Did Jon Have a Say on Operation Arya Extraction?

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Okay... interesting ideas above, and I don't know the chapters well enough to refute them. It's something to look out for.

For the moment though, everything's just a lot simpler if Stannis doesn't know. His thirst for justice is satisfied, and Mel's agony serves a purpose too. How 'useful' the actual Rattleshirt appears I can't tell.

It's not a stable scenario, but Mance himself is mainly the loser by that. I'll put a question mark on it.

They're not just "ideas". We reread the Jon and Samwell chapters of aSoS and aDwD well enough that it becomes glaringly obvious: it is proven in the text on what Mel and Stannis and Mance say and do. They're like maester Coleman or Walder Frey revealing to Cat that Jon Arryn intended to foster Sweetrobin with Stannis at Dragonstone, or the pointers to Tyrion never betting against his brother Jaime, ...

Meanwhile you barely know the chapters well enough by your admittance, to debate the text, the scenes and chapters we're pointing at, but here you are calling our quotes and pointers "ideas". Sorry, but your "everything's just a lot simpler" is a poor way of admitting you can't be bothered to even reread the chapters. It's not that much to read: just 3 chapters

• aDwD, Jon 1: Jon counceling Stannis about Mance and Rattleshirt
• aDwD, Jon 4: Stannis' war room
• aDwD, Mel 1: the reveal

In relation to the OP. I'd like to point out that Mance (glamored as Rattleshirt) knelt to Stannis in the "burning chapter" (aDwD, Jon 3)

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

18 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I think she was using mad in like the British term not in the darn it way. But I agree that Stannis did seem a little peeved that the guy didn't burn to death which is kinda, not cool 

Yeah, I didn't like it either. Justice is one thing but wanting to continue to watch someone burn alive is another. 

 

18 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol close enough.

Yea for sure, but in that case Jon could play dumb, and act like he didn't suspect Stannis being in on it, which I don't think he actually does lol

Right, he could play dumb but idk if he would. Might not be honorable. Damn Starks & their damn honor LOL It gets them killed everytime! 

19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I mean, I agree with his decisions which is like a contrast to Dany who generally upset me in adwd but that's also because I want Danys govt to succeed where are as I want Jon's to lose.

Not that I want the Others to win or anything but I also don't want to see Jon stuck in this system that's clearly rigged for abuse and failure.

For sure, I know exactly what you mean. 

19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea for sure, is she controlling him like a marionette or a Gameboy? Or is it maybe like the ring of power and she's some type of drug

 

19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Melisandre spoke softly in a strange tongue. The ruby at her throat throbbed slowly, and Jon saw that the smaller stone on Rattleshirt's wrist was brightening and darkening as well. "So long as he wears the gem he is bound to me, blood and soul," the red priestess said. "This man will serve you faithfully. The flames do not lie, Lord Snow."

Something more than glamour for sure. Mel seems to think he is tied to her in some manner that doesn't allow him to betray the NW. Of course she could be wrong or lying. 

19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I mean to me it's just the laws of neutrality, and for sure words are wind if you wanna by cynical but asking a roomful of crows and wildlings to ride on Ramsay isn't neutral. 

(It's the obvious move and frankly the only correct move, something Yoren would probably do, but it's nevertheless the Wall marching on the 7 kingdoms)

I get it. Definitely not neutral but the only correct move in my opinion also. 

19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea exactly and while these customs and rules and regulations sound just as if not more so awful then the NW ones, the solution of abolishing Jons guilt isn't impossible, kill Ramsay lol. That should legally put Westeros back on the right track lol, well in this situation.

Agreed. As much as the abomination dissappointed me I would like to read about the Battle of the Bastards. I'd totally be down for Jon beating the crap out of him & Jeyne? feeding him to his dogs. Poetic justice. 

19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea exactly lol. They don't have the right tools for the job and are clearly overworked and undermanned. If they take the next season off of work the entire realm, possibly world, will come with stimulus' and government bail outs. Who knew CB only needed a union? Lol

 Union for the Nights Watch! 

