Aerys II and Rhaegar’s fate was largely self-inflicted and completely deserved

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

I’m tired of seeing people condemning the Starks, Arryns, Tullys, and Baratheons for their marriage alliance. Accusing them of conspiring against the Targs. Even if they were, more power to them. Aerys in his best days was a vain, arrogant, and idiotic King who’s reign was largely successful due to Tywin Lannister. Then he got pissy about people acknowledging the fact that Tywin was really the one ruling.

Then the clustfuck of mental ineptitude happened at Duskendale and he got him self imprisoned for half a year because he tried to one up Tywin. And given how brainless a move it seemed, I imagine he said or did something to the Darklyns to trigger it. Then his downward spiral into madness began and he started burning people alive, and enjoyed it so much that he could only bring himself to rape his wife after burning someone. At this point, anyone who stayed loyal to someone like that is a sycophant or a monster. He violates his social contract as King.

Then comes Rhaegar. Seemingly the perfect Prince. Everyone loves him, smart, a true warrior, and seemingly a good future king. Was he involved in the theorized plot against Aerys? Perhaps. Or perhaps he had his own Pls. It matters not if he did, his stunt with Lyanna was so egregious and stupid it shattered any hope he had of escaping Aerys’ fate. Regardless of the truth of the matter, everyone thought Rhaegar kidnapped her, to do the only thing a man would kidnap a young woman for. So regardless of the truth the rest of Westeros thinks Rhaegar is a rapist like his father.

Brandon Stark, understandably incensed at his sister’s kidnapping, had every reason to be furious. He challenged Rhaegar to a legal duel, and instead Aerys imprisoned him. Summoned his father, and unjustly arrested him. When Rickard demanded a trial by combat, Aerys in his cruelty and cowardice had him burned alive and tortured Brandon to death. Violating his feudal contract with his lords again.

 

Aerys and Rhaegar have no one to blame but themselves for what happened, and the Starks, Martells, and every other house was victims of their cruelty and arrogance.

[kissdbyfire]

Agree.

As to Rhaegar, I’m very much on the ‘no judgment on Rhaegar until we know what really happened’. That said, there’s quite a few head scratchers in all of this. You say the realm thought he was a rapist etc, but did they really? We don’t hear anything about that at all apart from Robert and very few characters who repeat that. Even Ned, who alongside Howland Reed, is the person who probably knows the most about it all, never has a negative thought about Rhaegar. 
The other thing that doesn’t add up to me is that some times passes between R+L taking off and Rhaegar joining the fight. Once Aerys cruelly murders Rickard and Brandon, why doesn’t he come back? I mean, sure, they’re in the middle of nowhere and all that, but this seems like an event that is important enough for his friends to find a way to get word to him. And then he comes back and does the one thing he shouldn’t have. 
But we don’t have the details, so maybe some of this will change in time as we learn more. 
For now what I fault Rhaegar the most is not removing his batshit cruel nasty father. We hear he had plans to it, but he never did. I mean, as you said, Aerys is viciously and violently raping Rhaegar’s mother and burning people, what was he waiting for? 

[Craving Peaches]

19 minutes ago, King Robb of Winterfell said:

I’m tired of seeing people condemning the Starks, Arryns, Tullys, and Baratheons for their marriage alliance.

How DARE they marry into a house of equal social standing in a feudal setting! How dare they! 

[Craving Peaches]

21 minutes ago, King Robb of Winterfell said:

Accusing them of conspiring against the Targs. Even if they were, more power to them.

Yes. This is the bit that really makes me laugh. If the conspiracy did exist, so what? Targaryen rulership was clearly not working for people anymore and they wanted them to go. I don't blame them. Good riddance. The Targaryens should have been overthrown when their dragons died, realistically.

[Angel Eyes]

Well, there's a couple things.

My dislike of the marriage alliances is mainly due to the lack of attention paid to the compatibility of the couples. For instance, Robert and Lyanna was rather ill-suited; Lyanna made it abundantly clear she didn't approve of Robert's philandering behavior and Ned swept it under the rug. Note that Cersei was initially willing to marry Robert; Lyanna was already coming into the match with reluctance, she could have wound up like Cersei: more snake than man, twisted and evil. And then there's Jon and Lysa, where the fact that they were ill-suited caused all kinds of problems.

