Fandom Phases

[LongRider]

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

I'm no psychoanalyst, but I think Tate might be compensating for something...

More like a garden variety misogynist with too much money, drugs and followers on social media.  

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, LongRider said:

More like a garden variety misogynist with too much money, drugs and followers on social media.  

If you’ve ever read The Stand, by Steven King, Harold Lauder is the perfect description of an incel, long before incels were a thing.  Now, incels can form online communities.

They have this fantasy of past ages, where beautiful women were mens’ chattels, and they could do anything they liked with them, not understanding that such societies, however sexist, were riddled with restrictions and taboos that governed male behaviour.

The perfect example of such a taboo is in an episode of The Sopranos where Richie Aprile threatens to kill Christopher, on learning he hit his girlfriend, Richie’s niece.

”The day she takes your surname is the day you can raise your hand to her.  Then, it’s none of my business”

Edited April 2, 2023 by SeanF

[LongRider]

@SeanF I've read The Stand a couple of times but don't remember Harold, but I have poor memory retention on books, so there's that.  

8 minutes ago, SeanF said:

”The day she takes your surname is the day you can raise your hand to her.  Then, it’s none of my business”

I remember that scene.  Many in the States still think that way.  ugh

[SeanF]

9 minutes ago, LongRider said:

@SeanF I've read The Stand a couple of times but don't remember Harold, but I have poor memory retention on books, so there's that.  

I remember that scene.  Many in the States still think that way.  ugh

Horrid, yet even Richie would despise Andrew Tate.

I remember a conversation I had with my father about the racism scandal at Yorkshire County Cricket Club, where Asian players and staff were routinely called Pakis, Wogs, told they stank etc. 

He was 80 at the time, and I was 53.  He said “I’m sure younger people don’t talk like that.”  Then it occurred to me that the people doing this were all about 20 years younger than me.

[kissdbyfire]

20 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If you’ve ever read The Stand, by Steven King, Harold Lauder is the perfect description of an incel, long before incels were a thing.  Now, incels can form online communities.

They have this fantasy of past ages, where beautiful women were mens’ chattels, and they could do anything they liked with them, not understanding that such societies, however sexist, were riddled with restrictions and taboos that governed male behaviour.

Maybe I should feel sorry for these men but I don’t. I read a tweet from one of these idiotic incels saying something along the lines of, “beat your woman every now and then; it doesn’t matter if you don’t know why you’re doing it, she will”. 
All incels should get a wildling woman. Just saying. 

20 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The perfect example of such a taboo is in an episode of The Sopranos where Richie Aprile threatens to kill Christopher, on learning he hit his girlfriend, Richie’s niece.

”The day she takes your surname is the day you can raise your hand to her.  Then, it’s none of my business”

UGH

11 minutes ago, LongRider said:

@SeanF I've read The Stand a couple of times but don't remember Harold, but I have poor memory retention on books, so there's that.  

I remember that scene.  Many on planet Earth still think that way.  ugh

FTFY. 

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

I do find it quite blackly funny, how some fans (consciously or not) adopt not so much medieval attitudes towards sex (which were in some ways, fairly open-minded) as late Victorian/Edwardian attitudes towards sex, when discussing the characters.

So, a woman who actually enjoys sex, with .... a man she is not married to ... is treated as "fallen", "a temptress", "a corrupter", along with more coarse terms.  Added to that, is the fact Dany is at least slightly bisexual.  It's also claimed that she enjoyed anal sex with Daario, at which point, the outrage goes off the scale.

As against that, Sansa is pure, as a maid.  Although, there's also a fairly widespread view that she needs to apologise to Tyrion, for refusing to consummate her marriage to him (as a twelve year old captive ought to have done).

In fanfic, the rape of Sansa is quite a common plot element, because it's both shocking, and it enables Sansa to escape guilt, at having had sex.  The rape of Daenerys is rare, on the other hand, because how could a whore be a victim of rape?

And yet, I can sort of understand it.  It was only in the early nineties, that it became accepted, in fantasy writing, for a woman to have sex with anybody other than her husband.  And romantic fiction was using the rape of the heroine, as a plot device, well before that, and it's still a fairly popular trope to this day.

I just watched a bio on Paramore.  Apparently some big hit they had included lyric in which the singer calls her rival a whore then has all this guilt.  The song becomes this monster hit, she refuses to play it after a while then brings it back and apologizes to the audience saying it is a song about misogyny.  I understood it in the way it was presented and women can be that guy all the time.  She was 18 when she wrote the song.  She grew up.  It's not difficult to discern the younger from older members of our community here.  