19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea it's definitely a stretch to say Ramsay is legally wed, because that's not even Arya but at the same time it's kinda a stretch to say it's illigal because Theon acted as Ned's stand in and verified her id

Yeah I remember having a convo with someone a few years back about whether or not Sansa was legally wed to Tyrion. Similar situation I think but probably more legal in this case because it is actually Sansa, her parents are both dead, & she is a ward of the crown. However, the crown is held by deceit. Joffrey is not the true biological heir of Robert Baratheon BUT is kind of the legal heir of Robert Baratheon. Robert's will decreed Joff as his rightful heir but Ned changed it. Idk, such a twirly mess. Round & Round. I say screw the legality, screw the bad guys. 

19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Mel or Stannis if you'd like but I think it's just her, definitely commands some type of loyalty by saving his life and claiming to babysit his kid and gave him some like heroin/video game controller in the form of a ruby. So I agree the buck does stop there as well. 

That Mance like 20 years ago before Jon was born and another lifetime away, he swore some words to a man now dead that he'd follow the LC till he died, and then sometime later betrayed the entirety of that oath. So not super convincing lol. But theres also this

Right? None of this is black & white for sure. 

 

19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

So here Mance is spilling his guts to Jon and while Jon's playing it cool and like pretending to look at his phone or something, that was the time to be like " I don't want them" but by not declining the gift, it's now his. 

Of course the point can be made like Ramsay's legal wife Arya that this isn't legal at all because even if somebody verified their ID, they didn't notarize it.

Haha, yeah. It's no wonder people think we have secret Targ's everywhere with everyone lying about their identity. 

 

20 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol I like the way your thinking, but not even Cersei is that stupid. Stannis is repeatedly dodging ambushes and recruiting the locals like he has a tour guide, who is probably in the form and shape of Ned's bastard. That she was gonna think this no matter what is I suppose a coincidence 

For sure. Cersei thinks Jon is breaching his vows merely by allowing Stannis to stay at the wall so he's damned either way I suppose. 

[X-Buster]

Jon is Mance Rayder's lord commander.  What crime Mance committed on that mission was Jon's responsibility.  The wildlings are guilty of violating guest rights.  They killed Roose Bolton's people while sheltering under his protection and taking his food.  It is an absence of morality.

[GZ Bloodraven]

11 minutes ago, X-Buster said:

Jon is Mance Rayder's lord commander.  What crime Mance committed on that mission was Jon's responsibility.  The wildlings are guilty of violating guest rights.  They killed Roose Bolton's people while sheltering under his protection and taking his food.  It is an absence of morality.

Mance is the king of an independence movement. Jon is also technically the king of an independence movement. Stannis is also the head of an independence movement. None of these kings owe each other anything or are responsible to each other. 

The wildlings are known to have an absence of morality, but so are the Boltons, and so are the Starks, and so are the Targaryens. At least the wildlings don't have the concept of guest right: the Freys do. 

What is your point pleeeease say what you think and why you think what you think, we all are dying to actually engage with the ideas not the talking-points.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

52 minutes ago, X-Buster said:

Jon is Mance Rayder's lord commander.  What crime Mance committed on that mission was Jon's responsibility.  The wildlings are guilty of violating guest rights.  They killed Roose Bolton's people while sheltering under his protection and taking his food.  It is an absence of morality.

The LC is not punished for a crime a man of the night's watch commits. Otherwise Jeor would have been in trouble for Gared's dessertion. I don't think the wildlings believe in guest right but either way it's not an absence of morality to kill evil people but a presence of strong morality, IMO. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

Every bad thing that happened as a consequence of the Arya extraction operation was Jon’s fault. He could and should have executed Mance Rayder instead of sending him on a mission which violated all the laws at the Wall and Westeros. 

[Springwatch]

On 4/7/2023 at 10:45 AM, sweetsunray said:

They're not just "ideas". We reread the Jon and Samwell chapters of aSoS and aDwD well enough that it becomes glaringly obvious: it is proven in the text on what Mel and Stannis and Mance say and do. They're like maester Coleman or Walder Frey revealing to Cat that Jon Arryn intended to foster Sweetrobin with Stannis at Dragonstone, or the pointers to Tyrion never betting against his brother Jaime, ...

Ok. But I've not seen this.

