Are there any characters you just have 0 sympathy for?

[Tyrosh Lannister]

On 1/22/2023 at 12:13 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Tywin could have been a strong and even harsh leader w/o becoming a hypocritical genocidal arsehole, no sympathy from me. 

He was right about a few things - like ending the reynes and tarbecks permanently 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

He was right about a few things - like ending the reynes and tarbecks permanently 

Drowning the women and children was overkill.  I once read a very chilling account of what it must have been like for people desperate to save their children, as the waters rose, and horses screaming as their stalls flooded.

[astarkchoice]

13 hours ago, SilverGhost said:

Yes. Listing all of the reasons why Roose is awful would take all of my Sunday. I was just pointing out some side reasons that were in my head at the moment. 

And yet such an interesting one too.

Part of whats sickening is how his dec to betray robb could have made everything  soo different!!!

-If hed been a bit faster or managed to suprise a few more lannister scouts hed have possibly won the whole damn war for the north! 

-If hed been pro robb  then ramsay would have behaved up north..probably would have still led his men to winterfell and had theon tortured, he and  his dreadfort men plus the other pro stark forces they later slaughter would have taken cleftjaw easily (possibly another for the slow  flaying  knife) and marched north to deal  with deepwood motte ......most likely just a direct trade of theon and cleftjaw for the house glover hostages and the ironborns safe withdrawal!!

- tywin most likely approached walder first who then approached roose, had he rejected.the deal.he could have warned robb and the northern/riverlands forces counter ambushed the freys! Secured the twins for all time and taken the probably decent frey cash reserves too.

-jamie stays put!

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

Part of whats sickening is how his dec to betray robb could have made everything  soo different!!!

It wouldn't have. Roose is a cog being pushed by other movers 

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

-If hed been a bit faster or managed to suprise a few more lannister scouts hed have possibly won the whole damn war for the north! 

Roose was specifically appointed because he's not aggressive, in fact an aggressive commander like Greatjon could have lost the whole damn war

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

If hed been pro robb  then ramsay would have behaved up north..

Ramsay does not behave nor is he Roses instrument. 

It's the other way around, Ramsay conquered the north so Roose had to kill it's king

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

tywin most likely approached walder first who then approached roose, had he rejected.the deal.he could have warned robb and the northern/riverlands forces counter ambushed the freys! Secured the twins for all time and taken the probably decent frey cash reserves too.

Tywins also a cog. This is the work of Walder with approval from Tywin. 

The fact is Roose, despite his son's success, was on the fence and Jaime's reassurance was what pushed Roose into kingslaying. 

[astarkchoice]

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

-It wouldn't have. Roose is a cog being pushed by other movers 

-Roose was specifically appointed because he's not aggressive, in fact an aggressive commander like Greatjon could have lost the whole damn war

-Ramsay does not behave nor is he Roses instrument. 

-It's the other way around, Ramsay conquered the north so Roose had to kill it's king

-Tywins also a cog. This is the work of Walder with approval from Tywin. 

The fact is Roose, despite his son's success, was on the fence and Jaime's reassurance was what pushed Roose into kingslaying. 

-disagree there hes made his own decisions. 

-yet he WAS agressive and was a scout or 2 away from winning the whole war!! Shit he still could have won it for robb had the battle went better.

-yes he does , he specifialy spares the frey boys as roose ordered.

-nope its planned between the 3 and tywin is the prime mover. Tywin likely  reaches out through his sister  gemma frey to walder and walder reaches roose. It makes ths most sense 

-hes not on the fence by that stage...jamies release is a death sentence for a man staying loyal ..he knows he wont have robb to awnser to at this stage.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

I’m sure it’s been said before; but Roose Bolton, Walder Frey, and the majority of other Freys

[astarkchoice]

3 hours ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

He was right about a few things - like ending the reynes and tarbecks permanently 

And that shae was well worth sneaking in and out of the red keep. 2 lannister men cant be wrong !

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

52 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

And that shae was well worth sneaking in and out of the red keep. 2 lannister men cant be wrong !

The Reynes didn’t deserve to be slaughtered. Lord Reyen and Lady Tarbeck should’ve been imprisoned and the rest of their families should’ve been forced to pay their debts off. Maybe even execute Lord Reyne and Lady Tarbeck as punishments for insults and theft, but not exterminating both families

[SilverGhost]

1 hour ago, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

The Reynes didn’t deserve to be slaughtered. Lord Reyen and Lady Tarbeck should’ve been imprisoned and the rest of their families should’ve been forced to pay their debts off. Maybe even execute Lord Reyne and Lady Tarbeck as punishments for insults and theft, but not exterminating both families

Agreed.

