Lost Melnibonean Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 The main reason I like Quaithe as Shiera is that would give us a manifestation of each of the four great bastards in the current story. Assuming Aegon descends from Daemon Blackfyre, we also have Bittersteel's legacy in the Golden Company, and Bloodraven as the three eyed crow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 On 2/9/2023 at 9:16 AM, John Suburbs said: I'm betting that she was Mel's mother, before she returned to Westeros as the spice merchant's wife who later became known as Maggy the Frog. That's how we get the same heart-shaped face for Shiera, Mel and . . . wait for it . . . Jeyne Westerling. Ah ha! This explains why Sybell is so mean to sweet pitiful Jeyne! Not even her daughter. Thanks Man, I feel better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 On 2/9/2023 at 7:46 PM, Evolett said: Now that's a good thought! Shiera is in the same league as other mysterious "missing" female characters who just seemed to drop out of the story with no further explanation: Rohanne Webber, Alys Rivers, and some Targaryen princesses such as Rhae as @Mourning Star points out, Night's Queen - what happened to her after the fall of Night's King is not revealed. The uniting factor is sorcery or allusions to the use of magic so there's definitely something going on there. I would add Nettles and Arya to the list. We do have an idea where Nettles might have ended up but as in Arya's case, in-world characters in Westeros are not aware of what became of them. I think the heart-face links between Shiera, Mel and Jeyne Westerling as well as the connection between the missing women are intentional and that at least some of these characters, if not all, serve to illuminate the back story of the Night's Queen. Agreed for the most part, but I would add that it is heavily hinted that the Night's Queen survived for centuries in the Nightfort as the thing that only comes in the night. there's the only in the night thing whoever saw it couldn't give a similar description -> glamoring apprentice boys Mel is a parallel to the night's queen (though some details are different, because "fire" instead of "ice"). It's hinted she uses a glamor for herself. And ever since her king left her behind at the Wall she has one apprentice boy with her, infatuated with her - the squire Devan. Gilly is another parallel: She approaches Jon north of the Wall in a frosted "enchanted" forest, asking him to take her with him She's smuggled south of the Wall, via the Nightfort, with a son (later referred to as 'monster') She departs from the Wall almost regal from the lichyard (corpse queen) We learn of the thing that only comes in the night while Bran is at the nightfort, prior to Sam and Gilly passing through. Then he hears the noises and he instantly think it's the thing that only comes in the night, and out comes Gilly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolett Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 1 hour ago, sweetsunray said: Agreed for the most part, but I would add that it is heavily hinted that the Night's Queen survived for centuries in the Nightfort as the thing that only comes in the night. there's the only in the night thing whoever saw it couldn't give a similar description -> glamoring apprentice boys I've read your new blogpost on this meanwhile. Very compelling. Mel and Gilly as NQs, definitely yes. There are a few more on my list, each showing different aspects of the story and how it got to that point and beyond. Have you considered Danelle Lothston for instance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 6 hours ago, Evolett said: I've read your new blogpost on this meanwhile. Very compelling. Mel and Gilly as NQs, definitely yes. There are a few more on my list, each showing different aspects of the story and how it got to that point and beyond. Have you considered Danelle Lothston for instance? Mad Danelle: Mad, feasting on human flesh in cooking pots and bathing in blood on moonless nights works fine. I consider her more of an echo to remind us or imprint on us the idea of "mad female eats children". We get way more with Mel and Gilly, because they are current characters with an arc and several corpse-queen staged scenes and chapters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 On 11/19/2022 at 8:10 AM, Shierak Qiya said: Didn't Mellisandre have a memory of being sold as a child? That's the standard interpretation. But the thought occurred to me that maybe that's just a vision she had while looking for Jon's sister in her flames. And the flames are showing her Jon's sister. It's not the most natural reading, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 Shiera Seastar bathes in blood to keep her beauty. But at 116+ years, there's only so much her black sorcery can achieve. We now know her as Varys. (I'm just brainstorming, guys. Try not to get too outraged). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 On 2/10/2023 at 6:54 PM, Curled Finger said: Ah ha! This explains why Sybell is so mean to sweet pitiful Jeyne! Not even her daughter. Thanks Man, I feel better. No Sybell is still Jeyne's mother. It started with Maggy the Frog who married the spicer (the first unusual marriage) and had a son who was ennobled by lord Tytos for some reason no one seems to recall. Then that son married someone who gave birth to Sybell, who then married Gawen Westerling (a bad marriage for him, but he had "more honor than sense"). Then Sybell had Jeyne, making her Maggy's great granddaughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 2 hours ago, John Suburbs said: No Sybell is still Jeyne's mother. It started with Maggy the Frog who married the spicer (the first unusual marriage) and had a son who was ennobled by lord Tytos for some reason no one seems to recall. Then that son married someone who gave birth to Sybell, who then married Gawen Westerling (a bad marriage for him, but he had "more honor than sense"). Then Sybell had Jeyne, making her Maggy's great granddaughter. Bloody Hell. Back to loathing Sybell all over again, still no good reason for her treatment of Jeyne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 2 hours ago, Curled Finger said: Bloody Hell. Back to loathing Sybell all over again, still no good reason for her treatment of Jeyne. Needs a kingsblood baby for blood sorcery = good reason to a blood sorceress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 7 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said: Needs a kingsblood baby for blood sorcery = good reason to a blood sorceress. Why are you certain Sheira or Maggy for that matter, are evil blood sorceresses? All though out the histories we see women vilified and made horrors they never were. Someone above mentioned Sheira bathed in blood, but that's not confirmed, only rumored. She was beautiful and an exotic beauty by tell of it with an interest in the occult. That doesn't make her any worse than my best friends in junior high. They didn't bathe in blood but they sure would have got a kick out of you thinking they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 58 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: Why are you certain Sheira or Maggy for that matter, are evil blood sorceresses? How can I be sure? If we have to be sure of things, we might as well end the thread. For now, we have a fair number of clues that Shiera was wicked and also that Shiera was a sorceress. And for me, that's how it stands, at least until she shows up in WINDS and we learn otherwise, or until Disney or whoever comes along and does a post-modern re-imagining of her back-story. 