SeanF Posted February 7, 2023 Share Posted February 7, 2023 6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: There’s something else for the text-denying folks… If you think that Dany would have acted differently if she had been in Jon’s shoes - faced with letting them through and sending a rescue mission to not only save as many as she could but also to avoid them being wightified and joining the enemy - you clearly don’t understand the character you so blindly worship. Dany would have done much the same, for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted February 7, 2023 Share Posted February 7, 2023 On 2/4/2023 at 10:49 PM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said: Some talk farther down the forum are trashing the loyal steward of the Nights Watch, Bowen Marsh. The attacks are not fair. Marsh was not an ambitious man. He was not looking for political advancement or personal material gain. He and his Brothers assassinated Lord Commander Jon Snow because they had a duty to. Jon Snow put them all in danger. They needed to end his disastrous leadership before more damage is done. I found this very interesting debate on Reddit. I like what the user Feldman had to say. Check out what twitchedawake said on the second page of that discussion. The knife attack was not planned. It wasn’t a conspiracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rondo Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 On 2/4/2023 at 10:49 PM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said: Some talk farther down the forum are trashing the loyal steward of the Nights Watch, Bowen Marsh. The attacks are not fair. Marsh was not an ambitious man. He was not looking for political advancement or personal material gain. He and his Brothers assassinated Lord Commander Jon Snow because they had a duty to. Jon Snow put them all in danger. They needed to end his disastrous leadership before more damage is done. I found this very interesting debate on Reddit. I like what the user Feldman had to say. Feldman10 is presenting good points. If there was conspiracy against Jon the moment they chose was very bad timing. The best time to do the stabbings had already passed. Before Jon won the wildlings over. Bowen obeyed all of Jon's instructions but the raid on House Bolton was too much. The stabbings was a badly planned reaction to Jon's admissions of crime and the revelations of the pink letter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 Bowen was a dope, I said was as I'm sure Wun Wun has bashed his head in by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rondo Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 2 minutes ago, LongRider said: Bowen was a dope, I said was as I'm sure Wun Wun has bashed his head in by now. Wun Wun will be dead before he can do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 1 minute ago, Rondo said: Wun Wun will be dead before he can do that. Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 3 hours ago, Rondo said: Wun Wun will be dead before he can do that. You wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damsel in Distress Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 On 2/7/2023 at 12:04 AM, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said: Jon’s only crime was sending Mance to SAVE Arya. BUT Marsh had no idea that even happened. As far as he knew, Mance was dead and the psychotic Ramsay was throwing baseless accusations around. Marsh is indefensible. Period. Jon admitted it during the meeting. He practically confessed to the crime of ordering a man of the night's watch to take Lord Ramsay's wife away from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 4 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said: He practically confessed to the crime of ordering a man of the night's watch to take Lord Ramsay's wife away from him. Where in the books does it say that this is a crime? Also, he didn't order any man of the Watch to take Ramsay's wife away from him. Firstly, he sends Mance, a wildling deserter so not a man of the Watch, to go get Arya. Secondly, he only sends Mance to collect 'Arya' when she is out of Ramsay's clutches, so not really taking her away from him there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 2 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said: Jon admitted it during the meeting. He practically confessed to the crime of ordering a man of the night's watch to take Lord Ramsay's wife away from him. Where in the text does Jon “confess” to this? Please, show me where, I missed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 The claim that Jon “confessed” to sending Mance to rescue Arya is beyond ridiculous and requires a good dose of denialism. He’s done no such thing. No one knows about Mance. Everyone saw “Mance” die before their own eyes, it’s not something they heard about from some unreliable witness. Yes, Jon read the PL in the Shieldhall. A letter filled with the deranged claims and demands of someone no one trusts. The letter demands the NW surrender some of their guests but also people they don’t know and/or don’t know where they are. He says he’s captured Mance, but since they’ve all seen Mance die, that just reinforces the notion that the letter is a ‘skin o’ lies’ as far as those in the Shieldhall are concerned. Trying to force a claim or interpretation that has no backing in the text doesn’t work, because - guess what? - the text contradicts it easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkTullies Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 11 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: Secondly, he only sends Mance to collect 'Arya' when she is out of Ramsay's clutches, so not really taking her away from him there. Yep, this important detail is missing from every single one of these endless "Jon is the most evil person in the history of humankind because he loves his sister" threads. Jon didn't "steal" Arya (I'm using that term since it seems that most anti-Jon/pro-Ramsay posts also support Ramsay abusing his "property"). Arya had already escaped, to Jon's knowledge. All Jon did was passively allow Mance Rayder to bring her to safety. This was Melisandre's plan not Jon's, and Mance was Stannis's prisoner not Jon's. And of course, if Jon really had sent Mance to "take Arya away from her rightful husband", I would still have supported that 100%, but that's not what he did. Obviously, "Arya" hadn't really escaped, but Arya wasn't really Arya either. Sure, Jon could have exposed Melisandre's trickery, re-executed the real Mance Rayder right there, but would that have been wise? Wouldn't the exposure of the Mel's ruse have caused chaos and turmoil in the Watch, hence "destroying the Watch" and "dooming mankind", as every Stark seems to do whenever they take a breath? The fact that this... this: Jon helping an abuse/rape victim escape a murderous psychopath is constantly touted as the worst thing any character has ever done in a story packed with legitimate monsters is baffling. One on hand it is almost funny because this is just a fictional story, so whatever. But if people who obsessively hate Jon for this reason apply the same ideologies to real-life, then I have no words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 Just now, StarkTullies said: But if people who obsessively hate Jon for this reason apply the same ideologies to real-life, then I have no words. Some posts can't even apply their ideology in a uniform manner. The Tullys are supposedly mad because Catelyn went mad, but also no female Targaryen has ever gone mad, even though going by the standard to which Catelyn is judged, the above claim would be false because Helaena 'went mad'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 38 minutes ago, StarkTullies said: Jon helping an abuse/rape victim escape a murderous psychopath is constantly touted as the worst thing any character has ever done in a story packed with legitimate monsters is baffling. This. I don’t care if you’re a black brother or a KG, or what kind of vows you swore. If you know of anyone in the position fArya is and at the hands of someone like Ramsay, and you’re in a position to try to help and don’t, you’re the biggest PoS ever. End of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: you’re in a position to try to help and don’t, you’re the biggest PoS ever. End of. True that! Even Theon stepped up when he could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Stonehearts Simp Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 Anyone who actually thinks Jon was in the wrong is someone who’s opinion on ASOIAF just can’t be taken seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Arthurs Dawn Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 7 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said: Anyone who actually thinks Jon was in the wrong is someone who’s opinion on ASOIAF just can’t be taken seriously. The evolution of Bowen Marsh.. Bowen Marsh is misunderstood Bowen Marsh was right Bowen Marsh is a hero Bowen Marsh is Azor Ahai reborn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 16 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said: The evolution of Bowen Marsh.. Bowen Marsh is misunderstood Bowen Marsh was right Bowen Marsh is a hero Bowen Marsh is Azor Ahai reborn And the PtwP and the Last Hero! And I’m sure I’m forgetting many more of accomplishments! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Arthurs Dawn Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: And the PtwP and the Last Hero! And I’m sure I’m forgetting many more of accomplishments! Dany, Tyrion, and Bowen are the three heads of the dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Stonehearts Simp Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 Just now, Ser Arthurs Dawn said: Dany, Tyrion, and Bowen are the three heads of the dragon No silly. It’s Roose, Bowen, and Littlefinger. For stopping those nasty Starks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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