HOTD Musings

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It seems as if George imagines - unrealistically, of course - that some gigantic partially man-made cave in a rock can actually look like a proper castle.

This might be an unpopular opinion, but if they can't make it the way GRRM imagines it, then I'd rather have it being a regular castle on a rock than some damp cave.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

Cregan Stark's and Jeyne Arryn's support for the Blacks was also lukewarm, as was Borros Baratheon's for the Greens. Most of the great houses, apart from those with relatives on the two Targaryen sides, or those who just needed an excuse to do their thing like the Red Kraken, weren't doing much until the late stage of the war...when most of the dragons were dead. I don't think you need to look for reasons beyond "don't really care about the Targaryen in fighting, don't want our armies to get burned by dragons".

That is not true to the same degree. Both Cregan and Jeyne raised an armies comprising of more than ten thousand men (Cregan might have send even more than 20,000 men if you also consider the Winter Wolves and the Manderly men that fought for Rhaenyra earlier).

It is also a misleading comparison as Tyland Lannister and Otto Hightower do sit on the Green Council at the very beginning of the war ... whereas Jeyne Arryn and Cregan Stark are in no way considered 'die-hard Blacks' at the beginning of the war.

As I laid out - the token support of the Lannisters is curious precisely because Tyland is where he is. We should expect a house with such strong ties to the king to show more support. That Borros didn't do much after the murder of Luke is not exactly surprising. Especially since Aemond was apparently in no rush to go through with his marriage. But then - even he should have moved his ass some more considering they were granting one his daughters a royal match.

And with the Hightowers my point was and remains that I'd like to see how Lady Sam's political leanings play out. It also not the case that the Hightowers are in any way prepared for war - three of Lord Ormund's own bannermen declare for Rhaenyra and it takes him a lot of effort to eventually reach a point where he and his army have the initiative in the Reach.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

This might be an unpopular opinion, but if they can't make it the way GRRM imagines it, then I'd rather have it being a regular castle on a rock than some damp cave.

Of course - I just meant that George imagining you can live in some cave the way you would in a proper castle is nonsense. And if the grand and habitable places were close enough to the outside that there are proper windows and the like ... then this big rock shouldn't even be remotely as impregnable as people believe it to be.

But the very fact that the inside of the Rock is supposed to be gigantic in size but pretty much like any other castle in other respects (aside from, most likely, the absence of windows) should mean it would be actually pretty easy to depict this on screen.

They would use CGI and models for the gigantic halls and such - but they would not necessarily need a lot of shots of those places. They could do a lot of dialogue in the relatively modest, say, council chamber of Casterly Rock. Or the lord's solar or bedchamber. Or even in godswood cave of the dungeons, etc. - places which would then be actual caves or more cave-like. Which would also not be that hard to depict.

I actually think the GoT guys were just lazy there. As they were with their ridiculous depiction of Valyria - which is also something George would likely want to retcon if a show were to ever depict the place again.

[$erPounce]

I think the appearance of Casterly Rock has already been retconned in House of the Dragon. How Jason Lannister describes Casterly Rock in episode 3 does not exactly match how the castle looks in Game of Thrones:

"The Rock is thrice the height of the Hightower in Oldtown, taller still than the Wall in the north. It's been said that if one were to stand in the tower, on a perfect day, one could see clear across the Sunset Sea."

Casterly Rock is not that tall in Game of Thrones, with the small castle perched atop a rock. For House of the Dragon, they specifically used the description of how Casterly Rock looks in the book canon.

 

I don't think George's blog post about Casterly Rock is specifically related to House of the Dragon. That same post mentioned that the castle can be taken by apes. Both Tyrion and Victarion are frequently associated with monkeys in ASOIAF. 

In an earlier blog post from 2020, George wrote:

"I am spending the days in Westeros with my pals Mel and Sam and Vic and Ty.    And that girl with no name, over there in Braavos."