On 4/7/2023 at 10:45 AM, sweetsunray said:

Meanwhile you barely know the chapters well enough by your admittance, to debate the text, the scenes and chapters we're pointing at, but here you are calling our quotes and pointers "ideas". Sorry, but your "everything's just a lot simpler" is a poor way of admitting you can't be bothered to even reread the chapters. It's not that much to read: just 3 chapters

• aDwD, Jon 1: Jon counceling Stannis about Mance and Rattleshirt
• aDwD, Jon 4: Stannis' war room
• aDwD, Mel 1: the reveal

In relation to the OP. I'd like to point out that Mance (glamored as Rattleshirt) knelt to Stannis in the "burning chapter" (aDwD, Jon 3)

You're pretty rude, you know? I made a point of your probably superior knowledge, and got a slap in return.

'Ideas' meant no insult to analysis I haven't seen; everything starts as an idea. But even if your ideas match up perfectly with GRRM's, there's still reason to be dissatisfied by 'Stannis knows'. First, Stannis, against character, lets Mance go unpunished. Also against character, he deals in lies and deceit. The reader is deceived too; the amount of misdirection would be insane. Last, if Mel's fakery at the burning is not aimed at Stannis, I don't know who it is aimed at. Not the queen's men - she owns them. Not Jon, either - he likes Mance, wants him spared. Mel is ready to tell him the truth anyway. Not the watchmen - they probably never want to see a brother burned alive, whatever the oathbreaking. Besides, Jon leads like a boss - if he's ok with sparing Mance, the men's approval is secondary.

Anyway, turns out my memory of the chapters is not so bad after all, the re-read didn't change anything. The issue is Stannis' gift of Rattleshirt, I guess. It's not a sticking point for me because it could easily be true that he did it at Mel's request, because she saw it in the flames. (She doesn't always need a motive, e.g letting Davos meet Edric, 'As she wished. As she saw.')

[sweetsunray]

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Ok. But I've not seen this.

My first reply to you was a direct quote, which you've ignored, and try to counter with your "idea" of who Stannis is. You dismiss text, because it does not fit your prejudice. So, not surprised whatsoever that after reading those chapters again, you still can't put two and two together. As for George deceiving the reader - what's new

So, we have the following, to drive it home to you
 

Quote

 

Jon knew better than to press the point. "Sire, some claim that you mean to grant lands and castles to Rattleshirt and the Magnar of Thenn."

"Who told you that?" (aDwD, Jon I)

 

Instead he ends up gifting "Rattleshirt" to Jon, but not the Magnar

Quote

"I would hope the truth would please you, Sire. Your men call Val a princess, but to the free folk she is only the sister of their king's dead wife. If you force her to marry a man she does not want, she is like to slit his throat on their wedding night. Even if she accepts her husband, that does not mean the wildlings will follow him, or you. The only man who can bind them to your cause is Mance Rayder."

"I know that," Stannis said, unhappily. "I have spent hours speaking with the man. He knows much and more of our true enemy, and there is cunning in him, I'll grant you. Even if he were to renounce his kingship, though, the man remains an oathbreaker. Suffer one deserter to live, and you encourage others to desert. No. Laws should be made of iron, not of pudding. Mance Rayder's life is forfeit by every law of the Seven Kingdoms."

"The law ends at the Wall, Your Grace. You could make good use of Mance."

"I mean to. I'll burn him, and the north will see how I deal with turncloaks and traitors. I have other men to lead the wildlings. And I have Rayder's son, do not forget. Once the father dies, his whelp will be the King-Beyond-the-Wall."

"Your Grace is mistaken." You know nothing, Jon Snow, Ygritte used to say, but he had learned. "The babe is no more a prince than Val is a princess. You do not become King-Beyond-the-Wall because your father was." (aDwD, Jon I)

Quote

"Our false king has a prickly manner," Melisandre told Jon Snow, "but he will not betray you. We hold his son, remember. And he owes you his very life."

"Me?" Snow sounded startled.

