The allegory of the Last Hero

[chrisdaw]

The Last Hero will be Arya. The snapping sword is needle. The dog is literally Sandor, he will be one of her companions and die along the way (he'll choose to follow/serve Arya over Sansa). The journey of the Last Hero is the vision Mel has of Arya (desolate land, hunted, north, dying/dead horse) which gets palmed off as being about Alys Karstark.

Probably she's running some kind of mission for Bran, or trying to find Bran, and that's how the COTF relate in and why it was detailed through Bran's chapters. Might tie into dragonglass/Valyrian steel, like her sword snapping is a lesson in the uselessness of regular steel against the Others, then her journey culminates in the COTF giving her dragonglass to arm Westeros with. There's been a long time and lot of words since the AGOT Bran chapters with Old Nan's telling of the story and likely GRRM's intentions have changed/evolved somewhat.

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"Needle wouldn't break," Arya said defiantly, but her voice betrayed her words.

[three-eyed monkey]

12 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

How much more is needed for this forging and what exactly is to be forged?  Surely not a real sword blade of any sort of steel?  Will Dawn light up? 

Yes a real sword must be forged, but in a special way. The purpose of legends like Lightbringer is to help readers understand what the characters must do to end the Long Night, while at the same time remaining vague enough to obscure how the characters must get there.

The secret is in the tempering of the blade. That's the part of the forging process that brings strength and flexibility to the steel. Iron is strong but inflexible and brittle and that's why it must be tempered. Remember, the Others hate iron.

Tempered is a play on words here because it also refers to a person's temperament. A well-tempered person is more flexible, more compromising. Compare this to Cersei. When you play the game of thrones you win or you die, there is no middle ground. A well-tempered person is not so quick to anger and slow to forgive, not so hot-blooded. The Others hate creatures with hot blood in their veins.

We know Azor Ahai had to temper his sword in the heart of Nissa Nissa to bring back the light. On the surface that sounds like he had to sacrifice the person he loved most, but in fact the only true sacrifice is self-sacrifice. You cannot sacrifice something you don't possess and the only life anyone truly possesses is their own. So while Azor Ahai had to do this terrible thing, the real sacrifice is that of Nissa Nissa who gave her life to save the realm. As Dany says, a true queen belongs not to herself but to her people.

Azor Ahai did pay a price, it cost him what he loves most in the world. I don't believe that Jon and Dany will have any romance though. No, the cost to Jon will be the things he values most. Honor and family. That's what it will cost Jon to play his part in saving the world. Dany will also have to forfeit her own goal, the Iron Throne, to save her realm. In story-telling this is often called want versus need. Characters have to sacrifice what they want in order to get what they need.

This brings us back to Bran I, AGoT. Ned executed an oathbreaker, while Jon and Bran watched. Ned is gone and so Jon will take the role of executioner, reluctantly for sure. Why is Dany an oathbreaker? Because every king or queen who puts their rights ahead of their duty to protect the realm are oathbreakers. It's reflected in how they style themselves. King of the First Men, etc... and protector of the realm. Rights first, duty last. They have the cart before the horse, as Stannis put it.

Now, Ned told Bran that a day would come when he would have to rule, and when it does he must not look away. Some people take this as foreshadowing King Bran, but that's not the case. GRRM likes to play with words, we know this. Ned means rule like a judge, as in decide or weigh. Ned said he would have to do it for his king or lord, not as a king or lord.

This is the role of the Greenseer in the process. We have already seen Bran witness the execution of a First Man in front of a heart tree by a woman with a bronze sickle. This was not a true sacrifice though, as the man was forced to his knees. It is the same with the lion Azor Ahai used to temper his blade the second time, the lion was captured and did not go willingly. Dany must sacrifice herself willingly. It must be a true sacrifice, and Dany must be pure of heart when she does it. She must be penitent or repentant for having done wrong. That's where Bran's third eye comes into it, because with two eyes he can see someone's face but with three he can know their heart, as Jojen put it.

Quick aside here to Serwyn of the Mirror-shield. How did he slay the dragon? By showing it it's reflection. Dany needs to look herself in the mirror and remember who she is, a good person essentially, who began with a goal of setting out to win back the throne and be a better ruler than the Usurper. A queen who belongs not to herself but to her people.

If Dany's heart is pure then Lightbringer will ignite, but it's really only a spark. An ember that will ignite the great furnace of the dawn. And the dawn will bring the touch of the sun the Others hate, driving them back as day drives back night.

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Is all the gods' thirst for suffering finally sated when Jon falls on a sword for the last time? 

Well, in my opinion there are no gods really. There's just magic, that different factions often attribute to their gods. The ruling will be made by the Greenseer, watching from the trees. These are the old gods watching over the realm, but they are people as we see with Bran and Bloodraven. People who are one in a million, if we use Bloodraven's math. The Greenseers are clearly connected to the Order of Green Men, who are said to keep their silent watch from the Isle of Faces, in the God's Eye. But god's eye is really a human eye, a human who can open their third eye and see the truth in people's hearts. This is a story about a human problem with a human solution, albeit couched in magic and fantasy.