Here it is said that Tyrion and Victarion are in Westeros. George begins another sentence for the POV who is still in Essos, Arya Stark.

[$erPounce]

I have the book of "Game of Thrones: House of the Dragon: Inside the Creation of a Targaryen Dynasty." I will post some of George's comments, for those who are interested:

After nearly a year of work on the Targaryen series by Game of Thrones writer-producer Bryan Cogman, among others, Martin reached out to screenwriter and producer Ryan J. Condal in September 2018 to pitch him on stepping in to take the reins of the drama. Martin was unhappy with the overall direction of the Dance of the Dragons successor series, and he felt Condal would be an ideal collaborator on the project. “Ryan is a really good writer, and he knows fantasy, and he knows my world, Westeros, not only from watching Game of Thrones but also from reading my books,” Martin says. “He was a strong showrunner, all of which made him a good candidate to take a run at the Dance of the Dragons.”

 

Having fleshed out the initial story beats with Martin, Condal wrote a formal outline for the pilot before moving on to script stage. Sitting down to write, he felt a tremendous weight of obligation, given his affinity for Martin’s work. “It would be like, if you loved baseball, having Derek Jeter teach you how to hit fastballs,” Condal says. “It was nerve-racking—like, OK, now I’m responsible for this thing, and I really have to deliver. That kept me up a little bit.”
But Condal learned to embrace his nerves and take his cues from the easygoing Martin when it came to translating the epic tale. “It was probably the most confident I had been to date as a writer,” Condal says. “I trusted myself and trusted him and listened to him. He said this really interesting thing that stuck with me: ‘The author will always forgive the adapter for the big changes that he makes or she makes, but not necessarily the small.’ I took that to mean, ‘Make the big changes that you need to make it work on the screen, but don’t change a bunch of little things because you think you know better.’ ”
By early 2019, Condal had finished the script and submitted it to HBO for approval. It had taken him only a matter of months, a relatively quick turnaround by Hollywood standards. “I wanted to strategically come in and announce myself as a showrunner who delivers things on time,” Condal says. “Game of Thrones is a very difficult tone and world to hit, and I knew I could do that, even if there was going to be a ton of development on the script, which there was. Still, I wanted to announce, ‘Hey, I’m here, I’m serious. I can write for this world.’ ”

 

“I thought it was a very strong draft to begin with,” Martin says. “I was very heartened. It was recognizably my story. When you’re looking at an adaptation of your own work, there’s always a little trepidation. You’re going to go through and see, has anything been changed? Did they eliminate anything that should be left in? Have they put in other things that were maybe not meant to be in there? Ryan made all the right choices.”

 

Explains Condal, “George was heavily involved at the very beginning of our pilot process, and then, once he felt like he knew the story we were telling, he could see where it was going, he really stepped back—but he would check in at key points.”

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

6 hours ago, $erPounce said:

I have the book of "Game of Thrones: House of the Dragon: Inside the Creation of a Targaryen Dynasty." I will post some of George's comments, for those who are interested:

After nearly a year of work on the Targaryen series by Game of Thrones writer-producer Bryan Cogman, among others, Martin reached out to screenwriter and producer Ryan J. Condal in September 2018 to pitch him on stepping in to take the reins of the drama. Martin was unhappy with the overall direction of the Dance of the Dragons successor series, and he felt Condal would be an ideal collaborator on the project. “Ryan is a really good writer, and he knows fantasy, and he knows my world, Westeros, not only from watching Game of Thrones but also from reading my books,” Martin says. “He was a strong showrunner, all of which made him a good candidate to take a run at the Dance of the Dragons.”

