Stannis knows about Mance

[sweetsunray]

I would even go one further: Stannis always knew and agreed to switch Mance for Rattheshirt, because Mel never felt the need even to go behind Stannis' back to save Mance.

It's a plot point that is brought up regularly when people discuss Cantuse's Nightlamp theory as well as the authorship of the Pink Letter. There seems no outright confirmation that Stannis knows, and since he seemed so adamant about burning Mance and didn't like it when Jon had Rattleshirt-glamored-as-Mance shot as a mercy while he was burning, readers think it's almost against Stannis's character to have been on it.

However, the text and some things that Stannis, Mel and Mance-as-Rattleshirt say to Jon makes the most sense when we assume this swapping of Mance and Rattleshirt was a plan Mel and Stannis concocted together.

First there is the war meeting that Jon gets invited to:

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"Thank you, but no."

"As you wish. I have a gift for you, Lord Snow." The king waved a hand at Rattleshirt. "Him."

Lady Melisandre smiled. "You did say you wanted men, Lord Snow. I believe our Lord of Bones still qualifies." (aDwD, Jon IV)

In much of this chapter, Stannis is in a rather uplifted mood. He has a plan and had word from Karstarks that they will join their forces with his. Val, Gilly and Jon have all pleaded the prior chapters to save Mance's life, and Stannis seemingly did not, and somehow Stannis believes Rattleshirt is a "gift" for Jon? Stannis talked with Mance and he must have had some interactions with the Lord of Bones. The first is blunt but smart. The latter is a vile brute. It's harder to believe Stannis would think Rattleshirt worthy of being called a "gift" than Stannis recognizing Mance has value, but it may be more prudent to let the world believe he burned him.

Secondly Mel and Mance-as-Rattleshirt openly show the rubies and Mel openly tells Jon (and thus Stannis standing right there) that the ruby binds Mance to her blood and soul.

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Rattleshirt sat scratching at the manacle on his wrist with a cracked yellow fingernail. Brown stubble covered his sunken cheeks and receding chin, and strands of dirty hair hung across his eyes. "Here he comes," he said when he saw Jon, "the brave boy who slew Mance Rayder when he was caged and bound." The big square-cut gem that adorned his iron cuff glimmered redly. "Do you like my ruby, Snow? A token o' love from Lady Red."

Jon was aghast. "Your Grace, this man cannot be trusted. If I keep him here, someone will slit his throat for him. If I send him ranging, he'll just go back over to the wildlings."

"Not me. I'm done with those bloody fools." Rattleshirt tapped the ruby on his wrist. "Ask your red witch, bastard."

Melisandre spoke softly in a strange tongue. The ruby at her throat throbbed slowly, and Jon saw that the smaller stone on Rattleshirt's wrist was brightening and darkening as well. "So long as he wears the gem he is bound to me, blood and soul," the red priestess said. "This man will serve you faithfully. The flames do not lie, Lord Snow." (aDwD, Jon IV)

Guess who else wears a big square-cut ruby? Stannis himself.

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As he neared, she saw that Stannis wore a crown of red gold with points fashioned in the shape of flames. His belt was studded with garnets and yellow topaz, and a great square-cut ruby was set in the hilt of the sword he wore. (aCoK, Catelyn III)

That sword that Stannis carries is the glamored sword to fake it being Lightbringer. This is the first chapter in which Stannis reappears after Davos 1, when the 7 were burned and Stannis pulled out "Lightbringer".

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He ground his teeth. "We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must . . . we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty. Melisandre swears that she has seen me in her flames, facing the dark with Lightbringer raised on high. Lightbringer!" Stannis gave a derisive snort. "It glimmers prettily, I'll grant you, but on the Blackwater this magic sword served me no better than any common steel." (aSoS, Davos V)

In other words, since the moment Stannis pulled the sword out of the flames at Dragonstone, he has been bound blood and soul to Mel. It doesn't rob him from his own desires, will, morals and reasoning. But Mel has a hold on him since then, and can apply a type of magical pressure onto Stannis when she desires him to do something. When we first read Davos' chapters in aSoS about Mel's wish to have Edric Storm to burn in order to raise a stone dragon of Dragonstone, we believe it to be an intellectual debate between Mel and Davos on Stannis's shoulders. We reckon that Mel tries to cheat by using knowledge about the future to make it appear that Edric Storm's blood in the leeches she burned caused the death of Joffrey, Balon and Robb. That and her sleeping with Stannis. But in aDwD we finally get a reveal what the pulsing of Mel's ruby implies. It's not just to glamor something or someone, and retain the spell. It allows her to have magical mental pressure on someone. And Stannis is her first and foremost target of it. While initially Stannis never had any intention of harming Edric Storm, angered that Cortnay Penrose would even believe this of him, he is ready to agree to Mel's request to burn the boy. Edric Storm is only saved, because Davos put him on a boat.

Mel also taught Stannis to see things himself in the flames. He's become a pupil of hers.

 

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Stannis stared at the silver dish. "She has shown it to me, Lord Davos. In the flames."

"You saw it, sire?" It was not like Stannis Baratheon to lie about such a thing.

"With mine own eyes. After the battle, when I was lost to despair, the Lady Melisandre bid me gaze into the hearthfire. The chimney was drawing strongly, and bits of ash were rising from the fire. I stared at them, feeling half a fool, but she bid me look deeper, and . . . the ashes were white, rising in the updraft, yet all at once it seemed as if they were falling. Snow, I thought. Then the sparks in the air seemed to circle, to become a ring of torches, and I was looking through the fire down on some high hill in a forest. The cinders had become men in black behind the torches, and there were shapes moving through the snow. For all the heat of the fire, I felt a cold so terrible I shivered, and when I did the sight was gone, the fire but a fire once again. But what I saw was real, I'd stake my kingdom on it." (aSoS, Davos IV)

"I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning . . . burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?" The king moved, so his shadow fell upon King's Landing. (aSoS, Davos V)

 

We learn how Stannis becomes a flame-seer himself under Mel's tutelage alongside of the plot where Mel keeps on requesting Stannis for Edric Storm.

 

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"When the fires speak more plainly, so shall I. There is truth in the flames, but it is not always easy to see." The great ruby at her throat drank fire from the glow of the brazier. "Give me the boy, Your Grace. It is the surer way. The better way. Give me the boy and I shall wake the stone dragon."