The realm is already suffering, it bleeds every time the high lords play their game of thrones. The thirst is for the return of truth and an end to the suffering caused by the corruption of human hearts. That's why we have themes around true kings, true knights, and a true sword. It's truth that must be brought back to the realm, and truth is often symbolized by light. It's all very poetic if you ask me.

14 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

So I agree with the sentiment, but I'm not sure it represents the breadth of the stories we have here.

After all, I think this story gives us room to consider that the hero one day might be the villain the next. Or the villain to some might be the hero to Others. And the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Or as Virgil would say, the decent to hell is easy.

I agree with you. You can be a hero or a villain. It depends on the choices you make and the actions you take. We will see several characters faced with similar conflicts. A good example of this is probably Stannis and Jon, when it comes to winning thrones and/or saving the realm. Some characters, like Stannis in this case, will choose poorly and find destruction, while Jon will choose correctly and ultimately find salvation. That's the point of some of these supporting characters, they are showing us how not to do it, really.

And yes, it takes more than intentions, it takes actions. Words are wind.

15 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Let's say the last hero forged his blade in the heart of his beloved.

Let's say he defeated the White Walkers.

That's not what I'm saying though.

13 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

There's no need to forge "lightbringer". The swords already exist.

Yes, the original Lightbringer is Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star, Nissa Nissa. But it is the process of forging and in particular the tempering of the blade that is important so it must be done again. Ice will be Lightbringer this time. Reforged in the sacred temple, which is believe is the Isle of Faces, and tempered in the heart of a dragon to form dragonsteel.

13 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

And yes, the NK comes into this, but not as a "choice".

I disagree. The Night's King, a member of the Watch and sworn to protect the realm, made himself a king. He wed himself to the Others in many respects to achieve this. The Last Hero was a king, but he chose to play his part in protecting the realm instead, despite it costing him everything.

If anyone resembles the Night's King it is Euron. He's the one with ambitions to make himself a god-king when the apocalypse arrives. Again, like Stannis, he will fail because he's choosing the wrong path.

[Curled Finger]

@three-eyed monkey, OK, I am getting there.  Quick paraphrase to ensure I follow.  We are not talking an actual human sacrifice or death.  You see the people on the God's Eye judging events and actions primarily Jon and Dany as the metaphorical tempering of a literal sword to defeat the Others?  ( think this is where you lose me.) 

You keep going back to the bit about the Others hating the hot blood.  Are you insinuating the Others are agents of the God's Eye sent to correct humanity?  Get them back on track instead of annihilating everything?    

[three-eyed monkey]

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Quick paraphrase to ensure I follow.  We are not talking an actual human sacrifice or death. 

Yes, we are talking about real sacrifice and death, just as Nissa Nissa died when Azor Ahai put a sword through her heart. Only death can pay for life. This is bloodmagic we're talking about. There is power in kingsblood, but it is at it's most powerful if it is a true sacrifice, or self-sacrifice like that of Nissa Nissa.

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You see the people on the God's Eye judging events and actions primarily Jon and Dany as the metaphorical tempering of a literal sword to defeat the Others? 

Greenseers watching through the trees. The Order of the Green Men, who keep their silent watch, as Cat put it.

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In the south the last weirwoods had been cut down or burned out a thousand years ago, except on the Isle of Faces where the green men kept their silent watch.

The Green Man is a universal motif for Spring. Not gods as such, because we know greenseers like Bloodraven and Bran are men, although I suppose we could say they are men with godlike powers. This brings us back to the Pact, forged on the Isle of Faces after centuries of bloody war in Westeros between the children and men.

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Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.

"There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children's, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces.

 

So there's a few things here. Some will dispute this based on the accepted timeline, but the timeline is questionable and even has it's critics in the Citadel. GRRM is using the mists of time to veil the true timeline. We're talking about prehistory here, events that took place centuries or even millennia before the septons wrote it down.

The Last Hero was a chief (or king) and hero of the First Men. He supposedly went looking for the children in the hope that their magic could win back what the armies of men had lost. It was the armies of men and the wars they fought that brought the darkness of the Long Night on the bleeding realm.

I think the Last Hero found the children on the Isle of Faces. The greenseers and the wood dancers. There they forged the Pact. A peace agreement. This Pact was forged in the eyes of the Old Gods, which is why every tree was given a face, so that the greenseers, like Bran, could bear witness. Not gods really, just men with godlike powers of greensight.

The gods bore witness to the signing. This seems an odd choice of word for the First Men era. Was it a legal document signed by First Men and children? Was it written in runes on a rock, or perhaps on the bronze armor of House Royce? Maybe, but I feel it was not a signing the greenseers bore witness to but rather a forging. A pact can be forged, sure, but so can a sword. I think what was being witnessed was the forging of the Last Hero's dragonsteel sword, aka Lightbringer.