 

Having fleshed out the initial story beats with Martin, Condal wrote a formal outline for the pilot before moving on to script stage. Sitting down to write, he felt a tremendous weight of obligation, given his affinity for Martin’s work. “It would be like, if you loved baseball, having Derek Jeter teach you how to hit fastballs,” Condal says. “It was nerve-racking—like, OK, now I’m responsible for this thing, and I really have to deliver. That kept me up a little bit.”
But Condal learned to embrace his nerves and take his cues from the easygoing Martin when it came to translating the epic tale. “It was probably the most confident I had been to date as a writer,” Condal says. “I trusted myself and trusted him and listened to him. He said this really interesting thing that stuck with me: ‘The author will always forgive the adapter for the big changes that he makes or she makes, but not necessarily the small.’ I took that to mean, ‘Make the big changes that you need to make it work on the screen, but don’t change a bunch of little things because you think you know better.’ ”
By early 2019, Condal had finished the script and submitted it to HBO for approval. It had taken him only a matter of months, a relatively quick turnaround by Hollywood standards. “I wanted to strategically come in and announce myself as a showrunner who delivers things on time,” Condal says. “Game of Thrones is a very difficult tone and world to hit, and I knew I could do that, even if there was going to be a ton of development on the script, which there was. Still, I wanted to announce, ‘Hey, I’m here, I’m serious. I can write for this world.’ ”

 

“I thought it was a very strong draft to begin with,” Martin says. “I was very heartened. It was recognizably my story. When you’re looking at an adaptation of your own work, there’s always a little trepidation. You’re going to go through and see, has anything been changed? Did they eliminate anything that should be left in? Have they put in other things that were maybe not meant to be in there? Ryan made all the right choices.”

 

Explains Condal, “George was heavily involved at the very beginning of our pilot process, and then, once he felt like he knew the story we were telling, he could see where it was going, he really stepped back—but he would check in at key points.”

 

Interesting bit about small changes. I guess that helps explain why George was so fixated on Robert’s hunt in S1 of GOT haha.

I was under the impression that this was Condal’s first big hit. When he was announced as a showrunner, there was a lot of talk online about how his other projects had all flopped.

[SeanF]

The Villeneuve illustration for the interior of Casterly Rock resembles the Institute of Civil Engineers in London.  They could use that interior, or that of Freemasons’ Hall.

There are some beautiful castles in France and Eastern Europe that could have been used for Highgarden.

Edited February 12, 2023 by SeanF

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I was under the impression that this was Condal’s first big hit. When he was announced as a showrunner, there was a lot of talk online about how his other projects had all flopped.

At the very least, Condal seems to be a genuine fan of ASOIAF.

[Lord Varys]

17 hours ago, $erPounce said:

I think the appearance of Casterly Rock has already been retconned in House of the Dragon. How Jason Lannister describes Casterly Rock in episode 3 does not exactly match how the castle looks in Game of Thrones:

"The Rock is thrice the height of the Hightower in Oldtown, taller still than the Wall in the north. It's been said that if one were to stand in the tower, on a perfect day, one could see clear across the Sunset Sea."

Casterly Rock is not that tall in Game of Thrones, with the small castle perched atop a rock. For House of the Dragon, they specifically used the description of how Casterly Rock looks in the book canon.

Thanks! I actually had never properly progressed this description since it is the proper description of Casterly Rock and I really don't think much about GoT in general ... and even less about their 'version' of Casterly Rock.

17 hours ago, $erPounce said:

I don't think George's blog post about Casterly Rock is specifically related to House of the Dragon. That same post mentioned that the castle can be taken by apes. Both Tyrion and Victarion are frequently associated with monkeys in ASOIAF. 

In an earlier blog post from 2020, George wrote:

"I am spending the days in Westeros with my pals Mel and Sam and Vic and Ty.    And that girl with no name, over there in Braavos."

Here it is said that Tyrion and Victarion are in Westeros. George begins another sentence for the POV who is still in Essos, Arya Stark.

It would really surprise me if Arya was still in Braavos while both Tyrion and Victarion are in Westeros (that might work technically if both become dragonriders and fly to Westeros for some reason - but not with the armies, etc.).

The whole monkey thing goes back to Gibraltar.

