I don't understand the point of being so vehemently anti-Stark

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

Here is my honest question though : How could you even actually enjoy these books if you hate the Starks? Lol, like how did you even decide to continue reading past like 4-5 chapters? Like, in the first book, we have just 2 non-Stark PoVs...how did you even stay invested in the books if you hated them all? 

For example, I dislike the Greyjoys. If AGoT had been Balon, Theon, Asha, Victorian, Aeron, and Euron instead of Eddard, Catelyn, Arya, Sansa, Jon, and Bran (and I guess Daenerys and Tyrion stay the same); I would have not made it far into the books, lol. I would have had no compelling reason to read those books. 

Note : I like Theon now as of ADwD. And Victorian's storyline is...kind of compelling (better than Aeron or Asha). Asha's chapters post Stannis capture are interesting (since we have insight into Stannis's camp). God though, if I'd had to have Euron (horrifying) or Balon (I want to punch him) as a PoV. Good god. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Here is my honest question though : How could you even actually enjoy these books if you hate the Starks? Lol, like how did you even decide to continue reading past like 4-5 chapters? Like, in the first book, we have just 2 non-Stark PoVs...how did you even stay invested in the books if you hated them all? 

For example, I dislike the Greyjoys. If AGoT had been Balon, Theon, Asha, Victorian, Aeron, and Euron instead of Eddard, Catelyn, Arya, Sansa, Jon, and Bran (and I guess Daenerys and Tyrion stay the same); I would have not made it far into the books, lol. I would have had no compelling reason to read those books. 

Note : I like Theon now as of ADwD. And Victorian's storyline is...kind of compelling (better than Aeron or Asha). Asha's chapters post Stannis capture are interesting (since we have insight into Stannis's camp). God though, if I'd had to have Euron (horrifying) or Balon (I want to punch him) as a PoV. Good god. 

I suppose they’re cheering for the Lannisters, Ser Gregor and his men, the Freys, and the Boltons.

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Here is my honest question though : How could you even actually enjoy these books if you hate the Starks? Lol, like how did you even decide to continue reading past like 4-5 chapters? Like, in the first book, we have just 2 non-Stark PoVs...how did you even stay invested in the books if you hated them all? 

For example, I dislike the Greyjoys. If AGoT had been Balon, Theon, Asha, Victorian, Aeron, and Euron instead of Eddard, Catelyn, Arya, Sansa, Jon, and Bran (and I guess Daenerys and Tyrion stay the same); I would have not made it far into the books, lol. I would have had no compelling reason to read those books. 

Note : I like Theon now as of ADwD. And Victorian's storyline is...kind of compelling (better than Aeron or Asha). Asha's chapters post Stannis capture are interesting (since we have insight into Stannis's camp). God though, if I'd had to have Euron (horrifying) or Balon (I want to punch him) as a PoV. Good god. 

Maybe they’re the type of people who enjoy seeing bad things happen to good people. Sadly those type of humans do exist.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

32 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I suppose they’re cheering for the Lannisters, Ser Gregor and his men, the Freys, and the Boltons.

The Freys are barely in the first book. Roose is there, but he isn't characterized much. That leaves the Lannisters, but they are absent from many chapters. There is a lot of only Stark chapters, or no-Lannister chapters. Even when Lannisters are there, it's from a distance. Jaime is not ...a fleshed out character in book one. Cersei is there, but she's removed from our central frame, and seen through people's eyes who hate her. Tyrion is there, but it's just one of many PoVs. I just don't think I could keep reading a book if I disliked 6/8 PoVs and was rooting against them. Let's say the book with the most PoVs I dislike, AFfC, There are 12 PoVs. I dislike 4 of the PoVs as people (Victorian, Aeron, Asha, and Cersei), and I do enjoy Cersei's downfall and being in her mind (I guess this could be Eddard for them in the first book)...but that is only 4 of 12, and except Cersei, the other 3 only have a combined 5 chapters. In comparison, Jaime, Brienne, Samwell, Arya, and Sansa contribute 26 chapters (all are characters I like). It's just really hard to imagine reading a book in which I disliked the PoV of 6/8th of the chapters. 

A note : Without Brienne and Samwell there to offset Cersei, I don't think I would have enjoyed Cersei as much. I needed those good-hearted people there to make it so I wasn't overwhelmed by Cersei. But I did enjoy her PoV admittedly. So I guess I do enjoy a little bit having a PoV I dislike...but a whole book? Too much. 

[KingAerys_II]

Starks are great, I love reading about their history, they are at the same level of Targs, Brandon of the bloody blade, Brandon the Builder, Theon Stark, Cregan Stark, people that fought against giants, polar bears and wildings

[Alester Florent]

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Here is my honest question though : How could you even actually enjoy these books if you hate the Starks? Lol, like how did you even decide to continue reading past like 4-5 chapters? Like, in the first book, we have just 2 non-Stark PoVs...how did you even stay invested in the books if you hated them all?