"Who else, my lord? Only his life's blood could pay for his crimes, your laws said, and Stannis Baratheon is not a man to go against the law … but as you said so sagely, the laws of men end at the Wall. " (aDwD, Melisandre I)

Quote

"As you wish. I have a gift for you, Lord Snow." The king waved a hand at Rattleshirt. "Him." [...] "Not me. I'm done with those bloody fools." Rattleshirt tapped the ruby on his wrist. "Ask your red witch, bastard."

Melisandre spoke softly in a strange tongue. The ruby at her throat throbbed slowly, and Jon saw that the smaller stone on Rattleshirt's wrist was brightening and darkening as well. "So long as he wears the gem he is bound to me, blood and soul," the red priestess said. "This man will serve you faithfully. The flames do not lie, Lord Snow." (aDwD, Jon IV)

Quote

Jon chose to ignore them. "Your Grace, might I know if the Umbers have declared for you?"

"Half of them, and only if I meet this Crowfood's price," said Stannis, in an irritated tone. "He wants Mance Rayder's skull for a drinking cup, and he wants a pardon for his brother, who has ridden south to join Bolton. Whoresbane, he's called." (aDwD, Jon IV)

As if Stannis doesn't know what Mel's ruby means and implies

As for Stannis not being someone who would go along with deceit: he's carrying a deceit on his hip since aCoK. He knows well enough that it's just a burned sword glamored to look fancy (and it has a giant ruby). Your understanding of Stannis is pretty shallow and seems to be aligned to the claims made about him in aGoT, than the man we've actually seen on page since aCoK.

[csuszka1948]

Yes, he had. 

Melisandre specifically approached him to tell him about the mission because she wanted to gain his trust. If he refused to go through with it, she wouldn't have done it.

The fact that Jon gave Mance 6 spearwives shows that he was prepared for the possibility that it will be an extraction mission - just not from Winterfell, but from Barowton, where the marriage was scheduled to take place - and wasn't certain that Melisandre was right about what she saw in the flames. 

"He glanced at the letter again. I will save your sister if I can. A surprisingly tender sentiment from Stannis, though undercut by that nal, brutal if I can and the addendum and nd a better match for her than Ramsay Snow. But what if Arya was not there to be saved? What if Lady Melisandre’s flames had told it true? Could his sister truly have escaped such captors? How would she do that? Arya was always quick and clever, but in the end she’s just a little girl, and Roose Bolton is not the sort who would be careless with a prize of such great worth."

[csuszka1948]

11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

As for Stannis not being someone who would go along with deceit: he's carrying a deceit on his hip since aCoK. He knows well enough that it's just a burned sword glamored to look fancy (and it has a giant ruby). Your understanding of Stannis is pretty shallow and seems to be aligned to the claims made about him in aGoT, than the man we've actually seen on page since aCoK.

Yes, Stannis obviously knows about Mance being alive, but I doubt he sanctioned this mission.

The fact that he still maintains a reputation of not being deceitful, and even people like Varys (and I guess also Roose Bolton) believe it is actually pretty interesting and something he will use to his advantage in the incoming battle.

[BalerionTheCat]

It was Melisandre plan. And Stannis prisoner. Jon had little authority on their plans. Jon could have more or less interfered. But it was not for him to "take sides". Of course Melisandre was doing it to convince Jon of her power. And to put him in debt. Which could possibly lead to a betrayal later. But not yet. And betrayal of what? Not serving the king of KL anyway. That is not the oaths.

[Springwatch]

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

My first reply to you was a direct quote, which you've ignored,

What quote? I don't see it. Just tell me.

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

and try to counter with your "idea" of who Stannis is.

Character-building is a major building-block of good writing. Most people would agree that GRRM has given Stannis a distinctive character. It's not just my imagination.

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

You dismiss text, because it does not fit your prejudice.

Excuse me while I fall about the floor laughing. How many quotes of Stannis and justice have you dismissed? There must be dozens of them. And I assume your rationale is the weakest, i.e. 'red herring', because what else is there?

I don't actually have a theory to bend the facts to. I take most of these events at face value.

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

So,  not surprised whatsoever that after reading those chapters again, you still can't put two and two together. As for George deceiving the reader - what's new

Stannis acting out of character would make for a crude and unfair deception.

