NBA - The upside down

[BigFatCoward]

26 minutes ago, Proudfeet said:

Well, it's hard to have a conversation on the MVP conversation if you don't name anyone. 

So you aren't aware of the best player on the best team should be MVP/players on losing teams can't be MVP narrative? 

And this conversation started as I didn't think AD would be I'm the discussion because his team stinks.  

Hell, even finals MVP has only been won once by someone on the losing team, you dont think statistically it's unlikely that 99% of best players were on the winning team? 

MVP criteria isn't clearly enough defined for me, but most other leagues just have 'best player' which is pretty easy to understand. I'm guessing it's partly because the best player is often the same person 10 years in a row and it would be boring as shit, by having some unspecified criteria it keeps it interesting. 

[Proudfeet]

5 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

So you aren't aware of the best player on the best team should be MVP/players on losing teams can't be MVP narrative? 

And this conversation started as I didn't think AD would be I'm the discussion because his team stinks.  

Hell, even finals MVP has only been won once by someone on the losing team, you dont think statistically it's unlikely that 99% of best players were on the winning team? 

MVP criteria isn't clearly enough defined for me, but most other leagues just have 'best player' which is pretty easy to understand. 

It's a pageant. It's not some objective measure of a defined standard. 

Jokic won the last two from Denver exceeding expectations because his team was supposed to be shit with all their injuries. Booker was in the conversation but it was between Jokic and Embiid. 

AD was injured/bad for half the games so far. If he keeps this up, he'll be in. And by some coincidence, the Lakers have been winning since he went on his run. Gee.

I do think it's odd that Iguodala and Kawhi got finals MVP mainly for slowing LeBron, but that's a different award, and while it shouldn't be 99% or even 90%, being the best player does have a direct correlation to winning so it's not a 50/50 thing either.

Yes, MVP criteria is not defined well, which is why I don't take it seriously. And also because it's hard to separate team from player and player from team. Think this is generally true across all team sports though. I'm not familiar with football, but putting the other players aside, can you explain why Ronaldo and Messi won the years they did and not vice versa? 

[DMC]

Yeah I'm kinda at a loss what this is referring to as well.  The NFL's MVP can rightly be criticized as just the Best QB award.  MLB's actually has had many players on shitty teams winning it throughout my lifetime - some of Bonds', A-Rod's, Trout.  With the NBA..I dunno, maybe?  My memory's pretty damn shitty, so frankly quite curious.

[DMC]

Like, Doncic is probably the frontrunner for the MVP right now.  And the Mavs are..one game better than AD's Lakers right now.  Plus Doncic HAS been the better player throughout the season thus far.  So...

The difference between "MVP" and "Player of the Year" is almost entirely nominal.  The voters make that determination, and there will always be some who bias towards players on successful teams and some who will not.  The title of the award doesn't really matter.

[BigFatCoward]

in the last 30 years the MVP has been on a 1 or 2 seed team about 90-95% of the time.  Westbrook was a huge outlier at 6.  

I just find it odd that Doncic, AD and Steph are probably 3 of the top 6 players in the league right now, and come the end of the season people wouldn't vote for them because their colleagues are not up to their standard.  Tatum probably wins (maybe Giannis) because they have better team mates. 

[Proudfeet]

1 hour ago, BigFatCoward said:

in the last 30 years the MVP has been on a 1 or 2 seed team about 90-95% of the time.  Westbrook was a huge outlier at 6.  

I just find it odd that Doncic, AD and Steph are probably 3 of the top 6 players in the league right now, and come the end of the season people wouldn't vote for them because their colleagues are not up to their standard.  Tatum probably wins (maybe Giannis) because they have better team mates. 

I don't know about the last 30 years, Jokic won the last two, and Westbrook was within the last ten. 

Just last year, Dallas and GS finished above Denver (all the way down to 10th league wide), but Steph and Doncic didn't win. Neither did Tatum, Giannis, Booker. And AD's last good games before this stretch were in the bubble.