I don't think they hated the Starks at first, when they read the books (if they even did). Rather, they are Dany stans who watched the show, are disappointed with the way it ended, and are taking it out on the characters they blame for ruining Dany's arc.

[Nevets]

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Here is my honest question though : How could you even actually enjoy these books if you hate the Starks? Lol, like how did you even decide to continue reading past like 4-5 chapters? Like, in the first book, we have just 2 non-Stark PoVs...how did you even stay invested in the books if you hated them all? 

For example, I dislike the Greyjoys. If AGoT had been Balon, Theon, Asha, Victorian, Aeron, and Euron instead of Eddard, Catelyn, Arya, Sansa, Jon, and Bran (and I guess Daenerys and Tyrion stay the same); I would have not made it far into the books, lol. I would have had no compelling reason to read those books. 

Note : I like Theon now as of ADwD. And Victorian's storyline is...kind of compelling (better than Aeron or Asha). Asha's chapters post Stannis capture are interesting (since we have insight into Stannis's camp). God though, if I'd had to have Euron (horrifying) or Balon (I want to punch him) as a PoV. Good god. 

The people who made the show didn't like the Starks much; it's clear they prefer the Lannisters and their attitudes towards life.  So I guess those attitudes may have rubbed off on readers who came to the books from the show.

Also, the Starks take a pretty good beating, especially in the second and third books, so there might be some enjoyment in that.  I guess some people are just so cynical they can't stand the thought of the good guys maybe coming out on top.

[KingAerys_II]

Show Daenerys is petulant and extremely entitled, I couldn't stand her too, but book Daenerys is different 

[KingAerys_II]

There are people that consider Targaryens colonialist, how could you colonize a continent with 3 individuals? 

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

On 7/22/2023 at 4:30 AM, Craving Peaches said:

I used to like Daenerys, then I became apathetic but now with all the stupid 'Daenerys the Messiah will destroy the Evil Starks' stuff I am really starting to dislike her. I don't hate Catelyn. As a person I think she has ups and downs, but I enjoyed her chapters especially in A Clash of Kings because Renly. It was not nice at all for her to say that to Jon, needlessly bitter and uncalled for. While I don't condone the killing of Jinglebell, I got the impression from reading the chapter that Catelyn had lost it by that point. I don't really consider Lady Stoneheart to be Catelyn.

A big part of what draws me to certain characters are their personalities and way of thinking. I absolutely love Catelyn as a character, and I love her POVs. But I totally get why a lot of people might not be fond of her.

Daenerys I like.. maybe because I feel obligated to? If that makes any sense. She is genuinely a good girl and has gone above and beyond for people in need. But I think she has one of the most boring personalities in the series, and that might be why I have zero connection with her. But I'm with you on her fans. It's gotten to the point where they defend and whitewash every decision she makes. It completely removes what few complexities she has been given by George. They're still throwing hissy fits over s8 of the show, when the Northerners didn't fall at her feet and support her, and they're absolutely convinced that everyone will support her in the books. And if they don't, she'll somehow manage to outsmart everyone who crosses her path.

[Jaenara Belarys]

5 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

They're still throwing hissy fits over s8 of the show, when the Northerners didn't fall at her feet and support her, and they're absolutely convinced that everyone will support her in the books. And if they don't, she'll somehow manage to outsmart everyone who crosses her path.

When I was watching that, I was throwing a hissy fit not because they didn't immediately worship her, I was pissed because they just seemed so damn arrogant and ungrateful for someone who lost a dragon and is committing a nice part of her army to come save your dumb ass. 

I've despised show northerners ever since. 

I wanted her to just tell Jon to fuck a duck and just defend the Neck. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

14 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I wanted her to just tell Jon to fuck a duck and just defend the Neck. 

Rolly Duckfield wasn't in the show, though.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

18 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

When I was watching that, I was throwing a hissy fit not because they didn't immediately worship her, I was pissed because they just seemed so damn arrogant and ungrateful for someone who lost a dragon and is committing a nice part of her army to come save your dumb ass. 

I've despised show northerners ever since. 

I wanted her to just tell Jon to fuck a duck and just defend the Neck. 

Except it's not that simple though, is it? Dany losing a dragon had nothing to do with the Northerners. And this would have been her fight regardless. She wasn't sacrificing any more than everyone else there was.

"I'm committing my army to saving you guys!" doesn't match up with the situation at all. Dany needed them just as much as they needed her dragons and army. Dany lacked the knowledge that was required to end the "NK" and the WW. The people who had that knowledge were in Winterfell. So I get being frustrated with the Northerners ungratefulness. Although I'm not so sure it was as much ungratefulness at it was anger and suspicion. Had their newly earned independence not been handed to Dany on a silver platter, perhaps she would have received a warmer welcome.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Ser Arthurs Dawn

[sifth]

I mean if nothing else, one of the fun aspects of A Song of Ice and Fire, is the fact that the villains actually stand a chance at winning. When I read other stories, I really never expect the villains to win any major victories. 

