Jump to content

The morality of war - Man's inhumanity to man


Which Tyler
 Share

Recommended Posts

6 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

In terms of the people, aside from guns, racism and the weird phobia about socialism/pursuit of money, you are among my favourites.

I'm honestly not sure if this a compliment or insult, but either way it's exactly what I'm talking about.  THIS is bigotry.  Guns, racism, socialism...If you wanna talk about all that, k.  But your invective here had nothing to do with that.  It was on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.  The American public didn't even elect Dubya until 2004.  That was an institutional problem. 

And, btw, if you think the people of Toronto wouldn't totally be in favor of bombing the shit out of the people that destroyed the CN Tower - killing a couple thousand fellow citizens in the process - you're even more naive than I thought.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

...There are 2 wars Canada entered before America…WWS I and II...

More later, but anyways, do you think global opinion of US foreign policy/actions is closer to yours or mine. Do you think the world views Canada or America more favourably, and why?

James Arryn -- Canadia has engaged in many, many (many) more than two wars -- before (e.g., French Revolutionary Wars and the War of 1812) and after (e.g., Korea and Vietnam (unofficially, but by the tens of thousands)) America gained independence.

On global opinion (excepting Hollywood portrayals and your various surveys), politically the US is still viewed in higher esteem compared with Canadia when measuring soft power (i.e., in shaping the preferences of others through appeal and attraction) the majority of the time. Anecdotally, too, as evidenced by your own experiences. One reason for this is that the US is most often the most charitable country in the world (Canada ranked 6, overall).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, DMC said:

I'm honestly not sure if this a compliment or insult, but either way it's exactly what I'm talking about.  THIS is bigotry.  Guns, racism, socialism...If you wanna talk about all that, k.  But your invective here had nothing to do with that.  It was on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.  The American public didn't even elect Dubya until 2004.  That was an institutional problem. 

And, btw, if you think the people of Toronto wouldn't totally be in favor of bombing the shit out of the people that destroyed the CN Tower - killing a couple thousand fellow citizens in the process - you're even more naive than I thought.

We’re waiting for the babies to potty so we can leave, so:

First, it was a qualified but sincere compliment.

Second, what invective?

Third, they re-elected him after a series of known atrocities. I don’t hold electing him in the first place against them one bit. But re-electing a guy who started an illegal war based on known bullshit that cost countless innocent lives, approved of torture and secret illegal prisons and unlawful kidnapping, etc. yes, that I very much hold against the American people. The fact that Kerry was boring being the most common excuse given kinda cements that in my mind. 
 

And Fourth, possibly, though we aren’t actually all that fond of it. But I’ll bet you a lot of anything that they wouldn’t want to bomb the shit out of tens of thousands of people who had nothing to do with it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, James Arryn said:

And Fourth, possibly, though we aren’t actually all that fond of it. But I’ll bet you a lot of anything that they wouldn’t want to bomb the shit out of tens of thousands of people who had nothing to do with it. 

Which is what 48.3% of the American electorate voted against in 2004.  On a turnout of 57%.  Of an electorate that was enjoying a burgeoning economy at the time. 

Which is why your continued responsibility attribution to the entire American public instead of, ya know, the myriad institutional and environmental reasons that are involved is absurdly pompous and naive bigotry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Wade1865 said:

James Arryn -- Canadia has engaged in many, many (many) more than two wars -- before (e.g., French Revolutionary Wars and the War of 1812) and after (e.g., Korea and Vietnam (unofficially, but by the tens of thousands)) America gained independence.

On global opinion (excepting Hollywood portrayals and your various surveys), politically the US is still viewed in higher esteem compared with Canadia when measuring soft power (i.e., in shaping the preferences of others through appeal and attraction) the majority of the time. Anecdotally, too, as evidenced by your own experiences. One reason for this is that the US is most often the most charitable country in the world (Canada ranked 6, overall).

Canada’s participation in the war of 1812 was being invaded, though to be fair we weren’t even really a country until 1867. The fact that Canada ranks 6th despite having a reasonably healthy welfare state is impressive. I wouldn’t want to live in a country that depends on charity to pay for healthcare, etc. But there are so many lists…refugees accepted per capita is another I didn’t list. But what’s the esteem rubric? I linked the positive/negative feelings one, where we Canucks (undeservedly) rank tops.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, James Arryn said:

Canada’s participation in the war of 1812 was being invaded, though to be fair we weren’t even really a country until 1867. The fact that Canada ranks 6th despite having a reasonably healthy welfare state is impressive. I wouldn’t want to live in a country that depends on charity to pay for healthcare, etc. But there are so many lists…refugees accepted per capita is another I didn’t list. But what’s the esteem rubric? I linked the positive/negative feelings one, where we Canucks (undeservedly) rank tops.