58 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: All though out the histories we see women vilified and made horrors they never were. I'm not sure which specific women you have in mind. But if you are suggesting we can't have wicked witches in fantasy novels, because of some ill-defined ideological crusade to Right the Wrongs of History, then count me out. 58 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: Someone above mentioned Sheira bathed in blood, but that's not confirmed, only rumored. Am I supposed to hold out for photographic evidence? It's a bit of old lore to add flavor to a medieval fantasy novel. 58 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: She was beautiful and an exotic beauty by tell of it with an interest in the occult. That doesn't make her any worse than my best friends in junior high. They didn't bathe in blood but they sure would have got a kick out of you thinking that they did. Can we leave your friends out of this? You are dragging far too much baggage into this conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 2 hours ago, Curled Finger said: Why are you certain Sheira or Maggy for that matter, are evil blood sorceresses? All though out the histories we see women vilified and made horrors they never were. Someone above mentioned Sheira bathed in blood, but that's not confirmed, only rumored. She was beautiful and an exotic beauty by tell of it with an interest in the occult. That doesn't make her any worse than my best friends in junior high. They didn't bathe in blood but they sure would have got a kick out of you thinking they did. Excellent points, CF! I have never bathed in blood - maybe something for the to-do list? And sounds like we had the same kind of friends in school, the best kind of friends I might add! I’d love to learn more about Shiera, and I think we will - at least a little bit. (And no, Shiera isn’t the 3EC - not addressed to you CF, just throwing it out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 14, 2023 Share Posted February 14, 2023 3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said: Excellent points, CF! I have never bathed in blood - maybe something for the to-do list? And sounds like we had the same kind of friends in school, the best kind of friends I might add! I’d love to learn more about Shiera, and I think we will - at least a little bit. (And no, Shiera isn’t the 3EC - not addressed to you CF, just throwing it out there. I just finished a documentary on Boudicca. Guess my dander is up on women in history. At least we can vote now. Thanks for the confidence! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 14, 2023 Share Posted February 14, 2023 4 hours ago, Gilbert Green said: How can I be sure? If we have to be sure of things, we might as well end the thread. For now, we have a fair number of clues that Shiera was wicked and also that Shiera was a sorceress. And for me, that's how it stands, at least until she shows up in WINDS and we learn otherwise, or until Disney or whoever comes along and does a post-modern re-imagining of her back-story. I'm not sure which specific women you have in mind. But if you are suggesting we can't have wicked witches in fantasy novels, because of some ill-defined ideological crusade to Right the Wrongs of History, then count me out. Am I supposed to hold out for photographic evidence? It's a bit of old lore to add flavor to a medieval fantasy novel. Can we leave your friends out of this? You are dragging far too much baggage into this conversation. I'm not even sure how to respond. At least you have a cool templar knight as an avatar. You can't be all bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted February 14, 2023 Share Posted February 14, 2023 20 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: I'm not even sure how to respond. At least you have a cool templar knight as an avatar. You can't be all bad. I just think Sierra might be an evil blood sorcerer, just as folks suppose. Not much point to her otherwise, as far as I know. And if she isn't using blood magic to increase her lifespan, she does not have much chance of still being alive, as she would likely be 120. Most blood magic seems to tend toward human sacrifice as its ultimate expression. This might end up being wrong, because in the end it is up to GRRM. But I don't think it depends on all the injustices of history. Nor do I think it depends on whether the very idea of an evil occultist is offensive to a few edgy high schoolers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 14, 2023 Share Posted February 14, 2023 1 minute ago, Gilbert Green said: I just think Sierra might be an evil blood sorcerer, just as folks suppose. Not much point to her otherwise, as far as I know. And if she isn't using blood magic to increase her lifespan, she does not have much chance of still being alive, as she would likely be 120. Most blood magic seems to tend toward human sacrifice as its ultimate expression. This might end up being wrong, because in the end it is up to GRRM. But I don't think it depends on all the injustices of history. Nor do I think it depends on whether the very idea of an evil occultist is offensive to a few edgy high schoolers. Fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gizzard of Oz Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 She is one of the suspects for the woman who is now Dany's friend, Quaithe of Asshai. I think Mellissandre is a different character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 On 2/13/2023 at 6:29 PM, kissdbyfire said: Excellent points, CF! I have never bathed in blood - maybe something for the to-do list? You'll need some young girls. It takes quite a few of them, I have heard, to supply enough blood to fill a bathtub. On 2/13/2023 at 6:29 PM, kissdbyfire said: And sounds like we had the same kind of friends in school, the best kind of friends I might add! Especially when you need a few extra victims for your bloody bathtub. On 2/13/2023 at 6:29 PM, kissdbyfire said: I’d love to learn more about Shiera, and I think we will - at least a little bit. I think it is likely he was intending to tell us more about her. Not sure if in the main series, or in the Dunk & Egg stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Just now, Gilbert Green said: You'll need some young girls. It takes quite a few of them, I have heard, to supply enough blood to fill a bathtub. If you're lazy you can always water it down. Though that effects the life-extending properties. Or so I've heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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