"I have told you, no." (aSoS, Davos IV)

"Is the hand of R'hllor spotted and palsied?" asked Stannis. "This sounds more Walder Frey's handiwork than any god's."

"R'hllor chooses such instruments as he requires." The ruby at Melisandre's throat shone redly. "His ways are mysterious, but no man may withstand his fiery will."

"No man may withstand him!" the queen cried.

[...]

Stannis rounded on him in a cold fury. "I know his name. Spare me your reproaches. I like this no more than you do, but my duty is to the realm. My duty . . ." He turned back to Melisandre. "You swear there is no other way? Swear it on your life, for I promise, you shall die by inches if you lie."

"You are he who must stand against the Other. The one whose coming was prophesied five thousand years ago. The red comet was your herald. You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the world fails with you." Melisandre went to him, her red lips parted, her ruby throbbing. "Give me this boy," she whispered, "and I will give you your kingdom." (aSoS, Davos V)

 

So, before Mel and Stannis get to the Wall, we have alraedy seen how Mel manipulates Stannis: the flames and the magic hold she has over someone wearing her ruby. It's just that George never showed us what was happening to Stannis' ruby in the hilt of the sword while Mel's throbs, in Davos' chapters at the time. But he shows it to us between Mance and Mel. And in the conversation to Jon before Stannis, right after Stannis gifted "Rattleshirt" to Jon, Mel and Mance discuss it rather openly. It all shows that Mel does not feel the need to go behind Stannis' back whatsoever to swap Mance with Rattleshirt in a glamor. All she needed to do was magically pressure him (several times) after Val, Gilly and Jon reasoned with Stannis to save Mance's life and show him a vision in the flames. And this time, there was no Davos to meddle with it.

How accustomed Mel has become to using this magical pressure on Stannis is evidenced in the discussion about sending Gilly away.

 

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Jon knew better than to press the point. "Sire, some claim that you mean to grant lands and castles to Rattleshirt and the Magnar of Thenn."

"Who told you that?"

The talk was all over Castle Black. "If you must know, I had the tale from Gilly."

"Who is Gilly?"

"The wet nurse," said Lady Melisandre. "Your Grace gave her freedom of the castle."

"Not for running tales. She's wanted for her teats, not for her tongue. I'll have more milk from her, and fewer messages."

"Castle Black needs no useless mouths," Jon agreed. "I am sending Gilly south on the next ship out of Eastwatch."

Melisandre touched the ruby at her neck. "Gilly is giving suck to Dalla's son as well as her own. It seems cruel of you to part our little prince from his milk brother, my lord."

Careful now, careful. "Mother's milk is all they share. Gilly's son is larger and more robust. He kicks the prince and pinches him, and shoves him from the breast. Craster was his father, a cruel man and greedy, and blood tells."

The king was confused. "I thought the wet nurse was this man Craster's daughter?"

"Wife and daughter both, Your Grace. Craster married all his daughters. Gilly's boy was the fruit of their union."

"Her own father got this child on her?" Stannis sounded shocked. "We are well rid of her, then. I will not suffer such abominations here. This is not King's Landing." (aDwD, Jon I)

 

Later on Val warns Jon that Mel knows very well that sweet little monster is GIlly's son and not actually Mance's.

 

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"Monster?"

"His milk name. I had to call him something. See that he stays safe and warm. For his mother's sake, and mine. And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires." [...] "Kings and dragons."

Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame. "If she knew, she would have taken the boy away from us. Dalla's boy, not your monster. A word in the king's ear would have been the end of it." And of me. Stannis would have taken it for treason. "Why let it happen if she knew?"

"Because it suited her. Fire is a fickle thing. No one knows which way a flame will go." (aDwD, Jon VIII)

 

It's far more likely that Mel foresaw Jon would want to swap the babes and send Gilly away with Mance's son, and she had hoped that with some magical pressure (touching her ruby) and giving some sound argument to Jon within Stannis' earshot that Stannis would go along with her argument and order Gilly to remain. But Jon revealed the incest and Stannis's abhorrence for it was stronger than Mel's magical pressure on him.

Moreover notice that the scene where Mel applies magical pressure on Stannis via her ruby, starts with a rumor that Gilly spread - that Stannis intends to gift Rattleshirt and the Magnar of the Thenns a castle on the Gift, which falls in line with Stannis's early idea of letting the Thenns and Lord of Bones through the Wall to resettle the Gift.

 

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"Whilst your brothers have been struggling to decide who shall lead them, I have been speaking with this Mance Rayder." He ground his teeth. "A stubborn man, that one, and prideful. He will leave me no choice but to give him to the flames. But we took other captives as well, other leaders. The one who calls himself the Lord of Bones, some of their clan chiefs, the new Magnar of Thenn. Your brothers will not like it, no more than your father's lords, but I mean to allow the wildlings through the Wall . . . those who will swear me their fealty, pledge to keep the king's peace and the king's laws, and take the Lord of Light as their god. Even the giants, if those great knees of theirs can bend. I will settle them on the Gift, once I have wrested it away from your new Lord Commander. When the cold winds rise, we shall live or die together. It is time we made alliance against our common foe." He looked at Jon. "Would you agree?"

"My father dreamed of resettling the Gift," Jon admitted. "He and my uncle Benjen used to talk of it." He never thought of settling it with wildlings, though . . . but he never rode with wildlings, either. He did not fool himself; the free folk would make for unruly subjects and dangerous neighbors. Yet when he weighed Ygritte's red hair against the cold blue eyes of the wights, the choice was easy. "I agree." (aSoS, Jon XII)

 

So, initially Stannis means to have Rattleshirt settle on the Gift, means to give him a castle on the Gift, and then after the actual Rattleshirt died, he suddenly gifts him to Jon. At the very least it proves Stannis changed his plans, and he must have done so by the urging of Mel who saw "this man" would serve Jon faithfully. He intended to give Rattleshirt freedom and lands with a castle, but then hands him over to Jon as a manacled prisoner. It strongly backs the notion that Stannis knows Rattleshirt isn't Rattleshirt.

Twice George has shown us how Mel attempts to persuade Stannis a certain way via this magical ruby pressure, and twice it failed. But for her to do this so consistently, especially in the scene about Gilly, Mel must also have succeeded numerous times. And of course George did not show us how Mel succeeded to convince Stannis to spare Mance's life and switch it for Rattleshirt's, because what would be the reader's surprise in learning of Mance being alive halfway aDwD then.

