those in the room that a mental block exists for him to return to the court, which is also creating stress that could be a trigger point for his back issues.

Simmons indicated that the mental block, at least in part, dates back to the 2021 playoffs.

Simmons added that he does want to continue his basketball career and play for the Nets as he also works on solutions for his well-being."

Its an interesting quandary in this era of increasing awareness of mental health.  At what point does he have a diagnosed disability... and at what point is he just soft?

Royce White was a really good basketball player.  But his anxiety was so severe that he couldn't get on planes to go to away games, and he only played something like three games.

Is that Simmons?  Or is he just a selfish prick who couldn't take criticism and has always avoided the challenge going back to choosing to play for Johnny Jones in college?

[Relic]

5 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Its an interesting quandary in this era of increasing awareness of mental health.  At what point does he have a diagnosed disability... and at what point is he just soft?

Yeah, its impossible to know. I'm going with either soft, or doesn't actually enjoy basketball, based on my own ideas on how i would act in a similar situation. It is, however, pure (biased) speculation. 

[DanteGabriel]

Simmons sure seems to enjoy all the benefits of being an NBA player. Acknowledging my own biased speculation, if I was really that anxious about it, I'd keep my head down.

It's interesting to see the differences in how the two organizations behaved with their injured players. The Celtics were pretty tight lipped about Rob Williams' return date, and people were pleasantly surprised that he came back in this series. The Nets kept teasing that Simmons was gonna come back any day now, and that just increased the pressure on him.