NBA - The upside down

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

 

[BigFatCoward]

23 minutes ago, DMC said:

Feel like it should be noted that there were about a dozen or so "Baby Shaqs" hyped up in the 10 to 15 years after he was drafted because they were similarly big and strong.  None of them approached Shaq's success because they were inferior athletes.

Or perhaps because they weren't as big and strong. 

Anyway I'm clearly in the minority, so we can move along. 

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Anyway I'm clearly in the minority, so we can move along. 

Fair enough but as others have noted I think you're vastly underestimating how much his mobility and agility in the post - and for a man that big and strong - contributed to his unique abilities.  And I don't see how you can say that's not athleticism.

[Rhom]

1 hour ago, Wilbur said:

Have a look at this short video of him playing against UK at the Maravich in college, and you can see a smooth free throw motion, reverse layups, leaners, good action to the basket from the elbow, and generally treating Jamal Mashburn like he was an underfed child.

I'm still grateful that he was tossed from the SEC tourney in '92.  That was the only way that UK team was going to win that thing. 

[baxus]

15 hours ago, DMC said:

And I don't see how you can say that's not athleticism.

Because he'd suck at swimming?

[BigFatCoward]

33 minutes ago, baxus said:

Because he'd suck at swimming?

And golf and cycling and football and track and field and tennis and pretty much any sport other than pure strength events, maybe combat sports, maybe rugby/NFL.

Tell me how someone can be considered athletic if they would suck at most sports on earth? 

[DMC]

1 hour ago, BigFatCoward said:

Tell me how someone can be considered athletic if they would suck at most sports on earth? 

Most athletes would "suck" - as in not be anywhere near professional quality - at most sports on earth.

[BigFatCoward]

24 minutes ago, DMC said:

Most athletes would "suck" - as in not be anywhere near professional quality - at most sports on earth.

I never said anything about professional quality, he would suck full stop.  Like really really really suck. 

If you put Westbrook for example (someone who i consider very athletic) against Shaq at 100 sports that they had equal access to growing, how many would Shaq win?  5-10 if he was lucky.   

 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, BigFatCoward said:

If you put Westbrook for example (someone who i consider very athletic) against Shaq at 100 sports that they had equal access to growing, how many would Shaq win?  5-10 if he was lucky.   

I mean, I guess?  But then how many of these 100 sports are more inclined to favor speed and quickness rather than size and strength?  You're acting like there's some objective evaluation of athleticism over the broad tableau of "sports" for every individual athlete.  That's simply impossible to discern.

[baxus]

2 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

I never said anything about professional quality, he would suck full stop.  Like really really really suck. 

Even if this was even relevant to the discussion regarding Shaq being athletic, what makes you think he would suck?

And even if we'd agree that he would suck, if we would judge sportspersons' level of athleticism on what they're not good at, not a single one would be judged athletic.

[BigFatCoward]

28 minutes ago, baxus said:

Even if this was even relevant to the discussion regarding Shaq being athletic, what makes you think he would suck?

And even if we'd agree that he would suck, if we would judge sportspersons' level of athleticism on what they're not good at, not a single one would be judged athletic.

He would suck because he is physically wrong for most sports. He is too tall and heavy and bulky and lacks agility and speed and flexibility. They are limitations of his physique. 

Hence he can't be considered 'athletic' because most athletic endeavours would be more difficult for him, not less, because of his body type.  

To your second point I've already covered this upthread. There are various/many measures of athleticism, Shaq would score poorly in most of them, but extremely highly in a few specific ones.  

Many many other (most if not all) sportsman would score higher across a wider range of the measures, though obviously a lot lower in the ones that Shaq is practically superhuman at. They are athletically rounded, he isn't.  

Look at it this way, if someone said to you 'pick a player for a sport to be on your team, but you don't know what that sport is', would you pick Shaq?  The chances of him being dogshit at that sport are insanely high. 

 

[DMC]

14 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Look at it this way, if someone said to you 'pick a player for a sport to be on your team, but you don't know what that sport is', would you pick Shaq?  The chances of him being dogshit at that sport are insanely high.

Yeah, the problem is this is an extremely dumb way to measure "athleticism."  "Most sports" are going to be biased against him because of his size.  But that doesn't change the fact he is/was undeniably athletic for someone his size - even compared to other professionals in his sport with similar size.

[baxus]

21 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

He would suck because he is physically wrong for most sports. He is too tall and heavy and bulky and lacks agility and speed and flexibility. They are limitations of his physique. 

Hence he can't be considered 'athletic' because most athletic endeavours would be more difficult for him, not less, because of his body type.  

To your second point I've already covered this upthread. There are various/many measures of athleticism, Shaq would score poorly in most of them, but extremely highly in a few specific ones.  

Many many other (most if not all) sportsman would score higher across a wider range of the measures, though obviously a lot lower in the ones that Shaq is practically superhuman at. They are athletically rounded, he isn't.  

Look at it this way, if someone said to you 'pick a player for a sport to be on your team, but you don't know what that sport is', would you pick Shaq?  The chances of him being dogshit at that sport are insanely high. 

So, what you are saying is basically "athleticism is ability to be good at any sport"? Are you aware that NO ONE without serious previous training and exposure to the sport in question would be good at, for example, gymnastics or ice hockey or who knows what else? Would that bring us to the conclusion that no one in the world is athletic?