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Do you know the tale of the forging of Lightbringer? I shall tell it to you. It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero's blade, oh, like none that had ever been. And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires.

Because the story of Lightbringer is written in the ancient books of Asshai, it's easy to think that it must have been set in Essos and that the temple where Azor Ahai labored sleepless was the Red Temple or somewhere like that. But if the Last Hero and Azor Ahai are the same person then the temple should be a First Men temple.

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The sept tempted him no more than the brothel; his own gods kept their temples in the wild places, where the weirwoods spread their bone-white branches.

The temple in question is situated amongst weirwoods, like on the Isle of Faces. This was the temple of the Last Hero. The sacred fires are probably fueled with weirwood branches, as the trees are sacred.

So what the greenseers witnessed on the Isle of Faces was not the signing of a document but rather the forging of Lightbringer. This is what sealed the deal, and the result was the dragonsteel sword of the Last Hero that the Others could not stand against. This sword was Lightbringer. It was Dawn, forged from the heart of the fallen star Nissa Nissa.

The Order of Green Men were formed to watch over the Isle of Faces. There they keep their silent watch, but what are they watching for? If they are watching through the eyes of the trees, then it makes sense that they are watching for the same thing the faces were carved into the trees to see in the first place. To bear witness to the forging of another sword and another Pact.

But if Bloodraven is the last greenseer then no one is watching anymore. Greenseers have extended lives but they are not immortal. That's why Bran is important, he must take up that role and witness the forging. He must open his third eye and see the hearts of the people involved. If the sacrifice is true, and Dany is truly willing to sacrifice herself to save the realm, then the bloodmagic will work and the dawn will be brought back.

What this means for Bran is that he will travel from Bloodraven's cave to the Isle of Faces before the climax of the story. The route is already set up. Gorne's Way to Long Lake or possibly Winterfell. Then overland to the Neck. Then he just follows the same route Howland took, down the Green Fork to the God's Eye. After that it's the Heart of Winter 2.0 with Jon and Dany and a reforged Ice, transformed into a blade of dragonsteel when tempered in the heart of a dragon.

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You keep going back to the bit about the Others hating the hot blood.  Are you insinuating the Others are agents of the God's Eye sent to correct humanity?  Get them back on track instead of annihilating everything?    

Not exactly. I get into that in the other OP - The cold, hard truth of the Others - which is linked up in the first post of this thread. The Others hating hot blood, the touch of the sun, and all that is discussed there.

[sweetsunray]

17 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I disagree. The Night's King, a member of the Watch and sworn to protect the realm, made himself a king. He wed himself to the Others in many respects to achieve this. The Last Hero was a king, but he chose to play his part in protecting the realm instead, despite it costing him everything.

If anyone resembles the Night's King it is Euron. He's the one with ambitions to make himself a god-king when the apocalypse arrives. Again, like Stannis, he will fail because he's choosing the wrong path.

You misunderstood my use of choice: it was about Jon "not choosing" NK, not the NK himself.

There are three characters that take up part of the gauntlet of the NK: Craster, Stannis and Euron. Of these 3 only Craster actually worked as an ally by choice with the Others. Through Stannis and his "wives" we are given the phyiscal hints about the Others and their mother empress. Stannis is more of a corpse king while Mel is a Night's Queen. Of this pair, Mel is the more important one in relation to NK legend understanding, because she's a stand in for the mother of the Others. Euron very much wants to be like a NK, but he'll end up as patsy for the entity that he ties himself with: the spiritual hivemind entity in the drink shade of the evening (I dub her Shade), who needs a human heart infused with her and a whole lot of Undying Ones to be her echoing hivebrains. The sorceress queen that Aeron sees in his vision of Euron. Imo Aeron and the lashed priests will be turned into Undying Ones (what is dead may never die), and Euron will end up being the new beating corrupted human heart, in the new fortune telling shop in Oldtown for Shade. He gets to live long enough perhaps to try and lure Dany, for Shade wants her. Euron has the ambitions, and is being played hook-line and sinker by this entity.   

[sweetsunray]

On 3/23/2023 at 1:15 AM, Curled Finger said:

Is all this complicated warding a thing he does normally?

Not exactly (and I haven't read all of his prior work yet either). But @The Fattest Leech may know more readily of a "warding" scenario.

