Sansa is slowly killing Sweetrobin

[JoyfulJoy]

5 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I’ve already put my $.02 in here but her POV chapters make it quite clear that she’s fond of him but willing to do harmful things to him in the short term to protect LF and herself (since those go hand in hand for now). 
 

So she might do something that poisons him or or even kills him but it’s driven by self preservation vs any desire to kill the boy.

I don't have a problem with that, it was the other people saying that she would deliberately kill him for power, or because Harrold Hardyng told her to, and she was in love with him.

Edited March 18 by JoyfulJoy
Left out a letter.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

On 3/16/2024 at 4:25 PM, JoyfulJoy said:

God Dang, why is there so much people here thinking Sansa is gungho for killing Robert Arryn? Like yes she made mistakes especially as a child, but since when was that means she's going to kill a freaking child?

She's being heavily manipulated for what it's worth. Littlefinger talks about Sweetrobin's death as a foregone conclusion and Sansa will begin to as well. All of her plans and ambitions will become dependent upon the idea of a post Robin Vale (which we see happening already) and when his lingering gets in her way, she'll see removing him as hurrying the inevitable, perhaps even mercifully.  I doubt she'll be gung ho about it, and I do wonder whether or not she'll go through with it, but I think that it will be a choice that Littlefinger will make her face and he will be depending upon her doing her part.

[Universal Sword Donor]

5 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

It doesn't have to be intentional. LF and the maester have been chronically overprescribing him sweetsleep for a while now. They (or at least LF) may have led her to believe too much is good for the kid's epilepsy, and she still naively trusts him. She may innocently administer the final dose.

No her POV shows that she knows exactly what is happening w the sweet sleep. 

[Daeron the Daring]

On 3/17/2024 at 12:25 AM, JoyfulJoy said:

God Dang, why is there so much people here thinking Sansa is gungho for killing Robert Arryn? Like yes she made mistakes especially as a child, but since when was that means she's going to kill a freaking child?

At one point she becomes complicit, if she hadn't yet. Her future is clearly set out to turn on Littlefinger and stop being a puppet in his 'game'. Right now she's deepdiving into it. It's something that we expect to change, but yes, in a way, Robert is in the process of being poisoned/murdered. And if he's gonna cling onto his own life a bit too long, Petyr might have to take more effective measures.

I'd be lying if I didn't instantly feel how morally wrong Sansa's position in this is when I read the book. She's just a child as well, ofcourse.

[JoyfulJoy]

Okay it seems I need to qualify, I did not make things clear enough, so that's on me.

 I was not meaning anyone who thought that Sansa either directly or indirectly kill Sweetrobin, but rather a select group of people here, I think either some of them might be trolls, or even the "fan who really hates the starks and loves Dany" that I've read about.
 

"Sansa will poison the little lord.  Myranda looks suspicious of Sansa. She will suspect Sansa of murder.  It will lead to Sansa's trial for murdering Lord Robert Arryn. Sansa gets the moon door exit."

"The Sansa we know is a selfish girl who has delusions of her own grandeur.  Sweetrobin is a dead bird if Sansa ever got the notion to kill him to benefit herself."

"If or when Sansa kills Robin it will be because she chose to do it.  She will if she thinks it might bring Harry closer to her.  Harry is mean like Joffrey and that is what Sansa likes. "

"Sansa will do the bad.  It is only a matter of time before she murders Robin.  There is hope yet.  Somebody with honor can come along and protect Robin from Sansa."

 

There are others, but these are the ones I thought where the worst, and actually I was right about one of them  (the one who said Sansa likes Joffrey) being the Dany stan, I already suspected him as being either a troll (I mean Sansa likes people like Joffey? lol) or being the Dany stan.

 

 

Edited March 19 by JoyfulJoy
I found he is a man, it was the icon lol, also made sentence more clear

[House Cambodia]

8 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

No her POV shows that she knows exactly what is happening w the sweet sleep. 

I don't read those references that way. Sure, she's overmedicating him, but she's just following Littlefinger's suggestions. I don't think she truly understands how strong the stuff is.

Whilst her character arc is certainly leading her to a point where she will deem it justifiable to kill Littlefinger, I see nothing in her development so far that points to her murdering an innocent (if very annoying) child.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

I don't read those references that way. Sure, she's overmedicating him, but she's just following Littlefinger's suggestions. I don't think she truly understands how strong the stuff is.