I remember people wanting Sansa to apologize to Tyrion because he'd been kind to her and she bailed on him when he needed her most but not the other.  Likewise I remember when rape was the only way an unmarried woman was allowed to have sex in books.  Ugly that, too bad it lasted so long.  I'm not sure when it happened, I think as a young person during the time, AIDS forced everyone to discuss sex beyond the dirty joke and stereotype.  When Starsky's (Paul Glasser) wife and child died of it we knew something was very wrong with the stories on the news.  He was a married sex symbol.  He was cool.  This was bogus.   No one should have to die for sex with anyone or because they did.  Bogus.  So yah, the early 90s sounds about right.  

I think my favorite thing now versus then and now really does begin when GOT ended is how tainted so many of the show first folk can be.  These folks who come introduced extraneously have a distinctly different texture to them than book first posters.  Our younger readers in general don't seem to like any or much of the old ways.  No, they don't get Hoster even a little bit, think Jon Arryn is a pedophile for marrying Lysa and deem Jaehaerys I a total bastard for his fathering of Saera after she showed her royal ass.  Blows my mind.  I think this stuff is rich and layered and delicious and they are outraged.  I wonder if these flourishes really detract from their experience or they are just having fun bitching?  I don't go to reddit because the one time I did go there they seemed to be raving lunatics.  Is this normal, all this moralizing over fictional characters presented as background or historical characters?   

[SeanF]

28 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I just watched a bio on Paramore.  Apparently some big hit they had included lyric in which the singer calls her rival a whore then has all this guilt.  The song becomes this monster hit, she refuses to play it after a while then brings it back and apologizes to the audience saying it is a song about misogyny.  I understood it in the way it was presented and women can be that guy all the time.  She was 18 when she wrote the song.  She grew up.  It's not difficult to discern the younger from older members of our community here.  

I remember people wanting Sansa to apologize to Tyrion because he'd been kind to her and she bailed on him when he needed her most but not the other.  Likewise I remember when rape was the only way an unmarried woman was allowed to have sex in books.  Ugly that, too bad it lasted so long.  I'm not sure when it happened, I think as a young person during the time, AIDS forced everyone to discuss sex beyond the dirty joke and stereotype.  When Starsky's (Paul Glasser) wife and child died of it we knew something was very wrong with the stories on the news.  He was a married sex symbol.  He was cool.  This was bogus.   No one should have to die for sex with anyone or because they did.  Bogus.  So yah, the early 90s sounds about right.  

I think my favorite thing now versus then and now really does begin when GOT ended is how tainted so many of the show first folk can be.  These folks who come introduced extraneously have a distinctly different texture to them than book first posters.  Our younger readers in general don't seem to like any or much of the old ways.  No, they don't get Hoster even a little bit, think Jon Arryn is a pedophile for marrying Lysa and deem Jaehaerys I a total bastard for his fathering of Saera after she showed her royal ass.  Blows my mind.  I think this stuff is rich and layered and delicious and they are outraged.  I wonder if these flourishes really detract from their experience or they are just having fun bitching?  I don't go to reddit because the one time I did go there they seemed to be raving lunatics.  Is this normal, all this moralizing over fictional characters presented as background or historical characters?   

There was a show-only blogger called Esther Dot, who at one point was hugely influential.  Her pieces on whore Daenerys vs madonna Sansa attracted a massive following.  She could not decide if Jon was just deceiving the whore, to get an army, or whether he had actually been corrupted by the whore, and had to be thrown into the wilderness to atone.

And, she believes herself to be a feminist.

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by SeanF

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

And, she believes herself to be a feminist.

[Curled Finger]

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

There was a show-only blogger called Esther Dot, who at one point was hugely influential.  Her pieces on whore Daenerys vs madonna Sansa attracted a massive following.  She could not decide if Jon was just deceiving the whore, to get an army, or whether he had actually been corrupted by the whore, and had to be thrown into the wilderness to atone.

And, she believes herself to be a feminist.

 

I recently worked for a third party administrator for dental benefits.  Was there for about a year.  Ran across no less than 4 people named Unique, 6 Khaleesi and 2 Daenaerys though they were not all spelled that way.  The show had amazing influence.  

I shake my head and just keep going back to people are so weird. 

[LongRider]

@Curled Finger  several years ago, on these boards the mods cracked down on threads discussing rape; whether if the wedding night of Dany and Drogo was rape, or if Sansa was raped by the Hound, or if LF would rape her, ect., ect.  What I remember about that is that part of their justification for the crackdown that there are folks on this board who have been raped, and so out of respect for them, the subject, while not banned, was very discouraged.  This was before the 'me too' movement.  The discussions could get real ugly real fast I'm glad that they addressed the issue.   I will report a gratuitous rape thread in a heartbeat now and not think twice about it.  