I honestly don't think why anyone in the story should bother taking Casterly Rock? What could that gain them when the goal is the Iron Throne? It is at a geographical dead end, very much like the Vale.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

17 hours ago, $erPounce said:

I don't think George's blog post about Casterly Rock is specifically related to House of the Dragon. That same post mentioned that the castle can be taken by apes. Both Tyrion and Victarion are frequently associated with monkeys in ASOIAF. 

To be fair, I think that was a reference to GRRM visiting the Rock of Gibraltar and seeing a lot of apes there. He talked about it extensively in the blog post.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Ran]

11 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I was under the impression that this was Condal’s first big hit. When he was announced as a showrunner, there was a lot of talk online about how his other projects had all flopped.

Colony went three seasons. Would not consider that a flop. But yes, this is his first big hit. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

The Villeneuve illustration for the interior of Casterly Rock resembles the Institute of Civil Engineers in London.  They could use that interior, or that of Freemasons’ Hall.

There are some beautiful castles in France and Eastern Europe that could have been used for Highgarden.

I wish there was more artwork of the castles’ interiors. I personally have a hard time visualizing it, especially Harrenhal.

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I wish there was more artwork of the castles’ interiors. I personally have a hard time visualizing it, especially Harrenhal.

For me the silliness that's the Hall of the Hundred Hearths is rather easily imaginable - but that usually leads to some laughs then, so I rarely visualize it. The fun part is to imagine where the hell those hearths are supposed to be? In the walls? Or are there colums that also serve as chimneys? Is there a system to the placement of the hearths or are there random? And so on...

[Annara Snow]

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not true to the same degree. Both Cregan and Jeyne raised an armies comprising of more than ten thousand men (Cregan might have send even more than 20,000 men if you also consider the Winter Wolves and the Manderly men that fought for Rhaenyra earlier).

It is also a misleading comparison as Tyland Lannister and Otto Hightower do sit on the Green Council at the very beginning of the war ... whereas Jeyne Arryn and Cregan Stark are in no way considered 'die-hard Blacks' at the beginning of the war.

The Winter Wolves are old men who went south in order not to be a burden on the North's resources during the upcoming winter, so that's hardly a strong argument about Cregan's commitment to risking Northerners in the war. Conveniently, other than the Winter Wolves, neither he nor Jeyne Arryn seemed eager to send armies in the early stage of the war and where they could face dragons in the field. So if Jason's participation in the war was lukewarm, theirs was even more so. Cregan and his host of 8000 (I don't believe that Eustace's "20000 savage northmen!" was anything but a reflection of his tendency for exaggeration and melodrama combined with anti-Northern fears) only took part in the war in a later stage. Jason at that point had the excuse of being dead, while his widow was busy defending the Westerlands from the Ironborn.

"whereas Jeyne Arryn and Cregan Stark are in no way considered 'die-hard Blacks' at the beginning of the war."
So I guess you agree that they were lukewarm about it, and not really eager to send armies to potentially get burned by dragons. And all of them had to think of their own lands, too, in the face of potential dangers... such as the Ironborn attacking the Westerlands. Which they eventually did.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

52 minutes ago, Ran said:

Colony went three seasons. Would not consider that a flop. But yes, this is his first big hit. 

The only thing that worries me a bit now is Condal saying that there will be more humor in season 2. I thought the tone of the show was perfectly in line with F&B and was surprised that the lack of humour was such a big issue for many people. I just hope that it won't lead to the "marvelization" of HotD.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

The Winter Wolves are old men who went south in order not to be a burden on the North's resources during the upcoming winter, so that's hardly a strong argument about Cregan's commitment to risking Northerners in the war.

Sure enough, those men go to war to fight ... but they go to fight for Rhaenyra Targaryen because their liege lord, Cregan Stark, made a deal with Rhaenyra's son and heir.

4 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Conveniently, other than the Winter Wolves, neither he nor Jeyne Arryn seemed eager to send armies in the early stage of the war and where they could face dragons in the field.