Whilst her character arc is certainly leading her to a point where she will deem it justifiable to kill Littlefinger, I see nothing in her development so far that points to her murdering an innocent (if very annoying) child.

I think LF will put a lot of pressure on her, by arguing that :-

(a) her life is on the line, for so long as she’s not the Lady of the Vale.  Being wed to Harold, as Lord, will secure her future.

(b) The Vale’s armies can avenge the murder of Robb, Catelyn, and her people by destroying the Twins, and the Freys.

(c) Sweetrobin is a lackwit, who will never be able to rule the Vale.  “The lad’s death would be a mercy.”

(d) She’s already too deeply implicated in his schemes to back out, now, having lied to the Vale lords about her aunt’s death.

 

[House Cambodia]

16 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think LF will put a lot of pressure on her, by arguing that :-

(a) her life is on the line, for so long as she’s not the Lady of the Vale.  Being wed to Harold, as Lord, will secure her future.

(b) The Vale’s armies can avenge the murder of Robb, Catelyn, and her people by destroying the Twins, and the Freys.

(c) Sweetrobin is a lackwit, who will never be able to rule the Vale.  “The lad’s death would be a mercy.”

(d) She’s already too deeply implicated in his schemes to back out, now, having lied to the Vale lords about her aunt’s death.

 

I think LF is too smart and too subtle to sow these thoughts in her mind explicitly. It's enough for him to goad her into overdosing the kid on sweetsleep until it tips him over the edge and he dies. Then, retroactively, as Sansa/Alayne questions whether she was responsible and sinks into guilt, he will attempt to placate her by pointing out all these 'inadvertent' advantages whilst simultaneously gaslighting her into thinking maybe she did have deliberate murderous intentions.

Then, quite some time later, it will dawn on her that he was gaslighting her the whole time and turn on him.

[SeanF]

17 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

I think LF is too smart and too subtle to sow these thoughts in her mind explicitly. It's enough for him to goad her into overdosing the kid on sweetsleep until it tips him over the edge and he dies. Then, retroactively, as Sansa/Alayne questions whether she was responsible and sinks into guilt, he will attempt to placate her by pointing out all these 'inadvertent' advantages whilst simultaneously gaslighting her into thinking maybe she did have deliberate murderous intentions.

Then, quite some time later, it will dawn on her that he was gaslighting her the whole time and turn on him.

That makes sense.  As well as suggesting it’s well past time to offer “daddy” his reward.

[House Cambodia]

Just now, SeanF said:

That makes sense.  As well as suggesting it’s well past time to offer “daddy” his reward.

Ewww. But yeh, I think that'll be the main trigger that finally opens her eyes.

[Hippocras]

I have to say, i genuinely find the theory baseless. There is a single comment from a single maester (whose healing talents are undefined) inspiring all these ideas, and nowhere else is there any sign SR is dying, that Sansa is doing anything except winning his trust, or even that Littlefinger himself wants him dead. Sansa insisted SR take drugs to still his nerves so that he did not fall off of a cliff, or completely lose any chance of ever having authority with his bannermen. Oooh, what a murderess!

Yes, LF is planning for the possibility SR might die - but ANY power structure needs security in what comes afterwards. What LF tells Sansa is NOT his full scheme, or even a very close approximation of it. 

It is HARRY that his going to die. The betrothal is simply a façade to make it seem like Harry's death is not in Littelfinger's interest.

Meanwhile Littlefinger is planning for what comes after HARRY dies, whether of not SR lives. Because SR is in fact the perfect puppet and very useful to LF.

Edited March 19 by Hippocras

[Universal Sword Donor]

8 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

I don't read those references that way. Sure, she's overmedicating him, but she's just following Littlefinger's suggestions. I don't think she truly understands how strong the stuff is.

Whilst her character arc is certainly leading her to a point where she will deem it justifiable to kill Littlefinger, I see nothing in her development so far that points to her murdering an innocent (if very annoying) child.

The first time we see it introduced is by the maester to LF in front of her:

“Sweets. Cakes and pies, jams and jellies, honey on the comb. Perhaps a pinch of sweetsleep in his milk, have you tried that? Just a pinch, to calm him and stop his wretched shaking.”

    “A pinch?” The apple in the maester’s throat moved up and down as he swallowed. “One small pinch . . . perhaps, perhaps. Not too much, and not too often, yes, I might try . . .”

Then Colemon asks about the bleeding nose and shaking, repeats it doesn't leave the flesh, and asks again about the bleeding nose before saying he'll do it twice more. 