Also, the Madonna ~vs~ whore trope is revolting.  Let Dany enjoy her sex life, so what.  Perhaps Sansa will live long enough to have fun in the sack too.  

[Curled Finger]

11 minutes ago, LongRider said:

@Curled Finger  several years ago, on these boards the mods cracked down on threads discussing rape; whether if the wedding night of Dany and Drogo was rape, or if Sansa was raped by the Hound, or if LF would rape her, ect., ect.  What I remember about that is that part of their justification for the crackdown that there are folks on this board who have been raped, and so out of respect for them, the subject, while not banned, was very discouraged.  This was before the 'me too' movement.  The discussions could get real ugly real fast I'm glad that they addressed the issue.   I will report a gratuitous rape thread in a heartbeat now and not think twice about it.  

Also, the Madonna ~vs~ whore trope is revolting.  Let Dany enjoy her sex life, so what.  Perhaps Sansa will live long enough to have fun in the sack too.  

Quite a lot of the junk some of these topics are is revolting.  And the really stupid things people say.  But we've traveled that road before.  Yes, let Dany enjoy her sex life.  So long as we are enjoying the story as adults I don't much care what anyone else thinks.  The forum is voluntary, which is a thing we all take advantage of from time to time.  

[Alester Florent]

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Maybe I should feel sorry for these men but I don’t. I read a tweet from one of these idiotic incels saying something along the lines of, “beat your woman every now and then; it doesn’t matter if you don’t know why you’re doing it, she will”. 
All incels should get a wildling woman. Just saying.

From what I understand of the history of the term it was originally coined sympathetically, by a woman observing that some men were struggling to get dates for various abstruse reasons that may not have been their fault, and this was a sector of society that tended to get overlooked.

But then Gamergate and some other stuff happened, and a community grew up who embraced the "incel" label along with a cocktail of revolting and often plain weird misogyny. Don't feel sorry for anyone who calls themselves an incel. They're the slime mould on the bottom of humanity's refuse sack.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Moving along. . . 

I’ve seen some people claim that Stannis is less popular after S5 of GOT but that hasn’t been my experience. His stans still love him, they just justify what he did/will do by saying it’s to save the world. 

Has House Dayne always been so disproportionally popular?

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Moving along. . . 

I’ve seen some people claim that Stannis is less popular after S5 of GOT but that hasn’t been my experience. His stans still love him, they just justify what he did/will do by saying it’s to save the world. 
 

I’m not sure he’s less popular exactly. I think it’s more that some years back we had a handful of very vocal diehard Stan stans and they’re all gone now as far as I can tell. Much to @Craving Peaches relief, I imagine.

 

1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Has House Dayne always been so disproportionally popular?

Yes, as far as I remember. But imo that’s not really based on any specific merit of its members but a combination of cool details such as the unique Dawn, the praise Arthur gets, Ashara’s beauty and the mysteries around her life and (possible) death.

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Moving along. . . 

I’ve seen some people claim that Stannis is less popular after S5 of GOT but that hasn’t been my experience. His stans still love him, they just justify what he did/will do by saying it’s to save the world. 

Has House Dayne always been so disproportionally popular?

I hear less of Stannis the Mannis.

Perhaps if burning Shireen alive had actually gained him victory over the Boltons, he’d be more popular.  People would see it as performing a soldier’s duty.

As it is, it’s just seen as stupid act that hastened his defeat.

[The Bard of Banefort]

An impression that I never got from the book fandom but that the show fandom has made painfully clear is that a lot of people are really into incest. Which is kind of ironic, since everything else is considered “problematic” now.

[SeanF]

53 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

An impression that I never got from the book fandom but that the show fandom has made painfully clear is that a lot of people are really into incest. Which is kind of ironic, since everything else is considered “problematic” now.

Incest is popular in porn.  It only bothers me inasmuch as it harms others or involves rape.   Cersei/Jaime’s incest (and the attempted cover up) crippled a child and plunged a nation into war.  Aerys, Craster, Shae’s father all raped their respective partners.

Edited April 4, 2023 by SeanF

[The Bard of Banefort]

Very relevant Reddit thread hehe: 

 

[Alester Florent]

On 4/2/2023 at 9:24 PM, Curled Finger said:

 Ran across no less than 4 people named Unique, 

I keep coming back to how hilarious this is.

[The Bard of Banefort]

What was the reaction to Feast and Dance when they were first released? By the time I came around, they were being held up as masterpieces, but I don’t think that was how they were initially received.