Unless you think KD who was injured for much of the season deserved it over Jokic, I don't get your pessimism.

[Tywin et al.]

The award is meaningless. Shaq and Kobe are on most people's Top 10 all-time lists and they won the award once each. Nash won it twice.

[BigFatCoward]

50 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The award is meaningless. Shaq and Kobe are on most people's Top 10 all-time lists and they won the award once each. Nash won it twice.

The person who has the biggest difference between wins, and where they stand in the pantheon of greats would surely be Moses Malone?

[Tywin et al.]

2 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

The person who has the biggest difference between wins, and where they stand in the pantheon of greats would surely be Moses Malone?

Idk, it's difficult for me to say given I've seen so little of his actual game tape. 

[Wilbur]

3 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

The person who has the biggest difference between wins, and where they stand in the pantheon of greats would surely be Moses Malone?

This is the correct and orthodox Truth.  Moses made the difference for both Houston and the Sixers.

Fo' fi' fo'.

[DMC]

8 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Shaq and Kobe are on most people's Top 10 all-time lists and they won the award once each. Nash won it twice.

Well, BFC is certainly correct that the GOATs like Jordan and LeBron should have won way more MVPs but didn't because voters get sick of choosing the same person each year.  Shaq, too, was a victim of this - Kobe, not so much.  But that's kinda just human nature among the voters.

Anyway, I don't see why the above is necessarily a bad thing.  It's entirely possible Shaq or Kobe or anyone else can be a Top 10 all-timer (tcb I don't think Kobe is) and still not be the best player any given year.

[briantw]

On 12/2/2022 at 10:12 PM, DMC said:

Good loss for the Magic tonight at Cleveland. 

Man do I not miss tanking.

[Frey family reunion]

8 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

The person who has the biggest difference between wins, and where they stand in the pantheon of greats would surely be Moses Malone?

My favorite story about Moses Malone, is one that Charles Barkley told recently.  When Barkley was a rookie, he complained to Moses why he wasn’t getting more playing time.  Moses looked at him and without batting an eye said, it’s because you’re fat and lazy.  Barkley said that was the spark he needed to lose about thirty pounds, and that’s when his NBA career exploded.

[Tywin et al.]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Well, BFC is certainly correct that the GOATs like Jordan and LeBron should have won way more MVPs but didn't because voters get sick of choosing the same person each year.  Shaq, too, was a victim of this - Kobe, not so much.  But that's kinda just human nature among the voters.

Anyway, I don't see why the above is necessarily a bad thing.  It's entirely possible Shaq or Kobe or anyone else can be a Top 10 all-timer (tcb I don't think Kobe is) and still not be the best player any given year.

Idk, being a top 10 player should suggest you won more than one MVP which makes a few Shaq robberies offensive. 

And I don't have Kobe in my top 10, but a lot of people do and they get mad when you don't, lol/ 

[DMC]

15 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Idk, being a top 10 player should suggest you won more than one MVP which makes a few Shaq robberies offensive. 

I think they're two different measures, so again, not necessarily.  And context matters.  Take Hakeem.  I think he is a top 10 all-timer.  But throughout his career other (even higher ranked) top ten players - Jordan and Magic - dominated the award.  Even in years they didn't, other not-quite-top ten players won it:  Barkley, Robinson, Malone.  And for the most part, those players DID have better years than Hakeem in those years (plus one could argue Jordan should have won most of those too). 

So, I don't think Hakeem only having one MVP is "wrong," even though he still is in my Top 10.  I'd have to really go back and check to be sure, but the same thing pretty much applies to Oscar Robertson.

ETA:  To be clear, we're in agreement on Shaq.

[BigFatCoward]

I've only checked the scores and not watched, but it looks line Luka owns Booker's soul. 

[Calibandar]

Looks like he does.