“It was too soon. My lady, you do not understand. As I’ve told the Lord Protector, a pinch of sweetsleep will prevent the shaking, but it does not leave the flesh, and in time . . .”

“I try, my lady, yet his fits grow ever more violent, and his blood is so thin I dare not leech him any more. Sweetsleep . . . you are certain he was not bleeding from the nose? Very well.” They paused at the foot of the stairs. “But this must be the last. For half a year, or longer.”

If her POV more or less ended at this point, I would be inclined to agree with you. However it doesn't. She self monologues about what was best for SR isn't what's best for the Lord of the Vale (also him). Then she explicitly says they have larger concerns than SR and all but tells Colemon he'll continue to dose sweet sleep as LF deems fit.

“You had best take that up with the Lord Protector.” She pushed through the door and crossed the yard. Colemon only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true. Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns.”

At this point she's been indirectly told it's poisonous, directly told it's poisonous, and pushed for additional doses against the insistence and advice of the "doctor." So again, she very well knows she's poisoning him but it's a lesser concern against the governance of the Vale, disabusing notions of rebellion, and somehow avoiding the headsman's axe via treason against the IT. One can debate how far she's willing to go to protect herself, but given her mimicking of and adherence to LF -- the man who watched her father be arrested and then alter beheaded because he turned down LF, the man who murdered Ser Dontos for aiding him -- and the fact she considers poisoning SR the lesser concern, she absolutely would poison him to save herself, maybe even LF.

Edited March 19 by Universal Sword Donor

[House Cambodia]

As far as Sansa knows, from Lysa and Littlefinger, Maester Colemon was the maester who failed to administer sufficient antidote to Jon Arryn, and was dismissed by the far more experienced Pycelle, whom LF and Lysa certainly praised highly as they covered for their crime. I'd say she's more inclined to trust LF than the maester if they contradict in their assessment of how much dosage is safe.

What's more, she only wanted to give the kid extra to stop him throwing himself down the mountain and making an ass of himself in front of his subjects - two extraordinary circumstances.

It is true to say her moral compass is starting to be skewed by LF's training, doubtless to the delight of LF, but it has a way to go at this point.  None of where we're currently at screams "I'm intentionally murdering a child" to me.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, House Cambodia said:

It is true to say her moral compass is starting to be skewed by LF's training, doubtless to the delight of LF, but it has a way to go at this point.  None of where we're currently at screams "I'm intentionally murdering a child" to me.

At this point I am going to have to ask if you've ready literally any significant part of what I've written in the thread. It doesn't appear to be the case.

[Hippocras]

10 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

At this point I am going to have to ask if you've ready literally any significant part of what I've written in the thread. It doesn't appear to be the case.

People can read points and be unconvinced. It happens.

The fact is, the is no evidence of harmful effects for the moment in SR. If SR was actually showing signs of harm and Sansa and LF both observed AND ignored the signs it would be one thing. But there is no sign of harm. Just a very concerned maester.

Did it occur to you that epileptic seizures are, in themselves, harmful? That people can actually die of the seizures? A medicine that calms down and even prevents seizures might be harmful over time as the maester says but doing nothing is also harmful both politically AND medically.

 

Opioids, microglia, and temporal lobe epilepsy - PMC (nih.gov)

Edited March 19 by Hippocras

[House Cambodia]

11 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

At this point I am going to have to ask if you've ready literally any significant part of what I've written in the thread. It doesn't appear to be the case.

Yes. It is as Hippocras says.

I'll sign off with this observation. The reason we have a divide between us is because GRRM is an absolute master of ambiguity. After 1.7 million words, we are still unsure who to support and who to condemn, or how much to empathise or criticise. As such, a careful reader would not fall into the trap of forming trenchant views.

[Hippocras]

3 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Yes. It is as Hippocras says.

I'll sign off with this observation. The reason we have a divide between us is because GRRM is an absolute master of ambiguity. After 1.7 million words, we are still unsure who to support and who to condemn, or how much to empathise or criticise. As such, a careful reader would not fall into the trap of forming trenchant views.

Indeed. Many possibilities and there is no point being married to any particular one.

I personally consider it probable that rather than trying to kill SR, Littlefinger is very much trying to protect him. First of all, he is a useful puppet if nothing else: Any adult Lord of the Vale means LF loses his position and influence. He does not want that.