So, I've shown you how Mel would have convinced Stannis of it: visions in flames + magical pressure. And I have shown that Mel's and Mance's rather open show of the use of the rubies to Jon in front of Stannis while Mance is glamored as Rattleshirt fits best once we assume Stannis knows of it, especially give that Stannis is aware enough himself that his pretty glimmering sword is a glamored object.

And of course the same war room scene includes several mentions of Crowfood desiring Mance's skull. And Stannis is not a fan of that request whatsoever.

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"Half of them, and only if I meet this Crowfood's price," said Stannis, in an irritated tone. "He wants Mance Rayder's skull for a drinking cup, and he wants a pardon for his brother, who has ridden south to join Bolton. Whoresbane, he's called." (aDwD, Jon IV)

While I agree that certainly the latter demand would be cause enough for Stannis to be irritated, I would like to point out that Stannis is irritated about both demands. If Stannis himself believed Mance to be burned and dead, then he would not have an issue with sending Crowfood his skull for a gift. It would be the easiest request to fulfill. And then George would have written the above answer differently. Stannis would have callously said, "Oh, he wants Mance Rayder's skull for a drinking cup". Then he added in an irritated tone, "And he wants a pardon for his brother ..." But Stannis does not separate the two demands, and is already irritated at the thought of gifting Mance Rayder's skull to Crowfood.

Stannis' irritation on both demands makes sense only if Stannis agreed to swap Mance for Rattleshirt. Because it would mean that Stannis went through days and weeks of Val and Jon and others argue to save Mance. He talked to Mance himself for many hours. He felt he ought to burn him, but then finally was convinced to not burn him, but after being so adamant about the intent to burn Mance, Stannis had to resort to glamors and deceit to save Mance as all requested, and to have done so may cost him a potential ally who wants Mance's skull to drink from.

Finally there are Mel's last words to Jon in her own singular chapter:

 

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"Our false king has a prickly manner," Melisandre told Jon Snow, "but he will not betray you. We hold his son, remember. And he owes you his very life."

"Me?" Snow sounded startled.

"Who else, my lord? Only his life's blood could pay for his crimes, your laws said, and Stannis Baratheon is not a man to go against the law … but as you said so sagely, the laws of men end at the Wall. I told you that the Lord of Light would hear your prayers. You wanted a way to save your little sister and still hold fast to the honor that means so much to you, to the vows you swore before your wooden god." She pointed with a pale finger. "There he stands, Lord Snow. Arya's deliverance. A gift from the Lord of Light … and me." (aDwD, Melisandre 1) 

 

The conversation that Mel alludes to here was the one Jon had in aDwD, Jon I shortly before he informs Stannis about the rumors of Stannis intending to gift Rattleshirt a castle, shortly before Mel attempts to magic pressure Stannis in agreeing with her argument to keep Gilly at the Wall.

 

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"I would hope the truth would please you, Sire. Your men call Val a princess, but to the free folk she is only the sister of their king's dead wife. If you force her to marry a man she does not want, she is like to slit his throat on their wedding night. Even if she accepts her husband, that does not mean the wildlings will follow him, or you. The only man who can bind them to your cause is Mance Rayder."

"I know that," Stannis said, unhappily. "I have spent hours speaking with the man. He knows much and more of our true enemy, and there is cunning in him, I'll grant you. Even if he were to renounce his kingship, though, the man remains an oathbreaker. Suffer one deserter to live, and you encourage others to desert. No. Laws should be made of iron, not of pudding. Mance Rayder's life is forfeit by every law of the Seven Kingdoms."

"The law ends at the Wall, Your Grace. You could make good use of Mance."

"I mean to. I'll burn him, and the north will see how I deal with turncloaks and traitors. I have other men to lead the wildlings. And I have Rayder's son, do not forget. Once the father dies, his whelp will be the King-Beyond-the-Wall."

"Your Grace is mistaken." You know nothing, Jon Snow, Ygritte used to say, but he had learned. "The babe is no more a prince than Val is a princess. You do not become King-Beyond-the-Wall because your father was." (aDwD, Jon I)

 

Mel does not care for laws, let alone the laws of the Seven Kingdoms. That argument that Mel cites to Jon as being the reason Mance's life was saved means absolutely nothing to her. It can only count in Stannis's mind. Between Mel and Stannis, only he would care about having a valid legal argument to ignore the laws of the Seven Kingdoms. His jurisdiction ends at the New Gift. Mel even mentions Stannis in that respect.

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and Stannis Baratheon is not a man to go against the law … but as you said so sagely, the laws of men end at the Wall.

Mel's final words in her own words confirm that Stannis agreed to save Mance after the meeting with Jon in aDwD, Jon I. For not only did Jon provide Stannis a legal out, he also provided Stannis with the knowledge that Dalla's son would not necessarily be seen as King-Beyond-the-Wall by the wildlings and therefore of no use to him to bind the wildlings to Stannis.

[kissdbyfire]

Yeah, I’ve always believed Stannis was in on the switcheroo all along. I think it’s what makes the most sense, especially when one considers all the textual support for it that you quoted above. 
The only one I think is a bit iffy is irt to Umber wanted Mance’s skull. I mean, Stannis could send him any skull and Umber would be none the wiser.

[sweetsunray]

19 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, I’ve always believed Stannis was in on the switcheroo all along. I think it’s what makes the most sense, especially when one considers all the textual support for it that you quoted above. 
The only one I think is a bit iffy is irt to Umber wanted Mance’s skull. I mean, Stannis could send him any skull and Umber would be none the wiser.

Agreed, but I think George used it here to make the request and the scene ironic once you know who Rattleshirt really is upon reread.

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Agreed, but I think George used it here to make the request and the scene ironic once you know who Rattleshirt really is upon reread.

Yeah, good point.

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, good point.

And at the very least we can imagine that Stannis would be annoyed at now having to add another lie to the first big one.

[Nathan Stark]

Well reasoned and well argued. I think this puts to rest any notion that Stannis is politically inept. He can and does manage good political intrigue when it suits his purposes.

[McBaine]

On 1/15/2023 at 6:55 PM, sweetsunray said:

However, the text and some things that Stannis, Mel and Mance-as-Rattleshirt say to Jon makes the most sense when we assume this swapping of Mance and Rattleshirt was a plan Mel and Stannis concocted together.

Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I don't think so. Most of your quotes I interpret completely differently. Some I think I can even debunk. I don't think Stannis was in on it and Melisandre went behind his back.

On 1/15/2023 at 6:55 PM, sweetsunray said:

"So long as he wears the gem he is bound to me, blood and soul," the red priestess said. "This man will serve you faithfully. The flames do not lie, Lord Snow." (aDwD, Jon IV)

You take the word of Melisandre, who in this very moment tries to convince Jon to trust "Rattleshirt", as the pure truth and I don't know why. Mel is a lying liar who lies. We know pretty much exactly what those rubies do: they glamor. They glamor Mance to appear as Rattleshirt, Mel to appear as young and Lightbringer to appear as glowing. And now, that Jon openly says that you can't trust Rattleshirt, Mel tries to convince him and reveals, that these rubies... well, they bind the untrustworthy Rattleshirt to her and he can now be trusted? That seems awfully conveniant and more than a bit shady. In this moment, in this situation, the words of Mel to what her rubies do mean less than nothing.

On 1/15/2023 at 6:55 PM, sweetsunray said:

So, initially Stannis means to have Rattleshirt settle on the Gift, means to give him a castle on the Gift, and then after the actual Rattleshirt died, he suddenly gifts him to Jon. At the very least it proves Stannis changed his plans, and he must have done so by the urging of Mel who saw "this man" would serve Jon faithfully. He intended to give Rattleshirt freedom and lands with a castle, but then hands him over to Jon as a manacled prisoner. It strongly backs the notion that Stannis knows Rattleshirt isn't Rattleshirt.

Stannis changed his mind and was convinced that it is fine that Rattleshirt goes with Jon (a feat that is completely acomplishable without magic - Stannis listens to advice, he was listening to Davos and changed his mind without any rubies involved and Mel also needs no ruby). If he buys Melisandre's tale of the binding ruby, why would there be a need to know that "Rattleshirt" is Mance in disguise? I don't think this backs anything of the sort.

On 1/15/2023 at 6:55 PM, sweetsunray said:

Twice George has shown us how Mel attempts to persuade Stannis a certain way via this magical ruby pressure, and twice it failed. But for her to do this so consistently, especially in the scene about Gilly, Mel must also have succeeded numerous times. And of course George did not show us how Mel succeeded to convince Stannis to spare Mance's life and switch it for Rattleshirt's, because what would be the reader's surprise in learning of Mance being alive halfway aDwD then.

Again you point out that Mel is shown not being able to convince Stannis of something with the ruby (with a 100% failure rate, 2 out of 2 times it doesn't work) and take it as prove that

1. The ruby does exactly what Mel claims it does (when we know that the only proven power is glamor) and can control people - a thing that is at least not reliable in Stannis' case even if it were true.

2. That somehow that must mean that Stannis knew about the swap because we didn't see her using the allegedly mind controlling ruby to convince Stannis to swap Mance with Rattleshirt.

This is quite the reach.

 

I stay unconvinced that Stannis knew about the swap. It seems way more believable to me that Stannis was adamant about burning Mance and when Mel couldn't convince him, she went behind his back and did what she knew best. She might have tricked Stannis as well as Jon. Her gifts are mostly trickery and illusions - I bet half the stuff Stannis saw in the fire might be a trick of Mel to get him to do what she wanted.

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Her sleeves were full of hidden pockets, and she checked them carefully as she did every morning to make certain all her powders were in place. Powders to turn fire green or blue or silver, powders to make a flame roar and hiss and leap up higher than a man is tall, powders to make smoke. A smoke for truth, a smoke for lust, a smoke for fear, and the thick black smoke that could kill a man outright. The red priestess armed herself with a pinch of each of them. (ADwD, Melisandre)

When Mance (glamored as Rattleshirt) visits Melisandre in her chambers, he plays with a knife.

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Melisandre paid the naked steel no mind. If the wildling had meant her harm, she would have seen it
in her flames. (ADwD, Melisandre)

These are not the thoughts of a woman who has someone bound by blood and soul. She doesn't think of the ruby, or if it might work or fail, she is feeling save because she had no vision of harm. Mance is not bound or hindered by the ruby at all. Mel was lying to Jon Snow (and maybe Stannis) about the ruby making "Rattleshirt" loyal.

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Was I wrong to spare this one? (ADwD, Melisandre)

Melisandre ponders this in the talk with Mance. Was SHE wrong to spare him? Doesn't seem like Stannis had anything to do with it.

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Mance Rayder chuckled. “I had my doubts as well, Snow, but why not let her try? It was that, or let Stannis roast me.” (ADwD, Melisandre)

When Melisandre lets the glamor melt away, Mance says that Melisandre was the one to save him with the glamor and that Stannis would have burned him. Faced with glamor or fiery death, Mance chose the glamor. I don't think they told Stannis.

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“Our false king has a prickly manner,” Melisandre told Jon Snow, “but he will not betray you. We
hold his son, remember. And he owes you his very life.” (ADwD, Melisandre)

And here, Melisandre doesn't even try to sell Jon on the bound by blood and soul thing through the ruby. She tells him what really holds Mance's loyalty - a simple hostage. There is no sorcery that influences and compels, no magic blood oath or anything like that - just lies and a ruby that glamors.

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“There he stands, Lord Snow. Arya’s deliverance. A gift from the Lord of Light … and me.” (ADwD, Melisandre)

Not from Stannis. From Melisandre. Stannis was probably tricked like everybody else.

[sweetsunray]

35 minutes ago, McBaine said:

Stannis changed his mind and was convinced that it is fine that Rattleshirt goes with Jon (a feat that is completely acomplishable without magic - Stannis listens to advice, he was listening to Davos and changed his mind without any rubies involved and Mel also needs no ruby). If he buys Melisandre's tale of the binding ruby, why would there be a need to know that "Rattleshirt" is Mance in disguise? I don't think this backs anything of the sort.

He does this solely with Rattleshirt, not for example the new Magnar. There's a discrepance between what he does with "Rattleshirt" and the Magnar, though he promised both the same.

35 minutes ago, McBaine said:

Again you point out that Mel is shown not being able to convince Stannis of something with the ruby (with a 100% failure rate, 2 out of 2 times it doesn't work) and take it as prove that

1. The ruby does exactly what Mel claims it does (when we know that the only proven power is glamor) and can control people - a thing that is at least not reliable in Stannis' case even if it were true.