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

So, we have the following, to drive it home to you

Giving castles to Rattleshirt and the Magnar sounds plausible. The wildlings will be looking to their old leaders - trying to replace them without the power to enforce it would be a recipe for conflict. Rattleshirt doesn't look great (to Stannis), but not much worse than other wildlings.

The revised plan gives Rattleshirt no castle at all, but makes him the direct responsibility of Jon Snow, aided by Mel's shackles. Maybe Stannis had a better idea of Rattleshirt by this time.

The next quote (below) - what I take from it is the sequence of statements:

Quote

 "I would hope the truth would please you, Sire. Your men call Val a princess, but to the free folk she is only the sister of their king's dead wife. If you force her to marry a man she does not want, she is like to slit his throat on their wedding night. Even if she accepts her husband, that does not mean the wildlings will follow him, or you. The only man who can bind them to your cause is Mance Rayder."

"I know that," Stannis said, unhappily. "I have spent hours speaking with the man. He knows much and more of our true enemy, and there is cunning in him, I'll grant you. Even if he were to renounce his kingship, though, the man remains an oathbreaker. Suffer one deserter to live, and you encourage others to desert. No. Laws should be made of iron, not of pudding. Mance Rayder's life is forfeit by every law of the Seven Kingdoms."

"The law ends at the Wall, Your Grace. You could make good use of Mance."

"I mean to. I'll burn him, and the north will see how I deal with turncloaks and traitors. I have other men to lead the wildlings. And I have Rayder's son, do not forget. Once the father dies, his whelp will be the King-Beyond-the-Wall."

Stannis hears that Mance could deliver wildling loyalty, and hears that the law ends at the Wall. It is after he has heard and understood all this that he goes on to state he will burn Mance.

Quote

"Our false king has a prickly manner," Melisandre told Jon Snow, "but he will not betray you. We hold his son, remember. And he owes you his very life."

"Me?" Snow sounded startled.

"Who else, my lord? Only his life's blood could pay for his crimes, your laws said, and Stannis Baratheon is not a man to go against the law … but as you said so sagely, the laws of men end at the Wall. " (aDwD, Melisandre I)

Ah, suddenly Melisandre becomes a reliable source, does she, even when she's manipulating a target? Melisandre the truth-teller, and Stannis the liar. Of course.

Quote

Jon chose to ignore them. "Your Grace, might I know if the Umbers have declared for you?"

"Half of them, and only if I meet this Crowfood's price," said Stannis, in an irritated tone. "He wants Mance Rayder's skull for a drinking cup, and he wants a pardon for his brother, who has ridden south to join Bolton. Whoresbane, he's called." (aDwD, Jon IV)

Skull for a drinking cup sounds like a figure of speech. If not, Stannis could just send him the skull, because he's killing Mance anyway, or refuse because it burned.

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

As if Stannis doesn't know what Mel's ruby means and implies

This applies to the gift of Rattleshirt scene? I don't know. Stannis doesn't feel enslaved by his own ruby.

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

As for Stannis not being someone who would go along with deceit: he's carrying a deceit on his hip since aCoK. He knows well enough that it's just a burned sword glamored to look fancy (and it has a giant ruby). Your understanding of Stannis is pretty shallow and seems to be aligned to the claims made about him in aGoT, than the man we've actually seen on page since aCoK.

Not at all the same. Stannis is a partial believer in R'hllor and his role as AA. This is shown in his talks with Davos, about the vision of a burning king, and Mel's vision of Stannis wielding Lightbringer against the dark. He finds these things hard to believe, but he can't deny them either. Same with Lightbringer. He has chosen to accept the destiny laid out for him by Mel, and the trappings that go with it.

He's not a deceiver though. Even at the Lightbringer ceremony, he makes no effort to act the hero or be anything he's not. He wears Lightbringer, uses it, shows it - but makes no claims about its magic properties. It's a shiny sword, he has it, that's it. He's very awkward about the whole AA thing - his scepticism shows.

This is very different to what you're proposing with the Mance deception. That Stannis would be a fluent liar and a great actor besides, and all for shits and giggles, because what did lying to Jon actually achieve? Nothing.

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

What quote? I don't see it. Just tell me.