If you choose to ignore obvious feats of athleticism that Shaq displayed on a regular basis because he'd suck at pole vaulting and such, feel free to do so just bear in mind that it is ridiculous.

[BigFatCoward]

8 minutes ago, baxus said:

So, what you are saying is basically "athleticism is ability to be good at any sport"? Are you aware that NO ONE without serious previous training and exposure to the sport in question would be good at, for example, gymnastics or ice hockey or who knows what else? Would that bring us to the conclusion that no one in the world is athletic?

If you choose to ignore obvious feats of athleticism that Shaq displayed on a regular basis because he'd suck at pole vaulting and such, feel free to do so just bear in mind that it is ridiculous.

Yeah. That's what I said, that was my position.  

It's not about someone being good at other sports. It's about people having the ability to be good at other sports. 

How many of the below measures of athleticism do you think Shaq scores well on?  I'd give him 2, does that sound like someone who is super 'athletic'?

1. Strength – the ability to create force
2. Speed – the ability to minimize the time cycle of a given movement
3. Power – the ability to create maximal force in minimal time
4. Mental Resilience – the ability to push yourself out of your comfort zone
5. Aerobic Capacity – the maximal amount of physiological work that an individual can do as measured by oxygen consumption
6. Anaerobic Capacity – the maximal work performed during maximum-intensity short term physical effort
7. Balance & Coordination – the ability to perform movements with precision and grace
8. Agility – the ability to be nimble on your feet and move quickly from one movement pattern to another
9. Stability – the ability to prevent movement in one part of the body while creating movement in another, thus protecting vulnerable areas
10. Mobility – flexibility in motion, the range of motion through muscles and joints

 

7 ft 1 300lb behemoths are not good at most sports. 

 

[BigFatCoward]

22 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah, the problem is this is an extremely dumb way to measure "athleticism."  "Most sports" are going to be biased against him because of his size.  But that doesn't change the fact he is/was undeniably athletic for someone his size - even compared to other professionals in his sport with similar size.

I'll give you athletic for his size. That's not what was being discussed though. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Again, we made a thread for this. Take it there.
 

 

[DMC]

8 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

I'll give you athletic for his size. That's not what was being discussed though. 

I mean, I think it is.  You were originally talking about Luka being much less athletic - compared to other players at his position.  On this I entirely agree.  Thing is, Shaq is not much less athletic compared to other players at his position.  And indeed, there are others mentioned by yourself that are -- and are/were quite successful regardless.  Jokic, obviously, also Yao Ming.  Shaq does not belong in that category once we control for size.  While he was certainly not as skilled as them, he was in the same league in terms of "athleticism" with his cohorts - Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing.

All of which, btw, would also "suck" at most sports because of their size.  Why?  Because their size makes them outliers that most sports - and the rules therein - don't cater to.  If 7 footers were significantly more within the normal distribution of height, then there'd be much more sports that cater to their advantages.  To be clear, this cuts both ways.  Muggsy Bogues would also suck at most sports.  But he's still a great athlete for his size.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Ant had a crazy game last night as the Wolves beat the Grizz at full strength despite KAT now being out for 4-6 weeks. 29 points, 5 assists, 5 steals and 3 blocks. Talk about a two way player. Ja's skinny ass couldn't do anything when he was on him.

[baxus]

54 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Yeah. That's what I said, that was my position.  

Ok, so you have a completely wrong definition of athleticism and that's it.

55 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

How many of the below measures of athleticism do you think Shaq scores well on?  I'd give him 2, does that sound like someone who is super 'athletic'?

1. Strength – the ability to create force
2. Speed – the ability to minimize the time cycle of a given movement
3. Power – the ability to create maximal force in minimal time
4. Mental Resilience – the ability to push yourself out of your comfort zone
5. Aerobic Capacity – the maximal amount of physiological work that an individual can do as measured by oxygen consumption
6. Anaerobic Capacity – the maximal work performed during maximum-intensity short term physical effort
7. Balance & Coordination – the ability to perform movements with precision and grace
8. Agility – the ability to be nimble on your feet and move quickly from one movement pattern to another
9. Stability – the ability to prevent movement in one part of the body while creating movement in another, thus protecting vulnerable areas
10. Mobility – flexibility in motion, the range of motion through muscles and joints

1. Strength - He dominates this one easily
2. Speed - He moved very quickly for most of his career, did coast to coast plays, ran the counters etc. 
3. Power - Dominates it
4. Mental Resilience - If you think that being one of the top players in the NBA for well over a decade, 4 times NBA champion, League MVP etc. and handling all the pressure that goes with it does not prove his Mental Resilience then I don't know what to say
5. Aerobic Capacity - You think he could've played around 80 matches on average per season (playoff matches included) for almost two decades without this one?
6. Anaerobic Capacity - He was very explosive in his play, with all the jumps
7. Balance & Coordination - Rebounding and blocking shots is a pretty good indicator of this, I'd imagine, and he was world class in that.
8. Agility - While he obviously couldn't even come close to some, he ranked pretty good for this size in this one, too.
9. Stability - If you can find a more stable player, I'm all ears.
10. Mobility - Once again, not top-level but very good for his size for most of his career

So, I'd say well over 2.

[Proudfeet]

Where do you draw the line for being athletic anyway? How much less athletic than, say, Morant can you be and still qualify? Or how much more athletic than Boban do you have to be to qualify?

Does Gobert count? Ayton? Embiid?