They overreached as Bannermen because Tytos was so weak - the Westerlands were a lawless mess under his rule with several landed knights and petty Lords actually swearing to Highgarden in order to gain protection. Aegon V had to send some of his knights and forces more than once to make peace in the west but Tytos would just screw it up again. 

Tywin specifically created the conflict by ordering the Lords Reyne and Tarbeck to present themselves for trial at Casterly Rock. Tywin could have cracked down the on bandits and robber knights, he could have hit back at the Ironborn raiders who'd raided Fair Isle when Tytos wouldn't let Lord Farman build ships, he could built a power base among other Lords by showing competence and cutting his father out of the decision making. Instead he went for one bit of shock and awe/show of force.

Everyone got back in line not because they respected Tywin or his ability but because it was clear that he was willing to murder hundreds to thousands if someone upset him. The ability he showed as Hand would come afterwards and I think Tywin's ruthlessness rubbed off on Aerys II. Aerys always seemed jealous of Tywin some of his crueler traits could have been honed at the start by emulating Tywin - Duskendale looks a lot like how Tywin dealt with Houses Reyne and Tarbeck. Maybe it made Aerys even more angry at how people seemed to "respect" Tywin for his brutality but were shocked and repulsed by his own. 

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

disagree there hes made his own decisions. 

Timeline does add up. During the beginning (Hornwood stuff) Roose was somewhere in the Riverlands, it was his defeat that pushed him further into the kingdom before Weasel Soup gave him Harrenhal. It's literally impossible for communication as not even Roose knew where hed be tomorrow. Later in the war Ramsay is in prison or masquerading as Reek, again it's impossible for communication. Was Reek supposed to ask Luwin for a raven to send to 123 Riverlands St?

2 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

yet he WAS agressive and was a scout or 2 away from winning the whole war!! Shit he still could have won it for robb had the battle went better.

There's no shame in defeat. War is filled with ups and downs. Yes, if Roose was the son of krypton he could have won Robbs war, but he wasn't and that's understandable.

2 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

yes he does , he specifialy spares the frey boys as roose ordered.

How would Roose even know of their wearabouts?

Ramsay is scary, a nutter and evil but hes not an idiot. In fact he's extremely shrewd and brave, able to play the field in real time or a few moves away.

2 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

nope its planned between the 3 and tywin is the prime mover. Tywin likely  reaches out through his sister  gemma frey to walder and walder reaches roose. It makes ths most sense 

No it's Walders baby.

Quote

"Walder Frey is a peevish old man who lives to fondle his young wife and brood over all the slights he's suffered. I have no doubt he hatched this ugly chicken, but he would never have dared such a thing without a promise of protection."

"I suppose you would have spared the boy and told Lord Frey you had no need of his allegiance?

 

3 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

hes not on the fence by that stage...jamies release is a death sentence for a man staying loyal ..he knows he wont have robb to awnser to at this stage

It was most definitely a rickety fence 

Quote

the Lord of the Dreadfort scolded. "In the north, we hold the laws of hospitality sacred still."

"I'm a captive here, not a guest. Your goat cut off my hand. if you think some prunes will make me overlook that, you're bloody well mistaken."

That took Roose Bolton aback. "Perhaps I am. Perhaps I ought to make a wedding gift of you to Edmure Tully... or strike your head off, as your sister did for Eddard Stark."

"I would not advise it. Casterly Rock has a long memory."

"A thousand leagues of mountain, sea, and bog lie between my walls and your rock. Lannister enmity means little to Bolton."

"Lannister friendship could mean much." Jaime thought he knew the game they were playing now. But does the wench know as well? He dare not look to see.

 

[The Wolves]

The greatest trick George R. R. Marin ever pulled was making the readers think characters like Tywin and Jaime deserves sympathy. 

[astarkchoice]

3 hours ago, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

The Reynes didn’t deserve to be slaughtered. Lord Reyen and Lady Tarbeck should’ve been imprisoned and the rest of their families should’ve been forced to pay their debts off. Maybe even execute Lord Reyne and Lady Tarbeck as punishments for insults and theft, but not exterminating both families

Its feudal times man sometimes families get exterminated!!  If people dont fear you may actualy kill them  all then you have lost it.