2. That somehow that must mean that Stannis knew about the swap because we didn't see her using the allegedly mind controlling ruby to convince Stannis to swap Mance with Rattleshirt.

This is quite the reach

You are either misrepresenting my claim or misunderstanding it.

I never claimed the ruby gives an absolute mental mindpower over someone else. Not even Mel claims that. The reason for this is that George only gives such a mental power over other humans with the Others and their wights, who are dead. But George preserves free will otherwise in anyone who's mind is not broken. So, yes Mance and Stannis still have free will.

I think of the ruby's effect as a feeling of mental pressure that can wear someone down over time. Davos notices how much Stannis looks more and more worn out, the longer he stays around Mel, even though she stops making shadowbabies. And this is at a time he's not starving in a crofter's village amidst a snowstorm. And yes, Mel was having success with Stannis when it came to sacrificing Edric Storm. The sole reason he was not sacrificed was because Davos smuggled him out. And yet, when first Davos returned from the Blackwater, Stannis was still upset that Cortnay Penrose could ever believe he would harm the boy.

Meanwhile Mance mentions how the ruby annoys him, and renders some itching burning sensation, which is why he tries to pry it loose with a knife (especially as a man of the Free Folk).

So, the mental pressure is comparable to a chronic ache imo. Anyone who has bouts of chronic pain such as migraine or nerve pain or low back pain, etc will get that it wears you out, not just physically but mentally.

As for Mel being a liar: the best lies have truth in them.

Edited October 5, 2023 by sweetsunray

[McBaine]

48 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

He does this solely with Rattleshirt, not for example the new Magnar. There's a discrepance between what he does with "Rattleshirt" and the Magnar, though he promised both the same.

Well, that is the changing his mind part. He can have changed his mind without knowing the "Rattleshirt" situation. Mel knows the truth and could have given him council to convince him of "Rattleshirt" for her scheming.

53 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I never claimed the ruby gives an absolute mental mindpower over someone else. Not even Mel claims that.

Mel claims exactly that:

On 1/15/2023 at 6:55 PM, sweetsunray said:

"So long as he wears the gem he is bound to me, blood and soul," the red priestess said. "This man will serve you faithfully.

Bound to her, blood and soul. If that doesn't suggest or outright means at least reasonably good control or loyalty I don't know. What would the point be otherwise if it is used as a reason for his faithful service?

Meanwhile we know from her chapter, that she thinks of no such bond. She thinks about not having seen harm for her in the flames, and therefore not fearing Mance and his knife. She also speaks of holding Mance's child hostage. The "bound by blood and soul" is a lie she told Jon (and maybe Stannis) to convince him to trust "Rattleshirt". Nothing else.

That you build your whole theory about ruby focused mental pressure on this once uttered line by Mel in a situation were she has all the reason to manipulate and lie and then never thinking or speaking of it again, makes it a huge stretch in my opinion.

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Meanwhile Mance mentions how the ruby annoys him, and renders some itching burning sensation, which is why he tries to pry it loose with a knife (especially as a man of the Free Folk).

So, the mental pressure is comparable to a chronic ache imo. Anyone who has bouts of chronic pain such as migraine or nerve pain or low back pain, etc will get that it wears you out, not just physically but mentally.

The magic of the ruby does that - the magic of the ruby that glamors. It is a physical sensation. Mel mentions that when Rattleshirt burned, her ruby got so hot while holding the glamor, that it nearly burned her throat because of the connection to the one that disguised Rattleshirt.

Again I see no evidence of mental pressure. The burning and itching doesn't prove that there is mental pressure, the magic of the red god has side effects, but they can come from glamoring.  Mance also got rid of the Bones because they annoyed him, so contemplating getting rid of a ruby that is not only heavy and cumbersome but also is physically ithcing and burning, sometimes feeling like a kiss, sometimes like fire.

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

As for Mel being a liar: the best lies have truth in them.

The true part was that Mel thinks she can control Mance (by having his son as a hostage).

If we ignore Mel's line to Jon about binding "Rattleshirt" blood and soul through the ruby, what other line is there that mentions that even remotely? Mel needs to explain why she gifted "Rattleshirt" a valuable gem without being suspicious (or the ruse might be discovered). She also wants to convince Jon that he can trust "Rattleshirt". Two birds, one stone, and a lie about the "control ruby", or "loyalty ruby" or "mind pressure ruby" is born.

I find that at least way more likely than the ruby actually doing anything else but glamoring to what it is attached. 

[sweetsunray]

I notice you are completely ignoring Stannis agreeing to burn Edric Storm.

Thank you for bringing up Mel being in pain and bleeding while the real Rattleshirt burns. Sure, that's because of a "glamor" not because the real Rattleshirt is connected to her with "blood and soul" somehow. Weird that FM consider "glamors" but a parlor trick and not a powerful magic, when it can make the glamorer bleed and be in pain when the one being glamored is in pain, but it stops when he's dead (not when his glamor is done)

ETA: Mel says "blood and soul", not ""blood, mind and soul"

8 hours ago, McBaine said:

Mel needs to explain why she gifted "Rattleshirt" a valuable gem without being suspicious (or the ruse might be discovered).

So, your point is that Mel says being bound blood and soul as a ruse to explain gifting a ruby to Rattleshirt, with Stannis right there, so he wouldn't figure out Rattleshirt ain't glamored?

Sounds like a bad ruse to say to Stannis either way.

1. Stannis knows a ruby means glamoring. He knows his sword is glamored. That's why he mocks it himself to Davos at some point and is embarrassed when someone like Aemon and Samwell ask to have a closer look.
2. If he isn't under Mel's mental pressure influence because of the Ruby, he now just hears something that should question carrying that sword with a huge ruby in it around.

And thirdly, ruse or true, it absolutely paints Rattleshirt as a prisoner all of a sudden: bodily by Stannis who gifts him to Jon and as soul by Mel. But Rattleshirt wasn't a prisoner before this war meeting to be bodily gifted to someone else. He was a wildling ally like the Magnar. And then for some weird reason, Stannis "changed his mind" and decided to make him a prisoner again body and soul to be gifted physically from one jailer to another, but not the Magnar, because Stannis apparently is a whimsickal fickle mind all of his own. And you're trying to tell me that my conclusions are contradictory?

Edited October 6, 2023 by sweetsunray
Added a subtle difference about "blood and soul" not being "blood, mind and soul"

[chrisdaw]

This is a useful quote in explaining Stannis knew. "Rattleshirt" to Jon.