But in Skin Trade (about werewolves) bloodlines are important. You have this old pureblood family, but the latest heir (a real psycho) can't do the change. His father who pretty much owns all of the town is like Roose Bolton, and the son who can't work the change is a proto Ramsay. Lots of werewolves have been found murdered (police considers them human victims) all skinned. Two protagonists consist of a woman for whom the male protagonist has a thing (he's called Willie and she Randy, and they are like proto Jon-Val), and he's a "mutt" werewolf. They discover that the proto-Ramsay knows how to call up a magical entity called The Skinner. This entity is the one murdering werewolves and skinning their pelts. And when proto-Ramsay wears such a pelt, he can work the change. There is a scene where Willie ends up hurt and his blood drops onto a mirror, which the Skinner entity uses as portals to travel the dimensions: so Willie's blood drops onto the mirror and the mirror dissolves into a silver mist and the Skinner can be seen coming.

The Pink Letter and all the "skinning" stuff by Ramsay especially while Jon is a bastard and the assassination attempt on Jon's life basically are a reuse of that scene, and the Wall is the largest mirror on Planetos. This is the outside-world story info that is a foundation for the belief that Jon is not actually dead (Willie changes into his wolf because he's stronger then, and is being taken care of by a vet offpage) and that the 13th chapter of Jon's in aDwD is the moment when Others can try to come through the Wall.

But even though George reuses characters, plotlines, motifs, etc... he also adapts them so they fit into the new world he created, and apart from recycling he also adds and invents new stuff. From the Texan library aFfC drafts (before the decision to split the books) it's clear that George was still tinkering on the "magical" rules of the Wall: what is blocked, what is not. Does smell gets blocked for example? The ward/hostage wordplay parallel to a magical ward has been developed through his gardening imo. He knew imo that Brandon was a "mirror" of Jon in aGoT (where we get the Ashara Dayne red herring hints and some info on last hero and Brandon the Builder and description of WF). In aCoK he starts to develop the groundwork for the NK and corpse queen with Craster and Mel especially needing to be smuggled around the SE walls.

He knew he wants to get to the "blood on the mirror so the Skinner can gets through" scene, but how or why was something that developed imo over time. But by the time aFfC was finished he had it worked out, because that's when BR as raven gives us all the hints in Sam's first chapter pecking first at Sam's hand, drawing blood and then screaming "blood" when Jon talks about the power of brigand's blood. In aDwD he then also introduces us to BR's cave and it having a similar ward, and how powerful it is, because it doesn't require a physical wall at all to stop the wights or Others.

[three-eyed monkey]

21 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

You misunderstood my use of choice: it was about Jon "not choosing" NK, not the NK himself.

Sorry, I did misunderstand. Yes I agree that Jon will not choose to be a Night's King. As you pointed out we have seen Jon make such decisions before.

24 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

There are three characters that take up part of the gauntlet of the NK: Craster, Stannis and Euron. Of these 3 only Craster actually worked as an ally by choice with the Others. Through Stannis and his "wives" we are given the phyiscal hints about the Others and their mother empress. Stannis is more of a corpse king while Mel is a Night's Queen. Of this pair, Mel is the more important one in relation to NK legend understanding, because she's a stand in for the mother of the Others. Euron very much wants to be like a NK, but he'll end up as patsy for the entity that he ties himself with: the spiritual hivemind entity in the drink shade of the evening (I dub her Shade), who needs a human heart infused with her and a whole lot of Undying Ones to be her echoing hivebrains. The sorceress queen that Aeron sees in his vision of Euron. Imo Aeron and the lashed priests will be turned into Undying Ones (what is dead may never die), and Euron will end up being the new beating corrupted human heart, in the new fortune telling shop in Oldtown for Shade. He gets to live long enough perhaps to try and lure Dany, for Shade wants her. Euron has the ambitions, and is being played hook-line and sinker by this entity. 

This is an interesting take, but I'm always skeptical about other entities in this story, such as the Red God or the Great Other. The exception here is the Old Gods, but only because the entities involved here are essentially humans, like Bran or Bloodraven, so it remains a human story.

The way I see Euron is that he believes he has worked out the Azor Ahai legend but he's misunderstanding the point of the tale. He wants to be Azor Ahai, and he sees Dany as Nissa Nissa. He knows the world is about to be broken and remade. He believes that if he marries Dany, then when the Long Night comes he can sacrifice his beloved wife and bring the dawn, a dawn in which he will be a savior-king.

This is what I meant about choices. The characters of the story face similar dilemmas, we can see these conflicts as forks in the road. One path leads to salvation, the other to destruction. The hero needs to make the right choice, but GRRM will always show you another character, like Stannis or Euron, who chooses the other path so that we can see the consequence of the bad choice play out and see where the hero would have ended up if he had chosen differently.

[three-eyed monkey]

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You keep going back to the bit about the Others hating the hot blood.  Are you insinuating the Others are agents of the God's Eye sent to correct humanity?  Get them back on track instead of annihilating everything?    

I guess I should address this further as it is relevant.

I'm saying that the Others are agents of truth. We are told the cold preserves and fire consumes. So the Others preserve, while the dragon consumes. Unfortunately the truth can often be cold and hard. Some men, like Jon, would rather face a hard truth when most men would deny it. Most men means the realm. The truth is the realm of men is corrupt, and that corruption is destroying the realm, but most men would rather deny it.