James Arryn -- yes, the war of 1812 was just one of many, many (many) more than the two wars you claimed. Just clarifying the number of wars Canada was involved with -- I don't look down upon any of them (unlike you, I'm a nationalist jingo), except when your ancestors beat mine, hahahah.

6th is impressive on charitable givings, but it's just one aspect of Canadian soft power. When adding the other aspects you highlighted, they still fall short when measuring soft power, which took your (appeal and attraction) factors into account and packaged them into a holistic product. Yes, Canada punches above its weight, but global opinion (by virtue of overwhelming US social, economic, and political dominance), still favors the US (and that's in spite of US political hypocrisy).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, James Arryn said:

edit2: heading back to sleep to catch a few more Zzzs before what is predicted to be a very bumpy transatlantic flight (with 2 year old twins) so I’ll likely miss out on the possible circle-the-wagons pile on to come, but if so, do enjoy yourselves

Travel safely hope you have a great time and your twins are well behaved.
 

:) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, DMC said:

I'm fine with shitting on the "dumb American electorate" to an extent.  And in some ways it's true, of course, but anyone telling me Americans are significantly more stupid or jingoistic or even racist than your average demographic analogue in any other country has an INCREDIBLY naive perspective of both basic human nature and recent political history.  You're right though, I probably do give more latitude to those that actually live in the US -- because we're the ones that actually have to deal with it.  But, still, eventually it gets tiring to keep on reading such horseshit.

I seem to recall that the major news story immediately prior to the Russian invasion of Ukraine was Canadian Truckers holding the Canadian government hostage for weeks over their opposition to Canadian vaccine mandates.  We have plenty of those asshats in the US too.  But clearly… Canada has its share too.  :( 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For those old enough to remember 50 years ago today Canada and Canadians defeated the then considered mighty Soviet Union. In hockey, a game real men play. 

I don't  want to brag but I think this was the first crack in the Iron Curtain. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, DMC said:

Which is what 48.3% of the American electorate voted against in 2004.  On a turnout of 57%.  Of an electorate that was enjoying a burgeoning economy at the time. 

Which is why your continued responsibility attribution to the entire American public instead of, ya know, the myriad institutional and environmental reasons that are involved is absurdly pompous and naive bigotry.

 

IMO there's a difference between putting some onus on the American public and saying that everyone American is culpable, and it's weird to me that people are taking JA's statements so personally.  

I'm all against the collective punishment for the actions of a few, but the reason I pressed Ty on this "double standard" is that I've heard so many arguments that involve the US being a real democracy ("try saying that in China", etc).  If you really think we have more input into our government than other countries, then we do bear more responsibility for its actions (with obvious qualifiers like the 2000 election).  This reminds me of the "Defense of Intent" thread where people get so caught up in worrying that they are being personally blamed for something... No one is pointing fingers at individuals in a message board.  But yeah, if you believe (I don't) that we have more control over our foreign policy through voting than country x, yeah, obviously it's fair to put the electorate on the hook to some extent.  

It's not "absurdly pompous" or "naive bigotry" to put some responsibility for the actions of an ostensibly democratic nation on its electorate.  Even for Bush and co's actions, they did that with the approval of the opposition party.  

Personally, I don't think there's any way to change US foreign policy or the MIC by voting.  I don't think we are allowed to have those kind of candidates.  I think we could grow a little thicker skin when it comes to taking criticism of the US personally.  

Edited by Larry of the Lake
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Larry of the Lake said:

If you really think we have more input into our government than other countries, then we do bear more responsibility for its actions

I don't think we have more input into our government than other countries, I think we have the same input as other industrialized democracies -- or, if you want to put it, the western world.  In which case, there is complicity in such egregious tyranny for all of us.  And anyone arguing otherwise is kidding themselves.

But that's not even my point.  My point is the peoples of any state SHOULD NOT be blamed for their government's actions.  It's ridiculous.  Blame it on the regime.  Blame it on those that voted for them, if you really want.  But broad generalizations are toxic shit that is exactly the opposite of what we should be doing.  