Quote

"You flatter yourself," Jon said.

"Aye, but I'd flatten you."

"Stannis burned the wrong man."

"No." The wildling grinned at him through a mouth of brown and broken teeth. "He burned the man he had to burn, for all the world to see. We all do what we have to do, Snow. Even kings."

When we understand Stannis knew (made the actual decision) the quote takes on a different meaning.

 

I wonder if GRRM meant for it to be ambiguous, I don't think he did. I think it's just the nature of having to keep the whole identity secret for as long as required and that if you "knew" you'd never read it not knowing and so wouldn't necessarily catch that your reveal didn't make it immediately apparent that it was Stannis behind the decision and that people would assume Mel acted without him.

An interesting question is if Val knows. Val never cried when "Mance" was burned. She believes she knows Mel knows about the baby swap, although why she believes this is not entirely clear, suggesting some communication between the two. And when Jon mentions Stannis by name in requesting Val not berate Seylse Val turns from playful to uncharacteristically serious and agrees to Jon's request, they then carry on in silence.

Edited October 5, 2023 by chrisdaw

[McBaine]

18 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I notice you are completely ignoring Stannis agreeing to burn Edric Storm.

What am I ignoring about this? It is just not important.

Stannis was on the fence and might even have done it. So? Him changing his mind while listening to counsel from Davos and Melisandre. While he at first is against it and offended someone would suggest it and in the end agreed Davos was right to spirit him away there was the in between were he seriously struggled with the decision, because Mel said it was the only way to defeat the Other and the cold dead things.

Even then, Stannis is not easily susceptible to Mel's reasons of visions and a supernatural threat. He threatens her to kill her slowly and painfully if she lies ("You'll die by inches") and gets really angry with her on more than one occasion.

What is puzzling for me is that this should be more than Mel trying to manipulate Stannis by normal means. I see no hint or evidence about "mind pressure" there. I see Davos and Mel fighting with words and Stannis struggling with his moral compass while both appeal to him.

Meanwhile many hints are dropped that "Rattleshirt" is not Rattleshirt. Mance is taunting Jon, asks how he likes his ruby. These hints foreshadow the glamor, but nowhere is a hint to mind pressure to be found.

 

18 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

So, your point is that Mel says being bound blood and soul as a ruse to explain gifting a ruby to Rattleshirt, with Stannis right there, so he wouldn't figure out Rattleshirt ain't glamored?

No, my point is that Mel says being bound by blood and soul as a ruse to convince Jon to trust "Rattleshirt". That is the main scheme - it just conveniently also explains the ruby that otherwise might have led to questions.

18 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

• Stannis knows a ruby means glamoring. He knows his sword is glamored. That's why he mocks it himself to Davos at some point and is embarrassed when someone like Aemon and Samwell ask to have a closer look.
• If he isn't under Mel's mental pressure influence because of the Ruby, he now just hears something that should question carrying that sword with a huge ruby in it around.

Does Stannis know? Stannis is a doubter, and noticed that while it glows prettily, there is no difference to common steel. I would not equate this to the sure knowledge of and what a glamor is.

He just heard that "Rattleshirt" is bound because he wears the ruby. He does not wear a ruby. His sword does. Let "Lightbringer" be bound to Mel blood and soul all day. It doesn't affect Stannis. And Stannis knows it doesn't affect him: He ignored Mel's wishes whenever he wants. 

18 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

And thirdly, ruse or true, it absolutely paints Rattleshirt as a prisoner all of a sudden: bodily by Stannis who gifts him to Jon and as soul by Mel. But Rattleshirt wasn't a prisoner before this war meeting to be bodily gifted to someone else. He was a wildling ally like the Magnar. And then for some weird reason, Stannis "changed his mind" and decided to make him a prisoner again body and soul to be gifted physically from one jailer to another, but not the Magnar, because Stannis apparently is a whimsickal fickle mind all of his own. And you're trying to tell me that my conclusions are contradictory?

What is contradictory in my conclusion? Stannis is not fickle, but he can change his mind given good counsel. He listens to Davos despite his low birth, values expertise above political station.

You know who might have had a hand in changing Stannis' mind after hearing rumors that Stannis considered to give Rattleshirt lands and castles? It was Jon.

 

Quote

 

Rattleshirt, we called him. Treacherous and bloodthirsty. If there's honor in him, he hides it down beneath his suit of bones.

—Jon Snow to Stannis Baratheon (ASoS, Jon XI)

 

 

If Mel instead suggested "Rattleshirt" would be a good candidate to help Jon, but not the Magnar (who was not noted as treacherous by Jon to Stannis), and backed it up with good reasons, why shouldn't Stannis reconsider? 

 

@chrisdaw It can certainly be read in different ways. Not sure if GRRM intended it to be this way, but this is in my opinion neither a point for, nor against the theory that Stannis knew.

[sweetsunray]

10 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

I wonder if GRRM meant for it to be ambiguous, I don't think he did.

Agreed. It's just how he writes. He would never ever write any character saying literally "Yes, Stannis knows about it". Because it's just not a natural thing to say or come up in a situation. It comes pretty close to breaking the 4th Wall. Joffrey saying he knows Valyrian steel is the closest to saying such a thing. George writes it as implied, because it enriches rereads even though you already "Rattleshirt's" true identity, and because it's more natural. 

• To Mel it's logical that Stannis knows: so she gives the most natural sounding declaration
• To Mance it's logical that Stannis knows: so he hints that the king made the right choice
• For Stannis it's logical that he knows: so he sort of jokes and is mighty pleased with himself of gifting "Rattleshirt" to Jon. He behaves as someone who's in on the joke.
• And Jon would logically assume Stannis knows as well.

So the 4 characters involved or knowing about it, never question whether Stannis knows or not, and thus behave and say natural things that imply Stannis knows, without explicitly spelling it out, because the sole reason to spell it out would be for the benefit of the reader, which is basically breaking the 4th Wall.

[sweetsunray]

37 minutes ago, McBaine said:

Stannis was on the fence and might even have done it. So? Him changing his mind while listening to counsel from Davos and Melisandre. While he at first is against it and offended someone would suggest it and in the end agreed Davos was right to spirit him away there was the in between were he seriously struggled with the decision, because Mel said it was the only way to defeat the Other and the cold dead things.