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

-Timeline does add up. During the beginning (Hornwood stuff) Roose was somewhere in the Riverlands, it was his defeat that pushed him further into the kingdom before Weasel Soup gave him Harrenhal. It's literally impossible for communication as not even Roose knew where hed be tomorrow. Later in the war Ramsay is in prison or masquerading as Reek, again it's impossible for communication. Was Reek supposed to ask Luwin for a raven to send to 123 Riverlands St?

There's no shame in defeat. War is filled with ups and downs. Yes, if Roose was the son of krypton he could have won Robbs war, but he wasn't and that's understandable.

How would Roose even know of their wearabouts?

Ramsay is scary, a nutter and evil but hes not an idiot. In fact he's extremely shrewd and brave, able to play the field in real time or a few moves away.

No it's Walders baby.

 

It was most definitely a rickety fence 

 

-he retreats from the green fork literaly to the twins then moat catilin  man (close by) and stays around there to marry walders granddaughter ..he has freys with him a lot of the time before vargo hands him harrenhall. As for ramsay  hes clearly in charge of the dreadfort clashing with manderlys over the hornwood landsbefore his 'controversial' solution , when captured hes then taken by theon and let loose to the dreadfort again......plenty of time for him and roose to swap ravens and roosw to instruct him the frey boys are there and they are to be spared!!

-if his men had marched aittle faster or ryeins scouts been a little sleepier or caught..he was supposedly only a mile away when caught!!! Grmm himself i believe has said it could have ended the war

-he went abck to the dreadfort to assemble men...plemty of time for ramsay to be told by roose

-fair enough

-id say the deal is sealed at this point hes just feeling jamie out a little to again see just  who hes allyingn with.....  and having some sport too.

[csuszka1948]

On 1/22/2023 at 12:59 AM, kissdbyfire said:

Tywin, Walder Frey, Roose Bolton, Janos Slynt, Cersei, Victarion & Aeron Greyjoy just to name a few. 

 

What has Aeron Greyjoy done that caused you to have zero sympathy for him? 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

21 hours ago, Castellan said:

still, as he is now he is so completely terrifying I can feel no sympathy just a great desire to kill him.

I even feel more sympathy for Biter than for Ramsay! Similar cases.

No sympathy for Janos Slynt he is the essential human crumb.

I mean Biter is a feral cannibal, but you can feel pity for him knowing that he's most certainely a simpleton with mental deficiencies who believes himself to be a dog, and that he was raised and turned into what he is by Rorge in a very horrific way. 

Ramsay doesn't have these excuses.

[csuszka1948]

On 1/22/2023 at 5:45 AM, Arthur Peres said:

Beyond the clear evils that were meant to be hated

Jaime and Stannis

 

 

 

I think Stannis is actually very relatable for many fans and nerds, that's one of the reasons he has such a fanbase.

He has been working hard and playing by the rules his whole life and because he is awkward socially, he never gets rewarded. Now, when the rules would apparently* favor him, everybody shits on them, so he decides to knock over the board. Even if he is entitled as fuck, how many of us wouldn't feel the same in his place?

 

*obviously this misses the fact that Stannis didn't prove his allegations and went back brooding to DS after Jon Arryn died, but I am telling this from Stannis POV 

Edited May 29, 2023 by csuszka1948

[kissdbyfire]

28 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

What has Aeron Greyjoy done that caused you to have zero sympathy for him? 

Was created by Martin and sprung onto the book pages, forcing me to read him/about him. 

[csuszka1948]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

Was created by Martin and sprung onto the book pages, forcing me to read him/about him. 

 

I understand.

That said, he is an abuse victim of Euron who tried to cope with religion. It's difficult not to sympathize with him. 

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, csuszka1948 said:

I understand.

That said, he is an abuse victim of Euron who tried to cope with religion. It's difficult not to sympathize with him. 

Speak for yourself, I find it incredibly easy. I can pity him and not sympathise w/ him. In fact, apart from Asha and at times Theon, I don’t have any sympathy for any of the Greyjoys.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

-he retreats from the green fork literaly to the twins then moat catilin  man (close by) and stays around there to marry walders granddaughter ..

Um, none of this happens. He never goes to MC or the Twins until the end of the war and the beginning of the Northern Theater. (He becomes engaged to Fat Walda around the time of his conversation with Jaime, so the prelude to the Northern Theater)

Roose retreats to random boulevard and Trident Lane, no real fixed address for a raven to find him at the start of the war.

Quote

Roose Bolton had re-formed the battered remnants of their other host at the mouth of the causeway. Ser Helman Tallhart and Walder Frey still held the Twins. Lord Tywin's army had crossed the Trident, and was making for Harrenhal. And there were two kings in the realm. Two kings, and no agreement.