It was a quote of Mel that I quoted to Hugorphonics and explained. Then you added your opinion, I replied referring to the quote I already had posted, and since then you're trying to make me out to be a liar about having quoted anything from text. And I listed all the relevant quotes, including Mel's confirmation that Stannis okayed saving Mance's life in my prior post.

 

 

[sweetsunray]

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Character-building is a major building-block of good writing. Most people would agree that GRRM has given Stannis a distinctive character. It's not just my imagination.

Good writing goes beyond "character-building". It includes character-growth. Remember Stannis' remark to Davos about the hawk - when one doesn't work, try a new one.

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

How many quotes of Stannis and justice have you dismissed?

I dismissed none. I pointed out that instead it goes deeper than that. Davos losing his fingers and yet being rewarded with knighthood and a keep is a famous example. And Jon gave Stannis a loophole, or rather an argument that Mel knew she could persuade Stannis with.

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Stannis acting out of character would make for a crude and unfair deception.

Your character perception of Stannis is superficial. Remember the "hawk". Speaking of unfair deceptions: how about Stannis preventing ships that came close to Dragonstone to sail further to and from KL, the year of 298: he was deceiving and preparing to rebel while Robert lived and Ned Stark arrived at KL. I guess that was "just" and "justice" too?

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Stannis doesn't feel enslaved by his own ruby.

Doesn't he? Initially he rails against people believing he would ever harm his brother's bastard that he fetched from SE. Several chapters later he is one order away from doing it, if Davos had not rescued the boy. In that time, he begins to look more gaunt than he already was (and he's not making shadow babies anymore). Notice also what Mel does when Jon reveals he's intent on sending Gilly away.

Quote

"Not for running tales. She's wanted for her teats, not for her tongue. I'll have more milk from her, and fewer messages."

"Castle Black needs no useless mouths," Jon agreed. "I am sending Gilly south on the next ship out of Eastwatch."

Melisandre touched the ruby at her neck. "Gilly is giving suck to Dalla's son as well as her own. It seems cruel of you to part our little prince from his milk brother, my lord." (aDwD, Jon I)

Mel is not just trying to provide an argument for Stannis to forbid Jon sending Gilly away with a baby. She is touching her ruby, and putting pressure onto Stannis.

But Jon reveals Gilly was not just Craster's wife, but his daughter too, and her son the product of this disgusting incest. It provokes an emotion of disgust by Stannis that overcomes any magical pressure Mel attempted to put on Stannis to copy her argument.

Stannis' ruby is also not directly on his skin, but a part of the fake Lightbringer.

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Skull for a drinking cup sounds like a figure of speech. If not, Stannis could just send him the skull, because he's killing Mance anyway, or refuse because it burned.

• It is not a figure of speech. The man blames Mance for his daughter being taken by raiders north of the Wall.
• The point is that Stannis is irritated by the demand of a skull of someone who's life he just saved
• Pity that despite just having reread all the necessary chapters and you claiming to not have that bad a memory of it, you just mistakenly argued "he's killing Mance anyway": the war room chapter comes AFTER the burning of Rattleshirt.

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Ah, suddenly Melisandre becomes a reliable source, does she, even when she's manipulating a target? Melisandre the truth-teller, and Stannis the liar. Of course.

Ah, so you agree at least that Mel is basically telling Jon that Stannis saved Mance on Jon's argument.

Mel is manipulative, and yes, fudges the truth where she needs, but she also will not make claims about Stannis (in her own darn POV) to  Jon, when she hopes to make both men allies, and these men talk, write and discuss tactics with one another.

[Springwatch]

10 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It was a quote of Mel that I quoted to Hugorphonics and explained. Then you added your opinion, I replied referring to the quote I already had posted, and since then you're trying to make me out to be a liar about having quoted anything from text. And I listed all the relevant quotes, including Mel's confirmation that Stannis okayed saving Mance's life in my prior post.

WTF????

Let's just draw a line and move on. I'll read the rest later.

 

[Lord Varys]

On 4/9/2023 at 3:18 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

It was Melisandre plan. And Stannis prisoner. Jon had little authority on their plans. Jon could have more or less interfered. But it was not for him to "take sides". Of course Melisandre was doing it to convince Jon of her power. And to put him in debt. Which could possibly lead to a betrayal later. But not yet. And betrayal of what? Not serving the king of KL anyway. That is not the oaths.