[Jaenara Belarys]

1 minute ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Rolly Duckfield wasn't in the show, though.

lmao, bro

[Jaenara Belarys]

3 hours ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

Except it's not that simple though, is it? Dany losing a dragon had nothing to do with the Northerners. And this would have been her fight regardless. She wasn't sacrificing any more than everyone else there was.

 

It very much does considering that Jon was saved by her, when she could've very well as just ignored the message and let a problem die.  It's her fight, but she doesn't have to fight it at Winterfell. 

3 hours ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

Although I'm not so sure it was as much ungratefulness at it was anger and suspicion. Had their newly earned independence not been handed to Dany on a silver platter, perhaps she would have received a warmer welcome.

Jon's the one who gave it away, Dany said IIRC that she would come and fight for the North (without a word in that conversation about the independence). Jon doesn't say a damn thing about "hey, I gave our independence away to Dany for saving my ass."

3 hours ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

"I'm committing my army to saving you guys!" doesn't match up with the situation at all. Dany needed them just as much as they needed her dragons and army.

Tbh, no, IMHO. Who has the dragonglass? Dany. Who has the dragons? Dany. Who has the massive army? Dany. It's probably a likely situation to sit at the Neck, with a bunch of troops, dragons and wildfire and just handle it there. 

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

It very much does considering that Jon was saved by her, when she could've very well as just ignored the message and let a problem die.  It's her fight, but she doesn't have to fight it at Winterfell. 

Jon's the one who gave it away, Dany said IIRC that she would come and fight for the North (without a word in that conversation about the independence). Jon doesn't say a damn thing about "hey, I gave our independence away to Dany for saving my ass."

Tbh, no, IMHO. Who has the dragonglass? Dany. Who has the dragons? Dany. Who has the massive army? Dany. It's probably a likely situation to sit at the Neck, with a bunch of troops, dragons and wildfire and just handle it there. 

In the Abomination, Northern independence meant simply that everyone must kneel to Sansa, but she doesn’t have to kneel to a ruler in Kings Landing.  I too found the Northerners’ bigotry hard to stomach.

The showrunners adored the Lannisters, and they seem to have disliked both Jon and Daenerys.

Edited October 25, 2023 by SeanF

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

7 hours ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

A big part of what draws me to certain characters are their personalities and way of thinking. I absolutely love Catelyn as a character, and I love her POVs. But I totally get why a lot of people might not be fond of her.

Wait, am I not the only Catelyn-stan on this forum! I also love Catelyn as a character.

On a depressing note, I watched a youtube video recently where they dissected Catelyn from a psychological perspective, and one thing the youtuber kept saying was how Catelyn always expects something bad to happen. What made me sad is the youtuber was clear that this is not normal. The reason I never thought of Catelyn being particularly morose or negative in this way is.....it's how I think. I always expect things to go wrong, and I never realized that isn't how EVERYONE thinks. It could explain why others don't like Catelyn so much, while I find her relatable and good hearted.

Also, I think if anyone bothered to listen to her advice, things would have gone better for them. A lot of fans focus on her few questionable decisions, and not on how many times she advised people to do things, that had they done those things, stuff would have gone better for them (not sending Theon is a huge one). 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

26 minutes ago, SeanF said:

In the Abomination, Northern independence meant simply that everyone must kneel to Sansa, but she doesn’t have to kneel to a ruler in Kings Landing.  I too found the Northerners’ bigotry hard to stomach.

Kneelers got to kneel, am I right? Their knees get itchy if they ain't kneeling all the time. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

5 hours ago, sifth said:

I mean if nothing else, one of the fun aspects of A Song of Ice and Fire, is the fact that the villains actually stand a chance at winning. When I read other stories, I really never expect the villains to win any major victories. 

Agreed. Although I do feel like in other fantasy books, I think the villains have a shot. Off the top of my head, Brandon Sanderson usually has villains who feel like they could win, Ursula K Le Guin's books villains tend to essentially be "big government" and feel unbeatable, and I feel like in the Expanse the villains do feel like they have a shot of messing things up. 

Just a note though, sometimes a product can go tooo far in the "villains have a shot" arc. The main media franchise that comes to mind is The Walking Dead. I always felt like the bad guys almost won too much, and I got bored of how they almost had to kill a main character off. It didn't feel natural like GRRM's writing at all. It was just killing people for shock value rather than because the narrative led to that happening. A lot of media franchises following Game of Thrones success did this though. It was like they thought the dying is what people loved, and not the excellent writing where consequences make sense for actions that have happened.