But Stannis did not "change his mind" based on Davos' counsel. Davos simply had a good letter to read to show there was a far more pressing problem than whether he should be executed for smuggling Edric out or not. Davos would not have smuggled Edric out if he was not convinced that Mel would get what she wanted.

Mel didn't say it was the only way to defeat the Other and cold dead things. She said that with burning Edric Storm she could make one of the dragon statues of Dragonstone come alive, so that Stannis would have a dragon to conquer the Iron Throne.

37 minutes ago, McBaine said:

What is puzzling for me is that this should be more than Mel trying to manipulate Stannis by normal means. I see no hint or evidence about "mind pressure" there.

Stannis is angry and flabbergasted still that Cortnay Penrose could believe Stannis would ever harm his bastard nephew.

Two chapters later he is ready to execute Davos for making sure that Edric Storm could not be burned by Mel.

Yes, that contrast in just two chapters goes beyond Mel arguing her point to Stannis and him thinking this. It is about something he never believed himself to be capable of two chapters before and then he goes along with it. And yes, in George prior writing that is a sign of some mental pressure being applied.

37 minutes ago, McBaine said:

It doesn't affect Stannis. And Stannis knows it doesn't affect him: He ignored Mel's wishes whenever he wants. 

It does affact Stannis, because he wears the sword.

He did not ignore Mel's wishes whenever he wanted - see Edric Storm.

And no, "blood and soul" is not a ruse, since that is evident from Mel's experience when the real Rattleshirt burns. A man's blood and soul are being burned and she experiences it partially from a distance. She is relieved Jon killed him, because that severed the blood & soul link, and ended her own pain experience

Edited October 6, 2023 by sweetsunray

[McBaine]

49 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

But Stannis did not "change his mind" based on Davos' counsel.

Stannis did not definately decide for one or the other, but was struggling with making a decision. Had he made the decision, Edric would already have been on fire. Davos feared Stannis would go through with it when he learns of Joffrey's death and indeed, Stannis hinted at it. When the time came and Davos brought the news of the Purple Wedding, Stannis again threatens Melisandre with death if she is wrong, but it is then revealed, that Davos already smuggled the boy away.

 

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Mel didn't say it was the only way to defeat the Other and cold dead things. She said that with burning Edric Storm she could make one of the dragon statues of Dragonstone come alive, so that Stannis would have a dragon to conquer the Iron Throne.

This was not only about the kingdom, nor was it an easy decision, since Stannis believed the could save many. Stannis tries to win the throne because he belives it is his right as well as his

 

duty, and with that duty comes saving people.

Quote

I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty... If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark... Sacrifice... is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice. (AsoS, Davos VI)

Quote

Demons made of snow and ice and cold. The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters. (ASoS, Samwell V)

Stannis was contemplating the sacrifice, because he learned of the White Walkers, and when he before could not imagine burning Edric, with the threat of demonic entities and millions at risk, he was struggling. Still angry and threatening Mel with torture and death if she is wrong, but with the new perspective of the real enemy and so many lives at stake, Stannis might have changed his mind. It is the thought experiment of the trolley problem. Save one or save many. Stannis was on the fence, but certainly leaned towards saving the many.

Davos then showed him the letter and Stannis opted to not decapitate him, but instead let it go and save the people on the Wall. If that is not Davos changing Stannis' mind, I don't know what is. If Stannis disagreed, he could have beheaded Davos and then save the people. Later we learn what Davos said:

Quote

"Lord Seaworth ... reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne."

To your other points:

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

It does affact Stannis, because he wears the sword.

What is your evidence for this? Or that there is even anything to affect anyone (apart from the glamor)?

 

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

He did not ignore Mel's wishes whenever he wanted - see Edric Storm.

He decided after having information. It was not easily done and not without strong resistance and threats from Stannis. It was the argument of saving many in exchange for the boy (trolley problem) and not some mind presuure, at least not some supernatural one. You already pointed two instances out were he ignored Mel and did not what she wanted.

 

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

And no, "blood and soul" is not a ruse, since that is evident from Mel's experience when the real Rattleshirt burns. A man's blood and soul are being burned and she experiences it partially from a distance. She is relieved Jon killed him, because that severed the blood & soul link, and ended her own pain experience

Again, what is your evidence? We only know that she felt pain when Rattleshirt was burnt. But she also feels pain when she has visions from the fire and while using other magic:
 

Quote

 

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside
her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on
her skin, insistent as a lover’s hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past

[...]

It was an art, and like all arts it demanded mastery, discipline, study. Pain. That too. (ADwD, Melisandre)

 

 

[Springwatch]

@McBaine Welcome back! Do you live on a comet or something?

I also believe Stannis didn't know about the Mance-Rattleshirt switch, but I have to agree with @sweetsunray that the rubies include magical control.

It's all in the imagery. The rubies are in manacles, chains, and that tight, tight choker round Mel's neck. The idea of control is built in - in one of the earliest chapters, Dany compares her golden torc collar to the tale of the golden collars worn by Drogo's slaves. Above all, Mance's ruby is described as the slave to Mel's.

The sword too - Dalla famously says that magic is a sword without a hilt, so we understand that control comes from the hilt, where Lightbringer has its ruby. 

The idea stands up well enough. Mel offers both real and mystical incentives to Jon keeping Mance - which is fair enough: he doesn't respect her magic, but she's building towards that, and in the meantime she offers both. Similarly, the threat to herself - she's a belt and braces girl. Besides, there are things we can't know - maybe the charm on Mance makes him about as  faithful as a genie in a bottle. That would fit with the general unreliability of fire magic so far.

By the way, there was a huge thread recently on Stannis did/didn't know, which we're in danger of repeating. It might be easy to find - I'll have a look when I've got time. ETA it was 162338-did-jon-have-a-say-on-operation-arya-extraction - the Stannis debate starts page 2.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Springwatch
-

[McBaine]

On 10/7/2023 at 11:32 AM, Springwatch said:

@McBaine Welcome back! Do you live on a comet or something?

That would be telling^^ But yes, it's been a while.

On 10/7/2023 at 11:32 AM, Springwatch said:

It's all in the imagery. The rubies are in manacles, chains, and that tight, tight choker round Mel's neck. The idea of control is built in - in one of the earliest chapters, Dany compares her golden torc collar to the tale of the golden collars worn by Drogo's slaves. Above all, Mance's ruby is described as the slave to Mel's.