When Qyburn is talking to Jaime about his infected stump, the maester and skilled healer says the corruption must be cut away. That's how you deal with corruption and prevent its spread if you want to preserve the rest of Jaime. If we apply this to the realm of men then something is needed to cut away the corruption. This is the role of the Others. They are the maester's knife, so to speak.

So what is the cause of the corruption of the realm of men? Dany is shown the answer in the House of the Undying.

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A long stone table filled this room. Above it floated a human heart, swollen and blue with corruption, yet still alive.

We have seen the realm represented in table form before. But it's a human heart that floats above it, swollen and corrupt. It is the corruption of the human heart that leads to the corruption of the realm. Yet the heart is still alive because there are still people, like Brienne or Davos to name but a couple, who have good hearts. There is a saying that truth is eternal, so it is the truth that is undying. The truth will always be the truth, it cannot die, but it can become lost.

Another point here is that Dany's heart beat in unison with the blue heart, connecting Dany's own heart to the Heart of Winter, which I believe was the moment Azor Ahai plunged his sword into Nissa Nissa's heart.

Sam raises a couple of related questions when he's talking to Jon about the Others.

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The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come. Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge by night . . . or else night falls when they emerge.

Do they come when it's cold or does it get cold when they come? If cold is a symbol of truth, then I would say it gets cold when they come. Because they bring the hard truth to the realm.

Does night fall when they emerge or do they emerge when night falls? If light is a symbol of truth, then I would say they emerge when night falls and the realm is in darkness, meaning the light of truth has been lost in the realm.

There's a major theme about truth running through the whole series, true kings and false kings, true knights and false knights, true swords and false swords, to mention some of the major strands of that theme. Right now, false kings, false knights and false swords are holding sway, and they are the ones bringing darkness to the realm and presenting false lights that can only lead the realm further into darkness. If the light of truth is to be returned to the realm then true kings, true knights and the true sword are needed if the truth is to dawn on the realm once again.

So I believe the Others are agents of a moral judgement on the realm, similar to a Judgement Day in a biblical context. However, there is a significant difference because the judgement is not by any god or gods but the greenseer, who is essentially human. It is Bran who will have to preside over the forging and tempering of the true sword, weigh the human hearts of the people involved, and rule on whether they are true. Basically, he'll have to decide whether there is enough good left in humanity to merit its preservation.

I don't think the greenseers created or control the Others, but they do, in conjunction with the Green Men, have the power to bring the rebirth of Spring, once mankind has proven it is ready to be reborn.

There's another big theme tying in here, and that is the theme of rebirth. Jon Snow was told to kill the boy and let the man be born. This coincides with the idea that the time of the children is coming to an end and now it is the time of men. The point here is that mankind needs to grow up.

[sweetsunray]

6 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Sorry, I did misunderstand. Yes I agree that Jon will not choose to be a Night's King. As you pointed out we have seen Jon make such decisions before.

This is an interesting take, but I'm always skeptical about other entities in this story, such as the Red God or the Great Other. The exception here is the Old Gods, but only because the entities involved here are essentially humans, like Bran or Bloodraven, so it remains a human story.

The way I see Euron is that he believes he has worked out the Azor Ahai legend but he's misunderstanding the point of the tale. He wants to be Azor Ahai, and he sees Dany as Nissa Nissa. He knows the world is about to be broken and remade. He believes that if he marries Dany, then when the Long Night comes he can sacrifice his beloved wife and bring the dawn, a dawn in which he will be a savior-king.

This is what I meant about choices. The characters of the story face similar dilemmas, we can see these conflicts as forks in the road. One path leads to salvation, the other to destruction. The hero needs to make the right choice, but GRRM will always show you another character, like Stannis or Euron, who chooses the other path so that we can see the consequence of the bad choice play out and see where the hero would have ended up if he had chosen differently.

I get being skeptical about "entities". Shade is not so much a god as a magical being, like the mother of the Others (corpse queen), a sorcerous creature, but who is not tied to her original body anymore (unlike the corpse queen). All that's left is the magical essence of being in the drink, which could be seen as her blood. The Undying Ones are infused with her, their brains are infused with her. And she only managed to do this because she developed and fed her telepathic powers for a thousands of years before she lost her physical body even before there were Saathi and Qaathi. Those who partake her, basically see her visions and hear her amplified voice. Without Undying Ones as hosts and heart she is weak and vulnerable. I see her more as the corpse queen's sister or aunt. And Euron's visions which Aeron also sees in glimpses (and communicates with Euron while having them under the influence) are sent by her. And yes, Euron believes he'll be a god... but tentacles growing out of his face is a hivemind image. And being a god in an Undying-fortune-telling-shop/trap is like being a genie with eeny tiny living space.