They are not asked for men during the early stages in the war. Cregan makes it clear from the start that his support will come late(r) because his people have first to bring the last harvest in. But the men he can spare go to war immediately - those are the Winter Wolves and the men the Manderlys bring.

4 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

So if Jason's participation in the war was lukewarm, theirs was even more so.

Again, do address points that have been made and stop insisting your wishes are fact. Cregan Stark and Jeyne Arryn are neither kin to Otto/Alicent nor do they sit on the Green Council. The Lannisters have closer ties to Aegon II than either the Arryns (whose kinship to Rhaenyra is very distant) and the Starks to Rhaenyra. Yet this doesn't transfer to proper support in the war. Their support is lukewarm and their force is little more than a token force - a token force Lord Jason has to be commanded by the Prince Regent and the Hand of the King to provide.

4 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Cregan and his host of 8000 (I don't believe that Eustace's "20000 savage northmen!" was anything but a reflection of his tendency for exaggeration and melodrama combined with anti-Northern fears) only took part in the war in a later stage.

Even if you use conservative numbers, the total known number (2,000 Winter Wolves + 8,000 Northmen in Cregan's army) has the Starks outdo the Lannisters there. Add to that the 10,000 men Lady Jeyne assembled and you have the Lannisters outdone thrice over. Even more so, if you count the unknown number of White Harbor men that joined Rhaenyra at court in 130 AC.

And while Eustace may have been exaggerating, there could have been more men than just 8,000 in Cregan's army.

4 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

"whereas Jeyne Arryn and Cregan Stark are in no way considered 'die-hard Blacks' at the beginning of the war."
So I guess you agree that they were lukewarm about it, and not really eager to send armies to potentially get burned by dragons. And all of them had to think of their own lands, too, in the face of potential dangers... such as the Ironborn attacking the Westerlands. Which they eventually did.

No, I'm saying that the people Rhaenyra's envoy approached did deliver more men to her cause despite the fact that they weren't part of her party before Jace approached them than (apparent) core Green houses did. The Lannisters were part of team Green even before the war started, right? Yet their support is a joke.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I remember watching one of the BTS features where Emma D’Arcy was talking about Rhaenyra and motherhood. Emma clearly put a ton of thought into the psychology of the character, but even they seemed to struggle to understand why Rhaenyra would get pregnant six times if she was so afraid of childbirth and motherhood. They described it as Rhaenyra “creating her own tribe” where she could be accepted, but that sounds like hogwash to me. I think the showrunners just didn’t think it all the way through, the same way they didn’t think through Daemon’s ED.

One way it could have been amended was by showing Rhaenyra give birth to Jace, not Joffrey, and show her palpable relief when she made it through the birth without any trouble, unlike her mother. It could have been portrayed as her conquering her fears.

I think HOTD could have really benefitted from returning to the old HBO model of twelve-episode seasons. That being said, it probably wouldn’t have premiered until this year if they had.

[$erPounce]

5 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

The only thing that worries me a bit now is Condal saying that there will be more humor in season 2. I thought the tone of the show was perfectly in line with F&B and was surprised that the lack of humour was such a big issue for many people. I just hope that it won't lead to the "marvelization" of HotD.

I'm concerned about that, too.

The complaints about the lack of humor come mostly from casual fans who are used to the tone and general approach of Game of Thrones. Based on what I have read, that audience has trouble appreciating House of the Dragon because it is quite different from its predecessor in terms of how the story is told. 

HOTD also requires more effort to keep up with the story than was the case with GOT, in which there was frequent hand-holding. I find that many casual watchers struggle with following the HOTD show due to the timeskips, similar names of the characters and the more complex topics covered, among other things. There are also many within that audience who find the pacing too slow and want more action and shocking moments. The show is simply less accessible than its predecessor for the mass audience.