The sword too - Dalla famously says that magic is a sword without a hilt, so we understand that control comes from the hilt, where Lightbringer has its ruby. 

The idea stands up well enough. Mel offers both real and mystical incentives to Jon keeping Mance - which is fair enough: he doesn't respect her magic, but she's building towards that, and in the meantime she offers both. Similarly, the threat to herself - she's a belt and braces girl. Besides, there are things we can't know - maybe the charm on Mance makes him about as  faithful as a genie in a bottle. That would fit with the general unreliability of fire magic so far.

I agree that it would fit in a theme sense. You make good points for the theme, but what makes me doubt it is that the only real reference to binding/control is Melisandre's word when she tries to manipulate Jon and it is never mentioned afterwards again. In the best shot at the real information - her POV chapter - she isn't worrying if the control will work, she is only concerned about the glamor and relies on the hostage for control, not a ruby.

As long as we don't know more, I am reluctant to believe a control component is there, even if it would fit thematically, when everything can happen and be explained without such supernatural coercion from the rubies.

As for the master/slave ruby: Maybe it is my IT background, but I always read this in the technology sense (and maybe GRRM does too, he wrote sci-fi most of the time), so while a control theme is certainly there, I mostly saw it as the indication from what the energy comes and where it goes (the master ruby sends the magic/glamor, and the slave ruby receives it and glamors what it is attached to).

Quote

Master/slave is the historical terminology for a model of asymmetric communication or control where one device or process (the "master") controls one or more other devices or processes (the "slaves") and serves as their communication hub.

examples from electronics:

• A master clock that provides time signals used to synchronize one or more slave clocks as part of a clock network.
• In database replication, the master database is regarded as the authoritative source, and the slave (also called replica) databases are synchronized to it.
• In photography, secondary or slave flash units may be synchronized to the master unit to provide light from additional directions.
• In the creation of audio recordings, a master copy is created as a finalization of the audio mix, to save it to be used as a source for future copies.

In this instance Melisandre's ruby controls the other ruby and the glamor, but I never thought it would do more than that, especially control the person.

BTW I am not saying the glamor is technology, I'm just saying that I thought more along these lines when Melisandre mentioned the master/slave aspects of the ruby.

The master device controls the slave device, but not the user. (No one can mind control you if you receive an email on your computer, and your CD, made from the master copy will not brainwash you if you listen to it - the master ruby controls the glamors on the salve rubies (but the slave rubies can't control Melisandre's glamor), but can't control Mance, Rattleshirt or Lightbringer - let alone Stannis)

 

On 10/7/2023 at 11:32 AM, Springwatch said:

By the way, there was a huge thread recently on Stannis did/didn't know, which we're in danger of repeating. It might be easy to find - I'll have a look when I've got time. ETA it was 162338-did-jon-have-a-say-on-operation-arya-extraction - the Stannis debate starts page 2.

Thanks, I'll look it up.

 

 

[chrisdaw]

The topic has been debated since at least 2013.

It really should be put to bed by now though, on reread it's abundantly clear what's happened behind the scenes.

Stannis talks to Mance, draws his own conclusion that Mance has value, Mel tells him Mance has value, Val has standing with the wildlings and pleads with him for Mance's life and Jon tells him Mance has value.

For these reasons he does really want to spare MAnce, BUT, he has two problems

1) He wants his show burning to eliminate Mance and place himself as the Wildling's only hope so that they'll come to his side, and;

2) He can't consciously free Mance because the law.

Mel's ruby trick satisfies Stannis on the first point, allowing to have his shown burning, and Jon's sagely advice that the law ends at the Wall satisfies him on the second. The trickery is distasteful but it is what it is.

Stannis saves Mance and gives him to Jon as Jon asked. He saves Mance as Val asked and not coincidentally she does as Stannis wants, as she said she would.

Quote

"I have something hard to tell you." He almost said ask, but caught himself at the last instant.

"Is it Mance? Val begged the king to spare him. She said she'd let some kneeler marry her and never slit his throat if only Mance could live. That Lord o'Bones, he's to be spared. Craster always swore he'd kill him if he ever showed his face about the keep. Mance never did half the things he done."

Quote

Val stood on the platform as still as if she had been carved of salt. She will not weep nor look away..

 

[Sandy Clegg]

On 1/15/2023 at 5:55 PM, sweetsunray said:

In other words, since the moment Stannis pulled the sword out of the flames at Dragonstone, he has been bound blood and soul to Mel. It doesn't rob him from his own desires, will, morals and reasoning. But Mel has a hold on him since then, and can apply a type of magical pressure onto Stannis when she desires him to do something. When we first read Davos' chapters in aSoS about Mel's wish to have Edric Storm to burn in order to raise a stone dragon of Dragonstone, we believe it to be an intellectual debate between Mel and Davos on Stannis's shoulders. We reckon that Mel tries to cheat by using knowledge about the future to make it appear that Edric Storm's blood in the leeches she burned caused the death of Joffrey, Balon and Robb. That and her sleeping with Stannis. But in aDwD we finally get a reveal what the pulsing of Mel's ruby implies. It's not just to glamor something or someone, and retain the spell. It allows her to have magical mental pressure on someone. And Stannis is her first and foremost target of it.

I wish this had been the name of the thread, as I feel that it's the bigger talking point here How do we know for certain that the red gem exerts any 'pressure of will' on people rather than just glamour? 

On 10/5/2023 at 9:29 PM, sweetsunray said:

I think of the ruby's effect as a feeling of mental pressure that can wear someone down over time. Davos notices how much Stannis looks more and more worn out, the longer he stays around Mel, even though she stops making shadowbabies.

This might be true. Another way to look at it is that the magical effects of the gem, of Lightbringer and producing the Shadow Babies have simply left Stannis's life-force kind of drained in general. And this overall lack of energy makes him more mentally susceptible, rather than having a direct magical effect. Perhaps Melisandre times her 'suggestions' to Stannis to coincide when she is drawing on his life-force to fuel some magic.

The only reason I bother to quibble over the technicalities is because 'mental manipulation' has so far not been within Melisandre's range of abilities, and this would push her power levels significantly over the edge, no?

[Darth Sidious]

That would make Stannis a liar who allowed the most dangerous enemy of Westeros avoid punishment. He has not been recognized as a king and doesn’t have the power to pardon a big time criminal like Mance. It is very bad public relations.