Just go back and read things. Mance is Jon's man when the plan is made. Jon can do with Mance whatever the hell he wants - unlike Val who remained Stannis' personal prisoner and who, as such, shouldn't have been sent out as an envoy by Jon. He knows that he would have to answer to Stannis for that if Stannis returned before Val did.

But Rattleshirt-Mance is Jon to do whatever he likes. He hands him to him and basically expects him to advise Jon on things. Which he does.

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Just go back and read things. Mance is Jon's man when the plan is made. Jon can do with Mance whatever the hell he wants

Rattleshirt yes. But Jon didn't want of him. Melisandre had to cancel the glamor. It doesn't seem even Stannis knew. It was all Melisandre control and push and cajolery. She controlled Mance because she had his son. No one else was in charge of this operation.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Rattleshirt yes. But Jon didn't want of him. Melisandre had to cancel the glamor. It doesn't seem even Stannis knew. It was all Melisandre control and push and cajolery. She controlled Mance because she had his son. No one else was in charge of this operation.

Stannis knew that Rattleshirt was Mance. Do you think the guy is stupid? He would never allow such a creature on his council if he didn't know it was Mance. Nor would he give him to Jon who loathes him if he didn't know it was Mance.

If Mel randomly told him to bother with that sucker he would ask if she had taken leave of her wits. Stannis talked to Mance, Mel talked to Mance, they both talked to Jon ... and Jon's argument about the laws ending at the Wall and stuff did convince Stannis. The king had to die but the man could live because he was useful.

And it is not just that Mance is handed to Jon by Stannis repeatedly - he also swears himself to Jon. He is his man now. There is no question about that.

Also, of course, there is little chance that Mel could pull off the burning of fake Mance without Stannis knowing. His own men are ensuring the real Rattleshirt doesn't talk too much. While it is possible that Mel would informally wield enough authority over the queen's men to get them to keep something from Stannis ... it is not very likely that they did that here.

Nothing in Mel's chapter indicates she fooled her savior there. And as I already said somewhere above: Mance and the women want to bring Theon and 'Arya' to Stannis in his camp. How could they do that if Stannis would immediately realize that 'Abel' is Mance? If Stannis didn't know it wouldn't really be an option for them to get to his camp.

[Hugorfonics]

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Stannis knew that Rattleshirt was Mance. Do you think the guy is stupid? He would never allow such a creature on his council if he didn't know it was Mance. Nor would he give him to Jon who loathes him if he didn't know it was Mance

The Lord of Bones is, well not a Lord like Lannister is, but he's more then a creature. He's like Tormund or the Weeper, able and popular among the freefolk.

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon's argument about the laws ending at the Wall and stuff did convince Stannis. The king had to die but the man could live because he was useful.

In music? What can the king of the wildlings bring now that "the king had to die"?

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nothing in Mel's chapter indicates she fooled her savior there.

No, but she did earlier with Edric and doesn't think about that either.

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Mance and the women want to bring Theon and 'Arya' to Stannis in his camp. How could they do that if Stannis would immediately realize that 'Abel' is Mance? If Stannis didn't know it wouldn't really be an option for them to get to his camp

I don't see why Mance has to personally appear before the king, if everything went to plan that is

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The Lord of Bones is, well not a Lord like Lannister is, but he's more then a creature. He's like Tormund or the Weeper, able and popular among the freefolk.

But Stannis doesn't give shit about that. And he would listen to Jon's expertise on this guy.

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

In music? What can the king of the wildlings bring now that "the king had to die"?

Information. That's why they keep him around.

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

No, but she did earlier with Edric and doesn't think about that either.

She does interact with Mance in her chapter, not with anybody connected to the Edric thing.

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I don't see why Mance has to personally appear before the king, if everything went to plan that is

Even if they could get around that (I don't see how), do you think Jon Snow wouldn't, you know, tell Stannis about Mance being alive? Confront him about lying to him and the world? It just makes no sense that Mel would even show Jon who Rattleshirt actually is if it was a secret she was keeping from Stannis.