This explains why the most negative reviews for House of the Dragon often come from non-book readers who in the past have praised the later seasons of Game of Thrones to the heavens (e.g., the one reviewer at The Slant who considers episode S8E5 The Bells a masterpiece, but is absolutely not a fan of the first six episodes of HOTD that he has seen).

Showrunner Ryan Condal has apparently read the reviews and it looks like for future seasons he will take into account the criticisms reviewers gave. The problem is that casual fans of the Game of Thrones show have very different expectations and desires for House of The Dragon than ASOIAF book readers. It is very difficult to balance the interests of both audiences (which are often opposite of each other). I hope Ryan Condal will not overly aim for casual fans in the future. I don't want HOTD to move in the same direction as GOT.

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think HOTD could have really benefitted from returning to the old HBO model of twelve-episode seasons. That being said, it probably wouldn’t have premiered until this year if they had.

I agree that extra episodes in the first season would have really helped.  I understand why Ryan Condal wanted to end with The Dance over Shipbreaker Bay as a cliffhanger, but I've found that most of the problems I have with House of the Dragon have to do with the time constraints imposed by the showrunners anyway. A lot of events in the show could use more time.  Also, the secondary and tertiary characters would benefit from more screen time. Many filmed scenes were cut because of the runtime limitations per episode. All very unfortunate. A lot of potential was missed as a result.

[Annara Snow]

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure enough, those men go to war to fight ... but they go to fight for Rhaenyra Targaryen because their liege lord, Cregan Stark, made a deal with Rhaenyra's son and heir.

They are not asked for men during the early stages in the war. Cregan makes it clear from the start that his support will come late(r) because his people have first to bring the last harvest in. But the men he can spare go to war immediately - those are the Winter Wolves and the men the Manderlys bring.

Again, do address points that have been made and stop insisting your wishes are fact. Cregan Stark and Jeyne Arryn are neither kin to Otto/Alicent nor do they sit on the Green Council. The Lannisters have closer ties to Aegon II than either the Arryns (whose kinship to Rhaenyra is very distant) and the Starks to Rhaenyra. Yet this doesn't transfer to proper support in the war. Their support is lukewarm and their force is little more than a token force - a token force Lord Jason has to be commanded by the Prince Regent and the Hand of the King to provide.

Even if you use conservative numbers, the total known number (2,000 Winter Wolves + 8,000 Northmen in Cregan's army) has the Starks outdo the Lannisters there. Add to that the 10,000 men Lady Jeyne assembled and you have the Lannisters outdone thrice over. Even more so, if you count the unknown number of White Harbor men that joined Rhaenyra at court in 130 AC.

And while Eustace may have been exaggerating, there could have been more men than just 8,000 in Cregan's army.

No, I'm saying that the people Rhaenyra's envoy approached did deliver more men to her cause despite the fact that they weren't part of her party before Jace approached them than (apparent) core Green houses did. The Lannisters were part of team Green even before the war started, right? Yet their support is a joke.

Maybe listen to your own advice and stop trying to force a narrative because you want it to be true? 

"Arryns' kinship to Rhaenyra is very distant" LMAO Her mother was an Arryn. The Lannisters are not related to Aegon II at all.

Rhaenyra didn't need armies at the start of the war? Suuure. By the time Cregan and the Northmen - other than the old men who went south to die - finally joined the war, Jason was long dead and his widow busy fighting the Ironborn  if the Lannister support to Rhaenyra was a joke, then the Stark one was an even bigger joke. Cregan waited for almost all of the war before he marched south and finally got to King's Landing when everything was over anyway.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Annara Snow

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

15 hours ago, $erPounce said:

The complaints about the lack of humor come mostly from casual fans who are used to the tone and general approach of Game of Thrones. Based on what I have read, that audience has trouble appreciating House of the Dragon because it is quite different from its predecessor in terms of how the story is told. 

Almost every review I've seen mentioned how "almost militantly not fun" HotD was. I guess the complaints were so frequent that Condal decided to address it. Yeah, I don't know how to feel about it.