But there is more than that. I genuinely believe that multiple hints suggest LF is Robert Arryn's father - INCLUDING LF's own childhood frailty. 

Some people take the fact that LF was the one to propose sweetsleep as an anti-convulsant in the first place (and that Coleman had barely even heard of such a use for it) as proof of intent to poison. But IMO it could just as easily be evidence SR has LF's genes, and that LF knowns sweetsleep can be used this way from his own personal experience.

Edited March 19 by Hippocras

[the trees have eyes]

On 3/19/2024 at 2:04 AM, JoyfulJoy said:

Okay it seems I need to qualify, I did not make things clear enough, so that's on me.

 I was not meaning anyone who thought that Sansa either directly or indirectly kill Sweetrobin, but rather a select group of people here, I think either some of them might be trolls, or even the "fan who really hates the starks and loves Dany" that I've read about.

This thread did actually start as a Stark hate thread (there are a number of posters who regularly start or join threads bashing Arya, Jon, Sansa, Bran and Cat and you'll notice who they are in time) but morphed into a pretty good discussion of where GRRM might be heading with the Alayne persona.

Sansa ONCE pushing for sweetsleep on the day they need to get Robert down the mountain (that day of all days) does not a cousin murderer make.  Indeed she spends a great deal of time at The Eyrie looking after him and pitying him.  I find it particularly surprising that people ignore that it's the same day that she advocates for a pinch of sweetsleep that she leads him across the narrow ice bridge at considerable risk to herself.  He fits immediately afterwards.  We can legitimately ask if he survives this without sweetsleep. Or whether she does.  It's a one-off measure in an extremely time critical situation - they have to get down the mountain right away or they'll be trapped; almost all of the servants and guards have already gone and the weather is closing in.

The reason it's a hot topic is Sansa's internal thoughts in her Alayne persona sometimes appear to be aligning with LF's worldview which opens up the possibility of her becoming LF's child rather than Cat & Ned's child.  The girl who responded to Cersei's advice to make the people fear her with the thought "I will make them love me instead" seems to me no more likely to heed LF's ruthless, manipulative, cynical and murderous advice than Cersei's.  But just like she played a part in Joffrey's Court in KL - "I don't have the traitor blood", "I'm a good girl" etc... - she's playing a part in The Vale as LF's daughter.  Unlike in KL where she could hope for Robb's victory or the promise of "Come to the godswood if you want to go home" she has no such hope in The Vale so her options seem even more limited.  It's this, I think, which leads the non-Stark-haters to believe she will be caught in LF's trap and become his pawn. 

I think Robert Arryn is just as likely to be the means by which the Sansa / Alayne dilemma and LF's hold over Sansa could be resolved as she decides once again to protect the innocent or helpless Robert (as with Dontos on Joffrey's birthday).  But GRRM has isolated her so effectively he'll have to write in some means for her to escape this bind (Bronze Yohn Royce (who almost recognised her), Lady Waynwood, or even a missing Blackfish returning to The Vale to seek support; plus the Lannister disintegration at KL and the Bolton collapse in The North making a good time for a Stark heir to re-emerge).  That of course puts her back in the position of people competing over her for her claim, the last thing she wants, but none of the characters have ever really had good choices.

[Daeron the Daring]

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I think Robert Arryn is just as likely to be the means by which the Sansa / Alayne dilemma and LF's hold over Sansa could be resolved as she decides once again to protect the innocent or helpless Robert (as with Dontos on Joffrey's birthday).

My personal belief is that Petyr will just play his cards well, and karma won't be coming for him after all. I think it'd be a very good moral for Sansa that you'll always have puch people surround you. 

I do believe Sansa will manage to break away from his net (unsurprisingly, not a wild take), eventually outgrowing him in political weight and wit, but there'll be no showdown, only quietly falling out of favor (and essentially trying to hold onto any influence he still has on her), regardless of what may happen to Robert Arryn. I'd be surprised if he died anytime soon, it's been told so many times it's due that it becomes less and less likely, but Sansa will be faced with Petyr's scheming nature regardless, she will realise her naive collaborativeness but seek no revenge, maybe in fear of blunder as well.

[JoyfulJoy]

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

(there are a number of posters who regularly start or join threads bashing Arya, Jon, Sansa, Bran and Cat and you'll notice who they are in time)

Actually I already noticed them lol, I spent time looking though their accounts because it's fun, sorry for not putting anything new into this thread when it was already finished, I was surpised and wanted to say something.