[Curled Finger]

@three-eyed monkey, thank you, I appreciate the expanded and laborious explanation.  I get it now.  I do have to zero in on that reforging of Ice comment.  You are putting OK & WW back together then and discarding the idea that LC is original Ice entirely? 

  

[three-eyed monkey]

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

@three-eyed monkey, thank you, I appreciate the expanded and laborious explanation.  I get it now.  I do have to zero in on that reforging of Ice comment.  You are putting OK & WW back together then and discarding the idea that LC is original Ice entirely?

Thanks. I'm happy to drill into any part of it. If GRRM is a good story-teller, and I believe he's one of the best, then the story, as complicated as it is, should all fit together neatly, with the themes and character-arcs and plot all tying together at the climax of the story, which I believe will be the Heart of Winter, the moment Lightbringer ignites and sparks the dawn.

I've mentioned the several themes around truth. One of these is the theme of the true sword. This has only been touched upon in the novels but it was set up in D&E, and will be expanded in the next book as Aegon emerges. The point was made when the sword Daemon II raised at Whitewalls was not Blackfyre. The idea is that the true king must hold the true sword, Blackfyre, the sword of Aegon the Conqueror. This is from a Targaryen perspective and that's the perspective that has seeped into Westeros since the dragons ruled, but the point has relevance to the wider story. The true king must have the true sword, if he is to do what true kings do and defend the realm.

Azor Ahai tried three times to make his sword, but the first two attempts yielded false swords that broke. The third was the true sword, made by true sacrifice, through a heart that was true. I believe this sword is Dawn, pale as milkglass, forged thousands of years ago from the heart of a fallen star, and held ever since by a worthy or true knight with the title Sword of the Morning, etc.

So now we have two "true" swords. One the sword of the Dragon-king who conquered the realm. One the sword of the hero who saved the realm, or more accurately tempered with the life and blood of the true hero who made a true sacrifice to save the realm. One sword is black and the other is white, but the truth is somewhere in between. The truth is not black but rather grey, dark as smoke like Ice.

Blackfyre is not the true sword because it is the sword of a conqueror, a false king who puts his right to the throne ahead of everything else. Dawn was the true sword once but as Mel says, it will take more than swords to save the realm, because it is the bloodmagic ritual of tempering the blade that will bring the dawn. (I'm not saying Mel knows that, just that GRRM drops clues like this.) So unless dawn is smelted and reforged and tempered again, then it is not the true sword.

The sword that will be smelted and reforged is Ice. As readers we want that closure, because what Tywin did with Ice rubbed salt into the wounds of what happened with Ned, and conflicts with what Ned did with Dawn. So Jon will have a choice between the black sword of House Targaryen, at a stage when he will have learned who his parents really are, or the white sword of the hero who saved the world, but Jon will instead choose to put Ned's sword back together again.

As for Longclaw, I feel Jon will do the honorable thing and return it to a member of House Mormont, as Ned had done with Dawn. My guess is that Jorah will probably end up on the Wall in a reformed Night's Watch when all is said and done.

[BalerionTheCat]

On 3/24/2023 at 2:37 AM, three-eyed monkey said:

It was the armies of men and the wars they fought that brought the darkness of the Long Night on the bleeding realm.

On 3/24/2023 at 1:18 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

So I believe the Others are agents of a moral judgement on the realm, similar to a Judgement Day in a biblical context.

I agree. ASOIAF is full of wars and atrocities, fuelled by the greed of would be kings and lesser men. While others are pleading the gods for mercy or retribution. While everyone speaks of sins before the gods. But nothing happens. The gods are impotent or don't care. Except maybe for the previous Long Night. Maybe for the Doom of Valyria.

I don't like the idea of another mother fucker war defeating the Others. It would mean the one with the biggest army always win. Even Ramsay could be the Hero. The Last Hero was the last. The realms, by the score, gone to the Others. I don't think one hero, with a dragonsteel sword (BTW the Children don't use steel), could defeat the Others. Asshai is a huge city, bigger than Volantis, Qarth, King's Landing, and Oldtown together. They had the fused stone magic, probably plenty of dragons. And yet, their empire was destroyed.

The Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men. Azor Ahai lead the virtuous into battle. IMO, the Hero fought the wicked men. He changed side to the Others. Otherwise, they would have killed everyone indiscriminately.

[Nadden]

On 3/22/2023 at 3:20 AM, three-eyed monkey said:

The Horse.

Let’s begin with the horse. We are told the Last Hero’s horse died. And what is his horse? We need only ask Jaime.

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"Your word of honor?" Ser Brynden raised an eyebrow. "Do you even know what honor is?"

A horse.

I’m seeing lots of parallels in the first two chapters with TLH. (Horses, dogs, companions, broken sword) One of the thing I’ve been trying to symbolically puzzle out is the symbolism of horses. In AGOT Prologue and Bran I Gared, an oathbreaker, is described as ragged and greasy. He is bound hand and feet to a Wall. He’s is taken to the center of a square to be beheaded.