And when you start to tell me that "the American people" - which is the language James Arryn used repeatedly - are responsible for all of that, you can go fuck yourself six ways to Sunday.  The American people aren't any worse than the Canadian people, or the Mexican people, or the European people, etc.  That is something I will never abide, and it's some rank shit that he brings into these discussions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, DMC said:

And when you start to tell me that "the American people" - which is the language James Arryn used repeatedly - are responsible for all of that, you can go fuck yourself six ways to Sunday.  The American people aren't any worse than the Canadian people, or the Mexican people, or the European people, etc.  That is something I will never abide, and it's some rank shit that he brings into these discussions.

I don't think that Americans are genetically predisposed to barbarity and cruelty, but it's in our culture. The differences between the US and other Western industrialized nations are pretty stark: guns, prisons, for-profit healthcare, inequality, etc.

I also think we as a Americans are sheltered from the hard realities a lot of the world experiences. We are the wealthiest, most protected, most culturally coddled people in history.

The casual cruelty of our culture and the insulating effect of our comfort and very effective self-glorifying propaganda can make us pretty ignorant and callous about the rest of the world. As an immigrant American from a country that has suffered from the warping and corrupting influence of American foreign policy, I think I've got some decent perspective on that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

I don't think that Americans are genetically predisposed to barbarity and cruelty, but it's in our culture. The differences between the US and other Western industrialized nations are pretty stark

These stark difference have nothing to do with attributing responsibility towards the entire American people for the atrocities in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc., is my point.  As I explicitly said to at the top of this page, if that's the type of argument -- or simply the difference in education, which is an incredibly obvious point, then let me know.

But that's demonstrably not the point of these threads and I unsurprisingly got no response on that.  For the umpteenth time, it's the shitting on the American people that I have a problem with.  Which, when you talk about all those cultural deficiencies, they're the victims of.  Again, such generalization is in/out group thinking that is not only corrosive to productive thought, but is the root of hatred.  Which is why it's so gross.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, DMC said:

These stark difference have nothing to do with attributing responsibility towards the entire American people for the atrocities in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc., is my point.  As I explicitly said to at the top of this page, if that's the type of argument -- or simply the difference in education, which is an incredibly obvious point, then let me know.

But that's demonstrably not the point of these threads and I unsurprisingly got no response on that.  For the umpteenth time, it's the shitting on the American people that I have a problem with.  Which, when you talk about all those cultural deficiencies, they're the victims of.  Again, such generalization is in/out group thinking that is not only corrosive to productive thought, but is the root of hatred.  Which is why it's so gross.

I get what you're saying, and I see how Americans are victims of their own culture to some extent, and I understand the danger in blaming a people for their government. I get it all on an intellectual level.

But it's hard to get past the last 20 years of avoidable epic fuckups.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

But it's hard to get past the last 20 years of avoidable epic fuckups.

Most people remember where they were during 9/11, but I also remember exactly where I was when news broke about the Iraq invasion.  I was watching my friends play in a bar I had no legal business being in.  The manager/owner interrupted their set to announce what happened, and the reaction was vehement.  ...For about 5 minutes, then everybody got high.

Anyway, I don't wanna get all righteous about it, but it's absurd having another privileged western dude tell me how shitty the American people are because Dubya invaded Iraq.  There are plenty of people in this world that can't or shouldn't get over it, but most people reading this aren't them.  It was a travesty, a war crime, we all know that. 

EVERYBODY agrees with that at this point.  And certainly nobody in this thread has any interest arguing it.  And that's been the case for, like, a decade.  And that's after everybody argued about Iraq on the internet for the previous decade.  So, please, give me a fucking break.  If you want to shit on America, get some goddamned new material.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

.For about 5 minutes, then everybody got high.

Right, but please don't hold these people accountable for the actions of their democratically elected leaders. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Relic said:

Right, but please don't hold these people accountable for the actions of their democratically elected leaders. 

Well, don't see what's wrong with them - as well as me, obviously - getting high.  It was like 9 PM IIRC.  What exactly do you propose we should have done at that point?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, DMC said:

Well, don't see what's wrong with them - as well as me, obviously - getting high.  It was like 9 PM IIRC.  What exactly do you propose we should have done at that point?

Vote.

/wink

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, DMC said:

Heh.  Fair point, but I couldn't even legally vote at the time.

Nah, I meant it as a joke. It's rather absurd to snipe at getting high as a reaction to predictable, absurd news that many voted and organized against (not you or I at the time, other than verbally). Even moreso absurd considering the many people who can't vote - underage, undocumented, etc. - that are also carefully tarred by the invective toward the "America people". Love for guns and god with hatred towards socialism doesn't describe the vast majority of people in the US.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...