Rhaegar's conduct certainly leaves a lot to be desired with Lyanna, but also his tactical reasoning. Most people would have camped on the far bank of the Trident with the high ground and Rhaegar could have stopped Robert in his tracks, but he chose to engage him and was killed, leaving nobody standing between the rebels and King's Landing.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

4 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, there's a couple things.

My dislike of the marriage alliances is mainly due to the lack of attention paid to the compatibility of the couples. For instance, Robert and Lyanna was rather ill-suited; Lyanna made it abundantly clear she didn't approve of Robert's philandering behavior and Ned swept it under the rug. Note that Cersei was initially willing to marry Robert; Lyanna was already coming into the match with reluctance, she could have wound up like Cersei: more snake than man, twisted and evil. And then there's Jon and Lysa, where the fact that they were ill-suited caused all kinds of problems.

Rhaegar's conduct certainly leaves a lot to be desired with Lyanna, but also his tactical reasoning. Most people would have camped on the far bank of the Trident with the high ground and Rhaegar could have stopped Robert in his tracks, but he chose to engage him and was killed, leaving nobody standing between the rebels and King's Landing.

See I think Rhaegar probably would’ve been a good to great king. And he may have been a great warrior, but he seems like an absolute shit general.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

3 minutes ago, King Robb of Winterfell said:

See I think Rhaegar probably would’ve been a good to great king. And he may have been a great warrior, but he seems like an absolute shit general.

Or to be more accurate, he made bad decisions as a general because he was obsessed with prophecy and thought him being Jon’s father made him invincible in the battle, and that his victory was guaranteed.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, King Robb of Winterfell said:

as a general because he was obsessed with prophecy

I have the suspicion that his obsession with prophecy was veering on mad/deluded and that he was mad just in a different way...

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

I have the suspicion that his obsession with prophecy was veering on mad/deluded and that he was mad just in a different way...

Well see, I think he did actually have prophetic visions, and they will turn out true. But just because he was right, didn’t mean he was immune to consequences of bad decisions 

[Craving Peaches]

18 minutes ago, King Robb of Winterfell said:

Well see, I think he did actually have prophetic visions

I agree, but I also think he was madly obsessed but because he was more subtle than Aerys and everyone desperately wanted him to be better than Aerys it wasn't that noticed.

[Willam Stark]

1 hour ago, King Robb of Winterfell said:

Well see, I think he did actually have prophetic visions, and they will turn out true. But just because he was right, didn’t mean he was immune to consequences of bad decisions 

I don't think he had prophetic visions, but I think he was in touch with the Ghost of High Heart and it might have motivated his decision to flee with Lyanna.

[SeanF]

I’d say the rebels were about 51% justified.

Aerys had to go, but the rebellion was stained with atrocities, and Ned aside, they were not a great bunch of people.  Robert turned out to be a wretched king, whose negligence contributed to the next round of warfare.

It remains to be seen what prompted Rhaegar to act as he did.

[The Wolves]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I’d say the rebels were about 51% justified.

Aerys had to go, but the rebellion was stained with atrocities, and Ned aside, they were not a great bunch of people.  Robert turned out to be a wretched king, whose negligence contributed to the next round of warfare.

It remains to be seen what prompted Rhaegar to act as he did.

This!! I’ve been saying this for years. 
 

That rebellion was horrific. The sack of King’s Landing, Elia, and her children’s deaths, Tully burning his own people’s village, chasing a 8yr old and newborn, etc… 

 

Whatever Aerys and Rhaegar had done was NOTHING compared to what the rebels did.  
 

They had justification to protect themselves but claiming the throne was a step too far that they all paid with their lives in the end. 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

19 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

This!! I’ve been saying this for years. 
 

That rebellion was horrific. The sack of King’s Landing, Elia, and her children’s deaths, Tully burning his own people’s village, chasing a 8yr old and newborn, etc… 

 

Whatever Aerys and Rhaegar had done was NOTHING compared to what the rebels did.  
 

They had justification to protect themselves but claiming the throne was a step too far that they all paid with their lives in the end. 

