Jaxom 1974 Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 25 minutes ago, The Marquis de Leech said: The point is that retrospectively claiming works for a genre can be a dangerous exercise in anachronism. Shelley's Frankenstein is a Gothic Horror novel - it only gets lumped into science-fiction because a recognised genre of science-fiction arose many decades later (courtesy of H.G. Wells). Though I do not consider Lucian of Samosata to be science-fiction in any sense, since at no point is it actually engaging with science (either Aristotle or Lucretius). It's basically a second-century Gullivers Travels, a social satire with copious silliness, and the inclusion of Sun and Moon people is neither here nor there. (Another example of retrospective shoe-horning would be people who claim Voltaire's Zadig as a detective story, when the genre really got going with Poe). In the case of fantasy, I personally consider Morris in the 1890s to constitute the birth of the modern genre - MacDonald is arguably closer to dream-fiction than a setting in a "real" secondary world. By the time you hit Dunsany, you're dealing with invented pantheons of gods, and Tolkien found himself getting compared to E.R. Eddison. A fair point, to be sure. However, I do think there is enough material and story that pre-dates LOTR that fits the ideal of fantasy that it is possible to show a starting point for modern fantasy. As Wert points out, there were enough influences on Tolkien's work, that you could say, due to his success he may have revolutionized the genre of modern fantastic fiction, but he isn't it's creator. (For the record, I know Frankenstein is specifically Gothic horror, but I am of the belief that with that story, there is enough to not just lump it in with Science Fiction, but enough to state that it is a proper starting point for the genre. It is a case where retroactively attributing the tropes of the genre, one can only conclude that it all essentially began there. Verne just revolutionized the idea later.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 36 minutes ago, The Marquis de Leech said: The point is that retrospectively claiming works for a genre can be a dangerous exercise in anachronism. Shelley's Frankenstein is a Gothic Horror novel - it only gets lumped into science-fiction because a recognised genre of science-fiction arose many decades later (courtesy of H.G. Wells). Though I do not consider Lucian of Samosata to be science-fiction in any sense, since at no point is it actually engaging with science (either Aristotle or Lucretius). It's basically a second-century Gullivers Travels, a social satire with copious silliness, and the inclusion of Sun and Moon people is neither here nor there. (Another example of retrospective shoe-horning would be people who claim Voltaire's Zadig as a detective story, when the genre really got going with Poe). In the case of fantasy, I personally consider Morris in the 1890s to constitute the birth of the modern genre - MacDonald is arguably closer to dream-fiction than a setting in a "real" secondary world. By the time you hit Dunsany, you're dealing with invented pantheons of gods, and Tolkien found himself getting compared to E.R. Eddison. At the time, I don’t even think War of the Worlds was considered science fiction. It was one of the Invasion of Britain novels, hugely popular in the run up to WWI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 11 hours ago, SeanF said: At the time, I don’t even think War of the Worlds was considered science fiction. It was one of the Invasion of Britain novels, hugely popular in the run up to WWI. True, but Wells' other Big Guns: The Time Machine, The Island of Doctor Moreau, The Invisible Man, and The First Men in the Moon are recognisable science-fiction works. The War of the Worlds reinvented invasion fiction in such a way that it allowed the genre to exist in a modified form for decades to come. (And because this was Wells, it wasn't about Germanophobic xenophobia, but rather a vicious comment on the British Empire). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One-Winged Balrog Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 Is there a book in Science Fiction with the same outsize influence as LOTR had on Fantasy? My impression is there isn't, and Sci-Fi had a more smooth development. But maybe I'm missing something? This really calls for a quantitative research, but getting comprehensive sales figures across a century is probably impossible... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 1 hour ago, One-Winged Balrog said: Is there a book in Science Fiction with the same outsize influence as LOTR had on Fantasy? My impression is there isn't, and Sci-Fi had a more smooth development. But maybe I'm missing something? This really calls for a quantitative research, but getting comprehensive sales figures across a century is probably impossible... In terms of sales figures? Nothing in science-fiction approaches it (not even Dune). Literary influence is another matter, though I still don't think you find a Tolkien equivalent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One-Winged Balrog Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 I wonder if Tolkien's influence did more harm than good to the genre, by wrapping it around itself like a supermassive black hole. Regardless of LOTR literary qualities (which are exquisite, IMO), we now have an entire list of tropes that stem from one book. A whole category of fantasy is dedicated just to taking the "standard fantasy races" (what a concept!) of LOTR and subverting them. Surely it's a bit too much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 49 minutes ago, One-Winged Balrog said: I wonder if Tolkien's influence did more harm than good to the genre, by wrapping it around itself like a supermassive black hole. Regardless of LOTR literary qualities (which are exquisite, IMO), we now have an entire list of tropes that stem from one book. A whole category of fantasy is dedicated just to taking the "standard fantasy races" (what a concept!) of LOTR and subverting them. Surely it's a bit too much? I think that's a fair comment. The analogy I would give is how Vampire fiction wound up getting warped by Dracula. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 5 hours ago, One-Winged Balrog said: Is there a book in Science Fiction with the same outsize influence as LOTR had on Fantasy? My impression is there isn't, and Sci-Fi had a more smooth development. But maybe I'm missing something? This really calls for a quantitative research, but getting comprehensive sales figures across a century is probably impossible... War of the Worlds and The Time Machine both had a huge impact on the genre during its foundational phase, and almost every work of space opera can trace its lineage back to EE "Doc" Smith's Lensmen Saga. Most "hard SF" working on a timescale of millions or billions of years was developed in the shadow of Olaf Stapledon's First and Last Men and Star Maker. Anything about AI obviously tips its hat to Frankenstein. Probably the closest dominant series in the same way was The Foundation Trilogy by Isaac Asimov. However, Foundation never sold anything close to LotR's numbers (whilst still being a huge seller in SF terms). Amusingly when the Hugo Awards introduced a one-off category in 1966 to reward Tolkien for The Lord of the Rings, the purist SF clique was so outraged that they block-voted to ensure that the Foundation Trilogy won instead (and LotR actually came last, behind Barsoom, Heinlein's Future History and Lensmen). Ironically, 1966 was LotR's biggest-ever breakout year (apart maybe from 2001/02) in terms of sales, so if the award had been held just a year later, Tolkien may have won. But Foundation for years had a similar respect and reverence in SF comparable to LotR in fantasy. It was mostly undone by competition (from the Dune saga, mostly, which Asimov purists sneeringly decried was ripping off Foundation, but Herbert fans pointed out was much better-written) and also by Asimov revisiting the setting for decidedly iffy sequels in the 1980s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 27 minutes ago, Werthead said: War of the Worlds and The Time Machine both had a huge impact on the genre during its foundational phase, and almost every work of space opera can trace its lineage back to EE "Doc" Smith's Lensmen Saga. Most "hard SF" working on a timescale of millions or billions of years was developed in the shadow of Olaf Stapledon's First and Last Men and Star Maker. Anything about AI obviously tips its hat to Frankenstein. Probably the closest dominant series in the same way was The Foundation Trilogy by Isaac Asimov. However, Foundation never sold anything close to LotR's numbers (whilst still being a huge seller in SF terms). Amusingly when the Hugo Awards introduced a one-off category in 1966 to reward Tolkien for The Lord of the Rings, the purist SF clique was so outraged that they block-voted to ensure that the Foundation Trilogy won instead (and LotR actually came last, behind Barsoom, Heinlein's Future History and Lensmen). Ironically, 1966 was LotR's biggest-ever breakout year (apart maybe from 2001/02) in terms of sales, so if the award had been held just a year later, Tolkien may have won. But Foundation for years had a similar respect and reverence in SF comparable to LotR in fantasy. It was mostly undone by competition (from the Dune saga, mostly, which Asimov purists sneeringly decried was ripping off Foundation, but Herbert fans pointed out was much better-written) and also by Asimov revisiting the setting for decidedly iffy sequels in the 1980s. Frank Herbert was a thousand times the writer Issac Asimov was and he didn’t pinch women’s asses in elevators like Asimov did… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 59 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Frank Herbert was a thousand times the writer Issac Asimov was and he didn’t pinch women’s asses in elevators like Asimov did… Creative people very often are profoundly screwed up. I actually prefer the ideas of Foundation over Dune, though I'll admit that Herbert was the better writer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One-Winged Balrog Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 4 minutes ago, The Marquis de Leech said: Creative people very often are profoundly screwed up. Can we actually support this statement? A lot of people are screwed up, and some of them are creative, but I don't think there's a correlation. I think it's just a cliché. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 The thing about SF is that for whatever reason the really dominant pieces tend to be on screen, rather than written (but, obviously, then come back to influence the written genre too). Star Trek and Star Wars may not have invented space opera in the same way as LotR can be credited with epic fantasy as we know it, but they certainly codified and popularised many of the tropes and are just as a big presence on the scene. 2001 the movie is a titan in a way that the book, as good and as important as it is, just wasn't. Blade Runner might not be strictly cyberpunk itself, but I doubt cyberpunk would look as it does without it- and while Neuromancer and Snow Crash are foundational texts for the genre proper, it's the Matrix (via Ghost in the Shell) that punted the genre into true public consciousness. I would say Star Wars is the most obvious genre-distorting, pop-culture dominating comparison to LotR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoffa Posted July 21, 2022 Author Share Posted July 21, 2022 On 7/19/2022 at 10:31 AM, One-Winged Balrog said: Wait, are you serious? I find it hard to believe that someone could dislike LOTR and like Silmarillion. I'm serious. And i didn't really dislike it, just thought some parts were a bit tedious. I love lore and world building so The Silmarillion was more my cup of tea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 2 hours ago, polishgenius said: The thing about SF is that for whatever reason the really dominant pieces tend to be on screen, rather than written (but, obviously, then come back to influence the written genre too). Star Trek and Star Wars may not have invented space opera in the same way as LotR can be credited with epic fantasy as we know it, but they certainly codified and popularised many of the tropes and are just as a big presence on the scene. 2001 the movie is a titan in a way that the book, as good and as important as it is, just wasn't. Blade Runner might not be strictly cyberpunk itself, but I doubt cyberpunk would look as it does without it- and while Neuromancer and Snow Crash are foundational texts for the genre proper, it's the Matrix (via Ghost in the Shell) that punted the genre into true public consciousness. I would say Star Wars is the most obvious genre-distorting, pop-culture dominating comparison to LotR. Yeah stuff like Star Trek has some unusual reach back into genre fiction- pretty sure Patrick O'Brian based Maturin and Aubrey partly in Bones/Spock and Kirk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 Been a while since I read LOTR. Overall I did enjoy, with a few exceptions here and there, namely Tom Bombadil. I found him such a waste of space. Otherwise, I found Tolkien's anticipation of Ty and DMC (Pippin and Merry for those who haven't read the books) to be a bit bothersome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TormundsWoman Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 10 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Frank Herbert was a thousand times the writer Issac Asimov was and he didn’t pinch women’s asses in elevators like Asimov did… Oh wow, that’s something I’ve never heard of when people are generally comparing these two writers Of course, maybe I’m reading all the wrong comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoffa Posted July 22, 2022 Author Share Posted July 22, 2022 7 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said: Been a while since I read LOTR. Overall I did enjoy, with a few exceptions here and there, namely Tom Bombadil. I found him such a waste of space. Otherwise, I found Tolkien's anticipation of Ty and DMC (Pippin and Merry for those who haven't read the books) to be a bit bothersome. Really? I liked Tom! Loved the mystic he brought. Was a nice relief from the serious tone and the unnecessary nature description. Who is he? Eru? Or Tolkien himself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted July 22, 2022 Share Posted July 22, 2022 41 minutes ago, Hoffa said: Really? I liked Tom! Loved the mystic he brought. Was a nice relief from the serious tone and the unnecessary nature description. Who is he? Eru? Or Tolkien himself? I think he was sort of the embodied spirit of Arda itself… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted July 22, 2022 Share Posted July 22, 2022 3 hours ago, Hoffa said: Really? I liked Tom! Loved the mystic he brought. Was a nice relief from the serious tone and the unnecessary nature description. Who is he? Eru? Or Tolkien himself? Tom is very much a marmite character. People either love him or think his inclusion a waste of space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 On 7/22/2022 at 2:53 AM, SeanF said: Tom is very much a marmite character. People either love him or think his inclusion a waste of space. This discussion of Bombadil makes me wonder if Amazon might use Bombadil in… unusual ways… since they feel so free with the story. Why not a “Punisher” style Bombadil story set in the future of some distant age. The tag line could be “Bombadil… when you push Arda… Arda pushes back…” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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