In metallurgy, a drag is used in casting to form for the lower portion of a mold. “Gared” backwards is a homophone for “drag”. A drag is filled with sand and a sword can be pressed into it to make an impression. The sand is mixed with oil so it maintain the shape of the impression. The sand with that negative impression can be said to be ragged by definition. Thus and inverse impression in the sand can be said to be in a square holdfast with ragged and greasy sand.
 

And the inverse of oathbreaker, Gared, is oathkeeper. Oathbreaker would be the negative impression of Oathkeeper.

Ice, is made up of both Oathkeeper and Widows Wail. And Gared is indirectly compared to the height of Ice. Ice is about six feet long. But was wide across as a man’s hand. Horses and Time also use hands to measure them.
 

Also, Gared was dragged to the ironwood stump by Fat Tom a homophone for “fathom” which is six feet; and Desmond, wordplay for “mond” “Des” or Mondays or Moon day, and point in time. The breath of man and horse had just mingled before they cut Gared down from the Wall.

Gared was beheaded and a horse had to be restrained to keep from bolting. Bran was told to keep his horse well in hand.

And finally, the last command given to Gared was to guard the horses and he was dragged two guardsmen. And the breath of man and horse mingled.

Honor and Oathkeeper seem to be both words of honor. And Ice is a sword of honor. ….connection?

[Nadden]

On 3/22/2023 at 3:20 AM, three-eyed monkey said:

What this suggests to me is that the Last Hero’s companions, who died one by one, did not die at the hands of the Others but rather by the hands of each other, just as Euron killed Balon or Stannis killed Renly. As Maester Aemon said:

Waymar, a last hero parallel, also fought himself. He had been standing in front of a black obsidian mirror.

[Nadden]

On 3/22/2023 at 3:20 AM, three-eyed monkey said:

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Maester Luwin had taught him his stars as a boy in Winterfell; he had learned the names of the twelve houses of heaven and the rulers of each;

The dozen companions were twelve rulers of ancient houses. In the context of the time the tale was set, the rulers of the ancient houses were kings in the hundred kingdoms of the First Men.

Another clue to this comes from a conversation between Anguy and Lem.

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Well, here's to His Grace," Anguy the Archer called out cheerfully, lifting a toast. "Seven save the king!"

"All twelve o' them," Lem Lemoncloak muttered.

The dozen companions were twelve rulers of ancient houses, kings of the kingdoms of First Men, who all died, one by one. The fact that they are described as companions suggests that they were counterparts or peers of the Last Hero, meaning that he too must have been a king.

In summary, the Others came, the kings died one-by-one. Then the last hero lost his honor. Next, he lost his ability to tell a lie from the truth. And finally, he broke his oath.

In a previous post, I related Gared to a drag component of a casting mold. 
 

Here I’d like to present the wordplay to a cope, the other half of a casting mold, and a horse. Combining “horse” and “cope” we get horscope. Horscope contains the 12 ancient house of our universe in the zodiac signs.

During Gared’s  execution there were 20 in all. Eight surrounded by twelve. Like the solar system.

Like Gared’s life outlined by his 12 vows. He pledged his life and his honor. Gared’s life (drag component); Horse is honor ( cope component)

[Rondo]

On 3/22/2023 at 7:25 AM, three-eyed monkey said:

I agree. But I believe the Last Hero and Azor Ahai are the same person, the one who forged the dragonsteel sword known as Lightbringer. The Prince that was Promised is someone else.

We will have to disagree on this.  I believe Azor Ahai is Daenerys Targaryen.  Lightbringer and Dragons belong in her storyline.  The glass candles are the Lightbringers.  The dragons are something new in the game and it could finally tip the balance to the Light and the Good against the Darkness.

Careful. Prophecy will bite your prick off. There's more to it than the conclusion Aemon reached. When GRRM spoon-feeds such a conclusion to the reader, we should be cautious, especially when the revelation comes too early in the story.

Ah but that warning goes in both directions.  Whose prick already got bit?  Jon Snow's on the matter of Arya and Ramsay.  And his tiny got bit all the way off.  

On 3/22/2023 at 7:25 AM, three-eyed monkey said:

Bran will be the conduit between the children and Jon. Weirwood to Ghost, as has already been set up.

Bran in my opinion is the dark wizard hidden behind the curtain of evil.  He surely will try to manipulate people to make his bastard half-dead brother acceptable.  

On 3/22/2023 at 7:25 AM, three-eyed monkey said:

The way I see it Jon will have a choice of paths. On one hand he could become the Night's King or on the other hand he could become the Last Hero. The difference is that the Night's King made himself a king when darkness filled the earth, while the Last Hero gave up his kingdom to save the realm and bring back the light. I believe Jon will choose the latter.