The problem with monarchy is that in defending themselves, they pretty much had to overthrow the Targs. 

[Craving Peaches]

30 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

claiming the throne was a step too far

What else could they have done with regards to the throne though? If they left it to one of the Targaryens who wasn't Aerys or Rhaegar they are setting themselves up for an Isabella-Mortimer King Edward III situation. Should they have gone back to separate kingdoms instead?

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes. This is the bit that really makes me laugh. If the conspiracy did exist, so what? Targaryen rulership was clearly not working for people anymore and they wanted them to go. I don't blame them. Good riddance. The Targaryens should have been overthrown when their dragons died, realistically.

Even funnier when they praise Rhaegar for his plans to overthrow Aerys but backed out because he ran into a hot girl. Then everyone else had to take matters into their own hands, but they're demonized for it.

[StarkTullies]

55 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

That rebellion was horrific. The sack of King’s Landing, Elia, and her children’s deaths, Tully burning his own people’s village, chasing a 8yr old and newborn, etc… 

 

Whatever Aerys and Rhaegar had done was NOTHING compared to what the rebels did.  
 

They had justification to protect themselves but claiming the throne was a step too far that they all paid with their lives in the end. 

I agree with the sentiment of this post, but a few comments:

1) The Lannisters weren't really "rebels" but "opportunists".  They sat out the war and picked the winning side.

2) Aerys intended to burn all of Kings Landing, and the only reason he didn't is because a "rebel" stopped him.  Had Aerys not been stopped, he would have done far worse than anything the rebels did. 

3) Unlike the War of the Five Kings, the rebellion wasn't initiated because else wanted the throne, but because they were removing a tyrant.  Aerys had to go, but someone else had to take the throne after him.  Claiming the throne was never Robert's objective.

[Raven Princling]

The rebels were for the most part justified. Aerys was a mad tyrant and had to go. Rhaegar abducted a young noblewoman, and her family was rightfully upset. I have not formed a solid opinion on Rhaegar's actions yet, because the books have not revealed what actually happened yet. 

While their cause was justified and Targs had to be dethroned, there were many things they could have done differently. Well, I say they, but I focus mainly on Tywin and Elia.

1) Keep Elia as a hostage to secure Dorne's loyalty and obedience.

2) Betroth Rhaenys to the new King's firstborn son (who would eventually be born) to strengthen the claim.

3) Keep Aegon as a hostage for a bit and then send him to the Wall, stripping him of all his claims.

This is not a perfect solution, of course, and would open up many possibilities for plots and assassinations. But it's better than what Tywin did. And Robert's stubbornness did not help. Sidenote: I wrote these ideas, assuming Viserys and pregnant Rhaella still escaped.

[Lord Varys]

It is just a wet dream of some people in the fandom that there was a marriage alliance against the Targaryens. That just doesn't actually exist.

Aerys II sucked as king, to be sure, but Robert the Cuckold is nearly as bad. He and his buddies did nothing to stablize the Realm.

Worse, the entire new regime clearly doesn't believe in a prophecy revolving around the Others nor do they prepare for the War for the Dawn for some other reason. Not even Ned Stark.

So, no, the deposition of the Targaryens is most likely the worst thing that ever happened to Westeros. Just as the Conquest may have been the best thing.

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Aerys II sucked as king, to be sure, but Robert the Cuckold is nearly as bad. He and his buddies did nothing to stablized the Realm.

I think they did do some things, they had marriages to keep things stable and they tried to placate the Dornish. I don't think Robert and Aerys are really that comparable as Aerys was actively plotting the mass murderer of half a million innocents that he's supposed to protect.

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Worse, the entire new regime clearly doesn't believe in a prophecy revolving around the Others nor do they prepare for the War for the Dawn for some other reason. Not even Ned Stark.

We so far have no confirmation that Aegon's prophecy exists in the books and even if it did it wouldn't matter because the Targaryen ruling dynasty didn't care about it by that point either, and they weren't preparing for any war with the Others. Now Rhaegar may have been on to something but that was through independent reading not dear old dad.

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is just a wet dream of some people in the fandom that there was a marriage alliance against the Targaryens. That just doesn't actually exist.

Yeah.