The middle of the war is just shooting dice, telling ghost stories, making smores. Roose is still camping on random lane, waiting for his move. But still, no fixed address, just somewhere along the water.

Quote

"Harrenhal is close enough to the fords of the Trident so that Roose Bolton cannot bring the northern foot across to join with the Young Wolf's horse. Stark cannot march on King's Landing without taking Harrenhal first, and even with Bolton he is not strong enough to do that." Tyrion tried his most winning smile. "Meanwhile Father lives off the fat of the riverlands, while our uncle Stafford gathers fresh levies at the Rock."

...

"Robb's won his battles against worse odds," Edmure replied, "and I have a plan. You've forgotten Roose Bolton. Lord Tywin defeated him on the Green Fork, but failed to pursue. When Lord Tywin went to Harrenhal, Bolton took the ruby ford and the crossroads. He has ten thousand men. I've sent word to Helman Tallhart to join him with the garrison Robb left at the Twins—"

However at this time, even if Roose was somehow in communication with ravens his son was reeking in jail. 

2 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

he has freys with him a lot of the time before vargo hands him harrenhall

He always had Freys with him, then he was reinforced by more who immediately weaseled his ear. 

But Frey was always there, they were a pretty large part of Robbs army. Nowadays theyre everywhere too.

 

2 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

As for ramsay  hes clearly in charge of the dreadfort clashing with manderlys over the hornwood landsbefore his 'controversial' solution

Everything about this was Ramsay

Quote

The old knight was off east, trying to set to rights the trouble there. Roose Bolton's bastard had started it by seizing Lady Hornwood as she returned from the harvest feast, marrying her that very night even though he was young enough to be her son.

This is the work of a cowboy, not Machivelli.

Quote

"Stark's little wolflings are dead," said Ramsay, sloshing some more ale into his cup, "and they'll stay dead. Let them show their ugly faces, and my girls will rip those wolves of theirs to pieces. The sooner they turn up, the sooner I kill them again."

The elder Bolton sighed. "Again? Surely you misspeak. You never slew Lord Eddard's sons, those two sweet boys we loved so well. That was Theon Turncloak's work, remember? How many of our grudging friends do you imagine we'd retain if the truth were known? Only Lady Barbrey, whom you would turn into a pair of boots … inferior boots. Human skin is not as tough as cowhide and will not wear as well. By the king's decree you are now a Bolton. Try and act like one. Tales are told of you, Ramsay. I hear them everywhere. People fear you."

"Good."

"You are mistaken. It is not good. No tales were ever told of me. Do you think I would be sitting here if it were otherwise? Your amusements are your own, I will not chide you on that count, but you must be more discreet. A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule. Make it yours."

"Is this why you left Lady Dustin and your fat pig wife? So you could come down here and tell me to be quiet?"

"Not at all.

Roose is the type of guy who thinks writing letters and trading barbs with the Kingslayer is politics, Ramsay thinks it's fear.

Kidnapping a highborn lady, raping her, flaying her and torturing her so bad until she begs for her fingers to be ripped apart is not something Roose would order. It's hot, alarming and bound to cause pushback which Ramsay calls "good"

And honestly, when Ramsay asks for reprimanding Roose says "not at all" because he knows who butters his biscuit

2 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

his 'controversial' solution , when captured hes then taken by theon and let loose to the dreadfort again......plenty of time for him and roose to swap ravens and roosw to instruct him the frey boys are there and they are to be spared!!

How? From the Red Fort to the Winterfell cells?

And what does the letter say? Conquer fucking Winterfell? Ramsay fought Rodrik 10 to 1 and then had the gates opened up to him. You expect Roose to write this out? It's an insane plan, one that can only be thought of on the fly.

2 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

if his men had marched aittle faster or ryeins scouts been a little sleepier or caught..he was supposedly only a mile away when caught!!! Grmm himself i believe has said it could have ended the war

I dont think he did.

Roose took on Tywins full force and Gregor had some troubles in the battle actually. Tyrion almost died.

2 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

he went abck to the dreadfort to assemble men...plemty of time for ramsay to be told by roose

What time? The enemy was at Theons gate and if Ramsay didn't hurry Winterfell would be fully garrisoned in Stark hands

2 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

-id say the deal is sealed at this point hes just feeling jamie out a little to again see just  who hes allyingn with.....  and having some sport too.

If Jaime told him to suck a dick Roose would have snitched out the RW and arrested Ramsay on behalf of his king Robb.

But Jaime didn't, so Roose became warden of the north