Maybe, but Westeros is not Jon's kingdom.  I suppose you could argue that the North is his.  But that is a debatable claim.  Bran was the one who came looking for the 3 eyed crow and the children.  It is Bran who will choose.  He can obey Bloodraven's plan for him.  I don't think he will.  

[kissdbyfire]

On 3/22/2023 at 8:25 AM, three-eyed monkey said:

The difference is that the Night's King made himself a king when darkness filled the earth,

I don’t understand this, TEM… The NK was the 13th LC, so at least several decades removed from the LN and  pre-NW times. 

[three-eyed monkey]

6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t understand this, TEM… The NK was the 13th LC, so at least several decades removed from the LN and  pre-NW times. 

Yes, we're told that the Night's King was the 13th lord commander and when he made himself king he reigned for 13 years. It's hard to know how factual this is as the old histories are difficult to verify. The stories may well be factual but I think there's a lot of symbolism at play here too, like the use of 13 as a bad omen, in a western sense at least. Much like the Last Hero and his dozen companions make 13.

I believe Old Nan's tales contain a deeper narrative that even she is not aware of. One that we as readers are meant to work out. This applies to the Last Hero, the Others, and the Night's King.

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As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories,

To begin with the set up to the story is very much in the mood of darkness gathering, shadows growing, cold winds rising. All very reminiscent of the Long Night.

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the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear."

Why was knowing no fear a fault in him? Why must all men know fear? I would say because that's the only time a man can be brave. That was the fault in him. He was not able to be brave, and courage is required sometimes when choosing to do the right thing, because that's not always easy.

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A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

Maybe this is just a love story that gets freaky fast, but I think giving his seed means giving his children, just as Craster did.

Quote

After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others,

This certainly fits that interpretation. And it's in retrospect, meaning this point should be inserted earlier in the story. So at some stage the Night's King started making blood sacrifices to the Others. But what did he gain for his part of the bargain?

Quote

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen,

Again we get the notion of being wed to the Others, and the result of the marriage was that he made himself a king. Binding his sworn brothers with strange sorceries could be skinchanging, he was probably a Stark, but I think it's more likely that they were wights, because I think that ties in more with the idea of getting something in return for the blood sacrifices he made.

We're also told he ruled for thirteen years.

Quote

Night's King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. And it's getting dark.

It was the night that his his to rule, so potentially that's a night that lasted 13 years. To end we have - And it's getting dark. I feel this alludes to the coming Long Night, the mood of gathering darkness that led into the tale in the first place. The mood that literally brackets the tale.

Whether we take this tale literally or not, I feel that there is a distinct contrast between the Last Hero and the Night's King, even if we only consider it symbolic. The Last Hero was a king, just like his dozen companions. He was the 13th king in that respect, but he gave up his kingship to save the kingdom and he became a hero. The Night's King was the 13th Lord Commander of the Watch, sworn to protect the realm, but he gave up defending the realm to make himself a king, and became a villain.

I think Jon will have a choice to make between saving the realm or winning the throne, and the outcome of both options is reflected in the tales of the Last Hero and the Night's King respectively.

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 3/22/2023 at 1:02 PM, Curled Finger said:

Another thing that caught my eye reading through, and it is a very good read, should have mentioned that in the 1st post, is an old idea that Bran was already the Last Hero.  Again, I have to credit @Lost Melnibonean with that idea.  Geez, he sure has influenced my thinking a lot.  Not to take anything away from the OP, but to add perhaps dimension to this conversation, the old idea went something along the lines that Bran has already encountered most of his companions.  He's lost Osha and Rickon and the Liddle, I think.  Jojen doesn't look long for the world (of course this is the guy who helped developed Jojen Paste).  Summer appears to have joined another pack.  Perhaps he will be kind enough to drop the archived piece in here as the explanation is much better than I can do it justice.  The point in conjunction with this Last Hero conversation is that the story may not be epic in the way we understand it to be.  Bran's companions all appear to be Northern whereas like the OP, I do expect the original hero companions were from all over the entire realm.  We understand TLH's companions to have died where we see Bran's companions have not all died but gone elsewhere for...reasons.  The OP proposes TLH and his companions were kings where on the surface no one in Bran's tale is a king--yet.   TLH is a very complicated tale not to be diminished by it's simplified telling.  You have to understand that going in as the OP has done in uncovering some lovely arcane connections.  

I didn't throw Bran in here to muddy waters.  As stated, he's only brought in to add dimension to the existing conversation which is fascinating.  I'm not arguing Bran over Jon or the identity of TLH vs AA vs TPTWP.  The OP wants Jon and I can fly with that conversationally.  My interest lies far more in the hero companions and their swords than in the identity of TLH.  Jon's got a sword.  One down, 10 to go.  (Brienne has a sword, too.)

 

[Curled Finger]

4 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

 

You are still tops in my book!  Thanks, I'm going to revisit this great read again!