On 12/3/2022 at 4:12 AM, DMC said:

Good loss for the Magic tonight at Cleveland.  Fultz and Anthony both played well in their second game back.  You can really see the makings of a solid 8 man rotation if they can get Carter and Suggs back and everyone else remains healthy.  That wouldn't include Isaac - nor Bamba, Ross, or Harris - the latter three are imminently tradeable at the deadline, potentially freeing up quite a bit of money for next year...

Orlando has also taken over the worst record in the league.  The Bulls are at 8th worst, which is pretty ideal for getting that pick and maximizing its value - they only have about a 26% chance to get a top 4 pick....

Its funny to see you as a devoted Magic fan try to take anything positive out of yet another awful Magic season

And I get it, personally I would really like to see OKC do poorly and yet they keep winning games against teams that they should be losing to, and right now have even played themselves out of a top 5 pick ( let alone Victor or Scoot) due to that. At least you are firmly in the running for that, which IMO is a lot more sensible than finishing 11th.

But there are so many " ifs"  when you try to look at a solid 8 man rotation. They pick up loss after loss after loss. If only Fultz would be fit and consistently good. If only Anthony would be consistent. If only Suggs would be. If only Isaac would play baketball. Andsoforth. Best hope really is to have a high pick and maybe then things start looking up.

On 12/5/2022 at 11:18 AM, BigFatCoward said:

 

I just find it odd that Doncic, AD and Steph are probably 3 of the top 6 players in the league right now, and come the end of the season people wouldn't vote for them because their colleagues are not up to their standard.  Tatum probably wins (maybe Giannis) because they have better team mates. 

But Doncic definitely in everybody's MVP conversation and Curry will be too. Davis is a bit more unclear but if he keeps it up and the Lakers win some games consistently, his case will be made as well.

There are so many great players out there right now which are potential MVP guys so you really gotta do special things to even finish in the top 5. Durant is quietly having a superb season with the Nets despite team results, and thats been from game 1 ( unlike Davis who's had what, 4-5 good games?). Tatum. Giannis. Booker. Morant. Jokic. Mitchell....

 

[DMC]

7 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

But there are so many " ifs"  when you try to look at a solid 8 man rotation. They pick up loss after loss after loss. If only Fultz would be fit and consistently good. If only Anthony would be consistent. If only Suggs would be. If only Isaac would play baketball. Andsoforth. Best hope really is to have a high pick and maybe then things start looking up.

Well, health is a huge if, sure.  But Banchero and Wagner are two clear building blocks wherein that's not much of a concern.  Carter too, even though he's injured right now.  Anthony is a solid backup point guard.  Even if he isn't consistent, he's certainly fine in that role.  Mo Wagner is just coming off injury, but historically his injury history is pretty standard for a big guy, nothing serious.  The injury concerns in the 8 man rotation I was referring to are obviously Fultz, Suggs, and Bol.  There's not many ifs with Fultz if he can stay on the court.  He's a solid lead guard that can't shoot threes.  My point obviously was "if all eight of these players are healthy at the same time" - but other than that, I was taking them as is in terms of how they're currently performing.

But yeah, what can I say, I really like rebuilding teams and always have.  Imagining the potential is really fun.  Especially when the upcoming draft is as promising as this one and the Magic may have two lottery picks (although the Bulls are starting to get way too bad for comfort).

Anyway, Jonathan Isaac was just assigned to start practicing with Orlando's G-League team.  At this rate he may be back by 2025.  

[Calibandar]

I suspect you will get the pick from the Bulls as well. They will not be bad enough for it to fall in the top 4 and they dont  want to tank it seems. Its also going to be hard to be that bad with a team that has LaVine and DeRozan on it, especially considering we already have 6 bad teams below them.

Possibly they might play themselves into a play-in though, and then that pick gets mediocre.

[DireWolfSpirit]

Brittney Griner Released By Russia To United States